Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

[Topper17]

Hi Jon,

Why would you think that? Lutherans could say, "I think that ALL western Christians, including Catholics, should have a western ecumenical, and do the same as you’ve listed above.
Then all of you could approach the ILC for a council. Perhaps that’s what the Eastern Orthodox Christians are waiting for from those of us in the west.

OK, I made a proposal, one which I think would actually work IF everyone could put aside their differences long enough to consider it. You don’t like my proposal I guess, unless the ILC could be in charge, which I guess is natural for an ILC member to think.

I am not sure that the ILC would be a logical choice to assume a leadership role in this proposed Ecumenical Council. Why do you think they should be put in that kind of position and do you think that Christianity Worldwide would accept the ILC in such a role?

If you think that the ILC would be willing to begin this process, then as far as I’m concerned, I would be all for it. Personally I don’t care HOW we all achieve doctrinal unity, just that we actually DO. So, with that I have to ask:

If the ILC were to be placed in a leadership role for such Council, how do you, as a member of the ILC, think it should be structured and organized? What would the details of such an ILC led Council look like?

IOW, the not-so-tongue-in-cheek proposal amounts to polemical nonsense. ISTM that the PCPCU is quite capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time, even though I know that some Catholic traditionalists don’t think so. They can talk to Lutherans, to Anglicans, to Orthodoxy at the same time, and not get confused. Similarly, ILC Lutherans can talk to Catholics and Anglicans and even our wayward siblings in the LWF without confusing the issues.

First of all Jon, there is absolutely no polemical nonsense. I believe that if nothing else, discussing the specifics as to any of these kinds of proposals will be helpful in achieving that unity, even if we eventually chose to pursue it in a different manner. I am FAR more interested in achieving the desired results than I am in the means, but by the same token, also believe that actually discussing the means, the specifics of such an effort can only help us achieve our goal.

You mention ILC/PCPCU discussions. I am not aware that there is anything substantial going on in that arena. Could you point me to where I can find the details of these discussions? I will suggest to you though that if you have any intentions of healing the wounds to unity that have separated you from the LWF, you probably should not refer to them as ‘wayward siblings’. That in fact, to me at least, seems sort of “polemical”.

Perhaps that is one reason you are not on the PCPCU.

I am not sure I understand this remark.

I personally think the most radical step that would have the most dramatic impact on the unity of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church would be a reconciliation between Rome and Holy Orthodoxy, but that doesn’t mean I think different groups should stop dialogue, even if it looks to apologists that no progress is being made.

Jon

I agree that that Orthodoxy/RCC unity would be wonderful and as you know, these two Churches are in dialogue. However, that leaves the rest of Christianity with NO role at least initially. The Protestant communities would not be responsible for doing anything as oart of this process. And of course, if the EOC/RCC thing doesn’t work out, your proposal lets the Protestant communities completely off the hook in terms have having to do anything. Rather than simply ‘wait around’, why not a solution which requires everyone to take part in trying to achieve some sort of unity.

BTW, personally, I think that this proposed Ecumenical Council would be best attained in stages. All Lutherans would meet in their own Council, heal their divisions doctrinally first. All Calvinists would do the same and on and on. And then ALL of the healed groups could meet together with the Orthodox and Roman Catholics in one Council, with each committing to abide and teach the doctrinal formulations achieved by the consensus. Criticize me if you must, but my personal opinion is that this process would have the best chance of achieving unity. Of course, everyone would have to be committed to potentially altering their doctrines to match up with those that the Holy Spirit would instill into the Council decisions.

Anyway, that’s my personal opinion and I think I have the right to express it.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Documentation please?

I heard it from John Martignoni who is very reliable.

Feel free to call in and ask him for the source.

ewtn.com/radio/weekday/ewtnopenline.asp

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi Lenten,

Thanks,

I am very aware of Matt Slick and his ‘regard’ for the Catholic Church. I guess people who think like that might not want to sign on for the proposed Council. It would be their loss.

As you mention, there are 5 new communities being formed each week, and while the various ecumenical efforts are great as far as they go, it doesn’t seem like they have enough positive momentum to reverse the course of dissention. In fact, it seems pretty obvious that the disunity continues to get worse despite of their efforts.

I realize that this ‘Council Thing’ is a pretty radical idea, and I also recognize that there would be HUGE barriers to its formation and success. But like everybody always says "All things are possible with God’. It seems to me that even discussing it and getting a little into the details about how this Council would be structured would be a step in the right direction in that it would at least get people thinking about reconciliation.

God Bless You Lenten, Topper

Thanks, Topper.

Complete agreement.

This is something that would be monumental and I think many of us would like to see happen.

But probably less than 1% chance of occurring, though It would take a lot of humility and patience on behalf of a lot of different people.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi Jon,

OK, I made a proposal, one which I think would actually work IF everyone could put aside their differences long enough to consider it. You don’t like my proposal I guess, unless the ILC could be in charge, which I guess is natural for an ILC member to think.

I am not sure that the ILC would be a logical choice to assume a leadership role in this proposed Ecumenical Council. Why do you think they should be put in that kind of position and do you think that Christianity Worldwide would accept the ILC in such a role?

If you think that the ILC would be willing to begin this process, then as far as I’m concerned, I would be all for it. Personally I don’t care HOW we all achieve doctrinal unity, just that we actually DO. So, with that I have to ask:

If the ILC were to be placed in a leadership role for such Council, how do you, as a member of the ILC, think it should be structured and organized? What would the details of such an ILC led Council look like?

First of all Jon, there is absolutely no polemical nonsense. I believe that if nothing else, discussing the specifics as to any of these kinds of proposals will be helpful in achieving that unity, even if we eventually chose to pursue it in a different manner. I am FAR more interested in achieving the desired results than I am in the means, but by the same token, also believe that actually discussing the means, the specifics of such an effort can only help us achieve our goal.

You mention ILC/PCPCU discussions. I am not aware that there is anything substantial going on in that arena. Could you point me to where I can find the details of these discussions? I will suggest to you though that if you have any intentions of healing the wounds to unity that have separated you from the LWF, you probably should not refer to them as ‘wayward siblings’. That in fact, to me at least, seems sort of “polemical”.

I am not sure I understand this remark.

I agree that that Orthodoxy/RCC unity would be wonderful and as you know, these two Churches are in dialogue. However, that leaves the rest of Christianity with NO role at least initially. The Protestant communities would not be responsible for doing anything as oart of this process. And of course, if the EOC/RCC thing doesn’t work out, your proposal lets the Protestant communities completely off the hook in terms have having to do anything. Rather than simply ‘wait around’, why not a solution which requires everyone to take part in trying to achieve some sort of unity.

BTW, personally, I think that this proposed** Ecumenical Council would be best attained in stages. All Lutherans would meet in their own Council, heal their divisions doctrinally first. All Calvinists would do the same and on and on**. And then ALL of the healed groups could meet together with the Orthodox and Roman Catholics in one Council, with each committing to abide and teach the doctrinal formulations achieved by the consensus. Criticize me if you must, but my personal opinion is that this process would have the best chance of achieving unity. Of course, everyone would have to be committed to potentially altering their doctrines to match up with those that the Holy Spirit would instill into the Council decisions.

Anyway, that’s my personal opinion and I think I have the right to express it.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

Key point right there.

Each particular denomination needs to first come to agreements from within it before they start communicating with anybody else.

And I do think we have a decent shot at reuniting with the eastern churches.

 

[alwayswill]

I heard it from John Martignoni who is very reliable.

Feel free to call in and ask him for the source.

ewtn.com/radio/weekday/ewtnopenline.asp

from the National Catholic Register

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations/#ixzz41Onaj4ct

“There are not—repeat with me—there are not 33,000 Protestant denominations. There are not anywhere close to it. It is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition, and it gets cited and recited by reflex; but it is based on a source that, even Catholics will have to concede, relies on too loose a definition of the word " denomination”

I am sure that you do not want to contribute to the spreading of a myth.

Thank you

 

[Lenten_ashes]

from the National Catholic Register

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations/#ixzz41Onaj4ct

“There are not—repeat with me—there are not 33,000 Protestant denominations. There are not anywhere close to it. It is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition, and it gets cited and recited by reflex; but it is based on a source that, even Catholics will have to concede, relies on too loose a definition of the word " denomination”

I am sure that you do not want to contribute to the spreading of a myth.

Thank you

I read that same article some time ago.

And I’m on record as saying there is not 40,000 or whatever the number gets placed at. If you eliminate Mormons, JW’s and all the subdivisions of such cults, etc, etc. Maybe combine some of the independent protestant churches that have similar doctrine. Probably closer to half that number.

But the reality is that even those cults are also a product of sola scriptura, which has led to massive divisions within Christendom, both orthodox and unorthodox.

You can pick up a bible and start a church right now with no credentials or meeting any kind of actual requirements, whatsoever. You can even get “ordained” on the internet. No authoritative church, no magisterium, means no restraints or ceiling on how far this can escalate.

So I do believe that new denominations start every week as Mr. Martignoni as asserted. The 5 per week was just a estimation on his behalf, though.

 

[commenter]

BTW, personally, I think that this proposed Ecumenical Council would be best attained in stages. All Lutherans would meet in their own Council, heal their divisions doctrinally first. All Calvinists would do the same and on and on. And then ALL of the healed groups could meet together with the Orthodox and Roman Catholics in one Council, with each committing to abide and teach the doctrinal formulations achieved by the consensus. Criticize me if you must, but my personal opinion is that this process would have the best chance of achieving unity. Of course, everyone would have to be committed to potentially altering their doctrines to match up with those that the Holy Spirit would instill into the Council decisions.

The problem is that there is no authority that can speak for ELCA and LCMS. They are moving farther apart. No “healing” is possible. Furthermore, no authority can speak for ELCA over time. It doesn’t have a permanent shape. It takes doctrinal and moral positions that, a few decades ago, it would have repudiated. Thus, an agreement made by RCC or LCMS, with the ELCA of 2016 wouldn’t be in effect in 2024, because ELCA would have shifted. The only way ELCA might, possibly, come to agreement, would be with other mainline denominations, because they are all more or less shifting in the same direction, following the secular culture.

In other words, the liberal Lutherans, might, possibly, bind with liberal Presbyterians, with TEC, and so on. But they might not all want to shift at the same pace as the UCC for instance. It’s not so much that they are “altering their doctrines” as they are all moving away from any fixed doctrine. The Coucil of the Protestant Left might come to an internal agreement, but would be totally incompatible with the RCC and EO. In fact, the internal agreement, or “healing” would need to be revised every few years. Or months.

The Protestant Right shows much more promise of compatibility with the RCC, but little chance of coming together themselves. They are committed to fixed doctrines, but different ones. I doubt they could agree who should be invited to a Council of the Protestant Right. Some groups would be labelled as doctrinally controversial, bordering on cults. Other groups would be accused of being compromised, a slip-slidin’ on social issues - have your heard the term “Evanjellycal”? They would never agree on the guest list. (But with God, and GKC, and JonNC, it is not impossible), so I may be wrong.

As much as I deeply admire those individuals who stand with us on prolife, marriage, and religious liberty, I also know similar denominations that once stood firm on those issues now stand on the other side of the street, protecting the “clinic”.

 

[MaryT777]

Key point right there.

Each particular denomination needs to first come to agreements from within it before they start communicating with anybody else.

And I do think we have a decent shot at reuniting with the eastern churches.

Well said, and I would love to see us united with the Eastern Churches. Thumbs up back at ya,
and
:tiphat:

 

[JustaServant]

I heard it from John Martignoni who is very reliable.

Feel free to call in and ask him for the source.

ewtn.com/radio/weekday/ewtnopenline.asp

No.
I am asking you and Topper for the source.
You two are the people making the charge.
Prove it please.

 

[Topper17]

Documentation please?

From the Catholic Answers Tract, which is I am sure extremely well researched and fair:
**
"The Great Heresies**

Protestantism (16th Century)
**
Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only). **
**
The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, **which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant".

Topper: According to my math, 270 denominations per year is roughly 5.19 per week. I said 5 per week so I actually understated the Official Catholic Answers figure. From now on I will use the higher figure.

 

[Peter_J]

from the National Catholic Register

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations/#ixzz41Onaj4ct

IMO “need to” is a bit strong, but FWIW the people who say that typically cause me to simply move on to the next blogger, or forum-post, or whatever.

 

[alwayswill]

I read that same article some time ago.

And I’m on record as saying there is not 40,000 or whatever the number gets placed at. If you eliminate Mormons, JW’s and all the subdivisions of such cults, etc, etc. Maybe combine some of the independent protestant churches that have similar doctrine. Probably closer to half that number.

But the reality is that even those cults are also a product of sola scriptura, which has led to massive divisions within Christendom, both orthodox and unorthodox.

You can pick up a bible and start a church right now with no credentials or meeting any kind of actual requirements, whatsoever. You can even get “ordained” on the internet. No authoritative church, no magisterium, means no restraints or ceiling on how far this can escalate.

So I do believe that new denominations start every week as Mr. Martignoni as asserted. The 5 per week was just a estimation on his behalf, though.

I thank God I live in a country where that is possible!

Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

What should be done the guy declaring that his trailer is the Church of Harley- riding Eggplant- farmers of Vineland, New Jersey?
Should it really be forbidden?

Do you think the guy declaring that God will make your life wonderful is you send him $100 should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that God will end the world a week from next Tuesday should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that women are not allowed to cut their hair and are never to allowed work should really be forbidden?

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.
Because the alternative is that the “State” will only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few.

 

[Peter_J]

I thank God I live in a country where that is possible!

Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

What should be done the guy declaring that his trailer is the Church of Harley- riding Eggplant- farmers of Vineland, New Jersey?
Should it really be forbidden?

Do you think the guy declaring that God will make your life wonderful is you send him $100 should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that God will end the world a week from next Tuesday should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that women are not allowed to cut their hair and are never to allowed work should really be forbidden?

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.
Because the alternative is that the “State” will only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few.

I’m not sure if we can forbid those things, but I’ll call my congressman as soon as I get off the Internet.

 

[Peter_J]

Heh, just kidding. I can make a call while I’m on the Internet. Btw, a belated Welcome to CAF and the NCRf.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

From the Catholic Answers Tract, which is I am sure extremely well researched and fair:
**
"The Great Heresies**

Protestantism (16th Century)
**
Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only). **
**
The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, **which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant".

Topper: According to my math, 270 denominations per year is roughly 5.19 per week. I said 5 per week so I actually understated the Official Catholic Answers figure. From now on I will use the higher figure.

I trust Martignoni as I have researched much of his claims and they have always been substantiated.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I thank God I live in a country where that is possible!

Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

What should be done the guy declaring that his trailer is the Church of Harley- riding Eggplant- farmers of Vineland, New Jersey?
Should it really be forbidden?

Do you think the guy declaring that God will make your life wonderful is you send him $100 should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that God will end the world a week from next Tuesday should really be forbidden?

Do you think the church declaring that women are not allowed to cut their hair and are never to allowed work should really be forbidden?

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.
Because the alternative is that the “State” will only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few.

No, I’m a veteran and love the freedom we have in this country.

And of course many of these protestant churches are good and fruitful. And I know the Holy Spirit works in them as well as I have seen it with my own eyes.

I’m just saying that the historical church is apostolic and was established in such a way for a reason. And even then we had some heretics throughout the ages that needed to be expelled. Now it’s just totally out of control, imo.

 

[JonNC]

From the Catholic Answers Tract, which is I am sure extremely well researched and fair:
**
"The Great Heresies**

Protestantism (16th Century)
**
Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only). **
**
The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, **which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant".

Topper: According to my math, 270 denominations per year is roughly 5.19 per week. I said 5 per week so I actually understated the Official Catholic Answers figure. From now on I will use the higher figure.

Then you should have no problem naming them.

Jon

 

[PJM]

Its funny you mention this return to “The Early Church” that some protestants speak of. That was me I wanted to be in the church that most closely resembled and taught like the early Church. I was attending a Bible study where the protestant minister said that the early church got together in peoples homes. Aka, house churches. While that may be true and he was trying to be true to doing things the way the early church did, they would not have been studying The Bible, as it did not exist as it does today yet and we would have been celebrating The Eucharist and I would have not been able to participate in The Eucharist anyways because I was unbaptized at the time believing that Baptism was nothing more than a public statement of faith and not necessary for salvation as if Scripture says “Repent… and if you want to… get baptized, but it is not really necessary. Just love God really and you will be fine, baptism is good, but you do not need to do it to be saved”

I really did not want to give up Sola Scriptura. It was too comfortable of a security blanket for me. As long as I believed only what The Bible said, I was okay. Yet, I had no way to be sure that what I thought The Bible said was correct.

GREAT post! THANKS,

The PROBLEM with S S is that its advocates DON"T!

They only believe what they choose to accept {without altering their comfort levels I assume?}, or what they are able to personally translate in a manner acceptable to their own comfort zones.

Mt 16:15-19
John 17: 17–20
John 6:47-57
John 20:1-23
Mt 28:19-20

Is a short list of evidence of this.

God Bless you; and WELCOME HOME!

PJM

 

[PJM]

from the National Catholic Register

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations/#ixzz41Onaj4ct

“There are not—repeat with me—there are not 33,000 Protestant denominations. There are not anywhere close to it. It is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition, and it gets cited and recited by reflex; but it is based on a source that, even Catholics will have to concede, relies on too loose a definition of the word " denomination”

I am sure that you do not want to contribute to the spreading of a myth.

Thank you

OK, I WANT to agree with you; so HOW MANY ARE THERE?

God Bless you,

PJM

 

[PJM]

I read that same article some time ago.

And I’m on record as saying there is not 40,000 or whatever the number gets placed at. If you eliminate Mormons, JW’s and all the subdivisions of such cults, etc, etc. Maybe combine some of the independent protestant churches that have similar doctrine. Probably closer to half that number.

But the reality is that even those cults are also a product of sola scriptura, which has led to massive divisions within Christendom, both orthodox and unorthodox.

You can pick up a bible and start a church right now with no credentials or meeting any kind of actual requirements, whatsoever. You can even get “ordained” on the internet. No authoritative church, no magisterium, means no restraints or ceiling on how far this can escalate.

So I do believe that new denominations start every week as Mr. Martignoni as asserted. The 5 per week was just a estimation on his behalf, though.

GREAT POST!

And I agree with you!

God Bless you,
PJM