Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

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Hi Michael,
Is 3 Maccabees part of Sacred Scripture? I ask because there are Bishops in the Church which hold it and other to be part of the canon of scripture.

Jon
Hey Jon, I believe the Church has not included it in the Canon of Sacred Scripture. This means it is not guaranteed as Innerrant. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is not. Probably the same as the Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas.

They may be free from error, yet not intended to be included as Sacred Scripture, and so given the highest level of authority and venerated as the Word of the Lord.
 
My Friend

Your statement contracts EVERYTHING Christianity beliefs about the Bible. PLEASE explain yourself:eek:
I stated “My understating of any writing breathed out by God does not determines its authority or its inerrancy.”

or to state it another way:

My (or anyone’s) misunderstanding Scripture does not make Scripture less of an authority

My (or anyone’s) misunderstanding Scripture does mean Scripture is in error.

Do you agree with that?
Is that in agreement with Christianity?
 
My understating of any writing breathed out by God does not determines its authority or its inerrancy.
Indeed, not for any of us. But it is curious that you state that you believe the scriptures are 100% true yet you seem to set aside so many verses.
it seems you are confusing being correct with being infallible.

Is it the teaching of the Catholic Church that Catholic Priests, who are in full-agreement with the Catholic Church, are infallible?

I don’t think so
Any of us can benefit from the gift of infallibility, which is given to the Church. To the extent that we embrace and teach what has been infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit, we can all benefit from that gift.
I want to ask you this a plainly as I can;

Is it possible that a writing breathed of God Himself to be fallible?
Fallibity requires action - an act of the intellect and will.

It is possible that a writer of Sacred Scripture is infallible while writing it. The product is inspired and inerrant.
Just so you know what I proclaim.

Is it possible that a writing breathed of God Himself to be fallible?
NO ! ** It is absolutely 100 % impossible** for any writing breathed of God Himself to be fallible
It is impossible for God to do anything fallible. Scripture does not have an intellect or will, so the Holy Text does not “act” in a way that could make fallibility possible.
Code:
yes:
This is a widely accepted statement on the “protestant” view of infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition
bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
There are so many versions of Sola Scriptura it is important to focus on something specific.

Just because a concept is “widely accepted” does not make it accurate. This statement of faith assings qualities to scripture that scripture does not posess. These qualities belong to persons. Scripture cannot exercise authority, because exercising authority is an activity of persons. This is one of the greatest stumbling blocks of SS. People exercise the authority, and mistakenly believe it comes from the Scripture.
 
so you agree that God is the author of Scripture?
Why then I say it I am challenged?
Because your statement precluded the human element.
My (or anyone’s) misunderstanding Scripture does not make Scripture less of an authority

My (or anyone’s) misunderstanding Scripture does mean Scripture is in error.

Do you agree with that?
Is that in agreement with Christianity?
In part. Scripture is authorative, but people do exercise authority with it (or sometimes in contradiction it). Sola Scriptura is one such exercise - a practice that is found no where in Scripture, but created outside of Scripture for the purpose of rejecting those who were put in the position of authority by Christ.
 
Hey Jon, I believe the Church has not included it in the Canon of Sacred Scripture. This means it is not guaranteed as Innerrant. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is not. Probably the same as the Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas.

They may be free from error, yet not intended to be included as Sacred Scripture, and so given the highest level of authority and venerated as the Word of the Lord.
I agree, yet there are parts of the Church, the one True Church, that do believe that 3 Macc is part of the canon. My point is that, even today, even after Trent, there is not unity on which books belong in the canon, even excluding protestant groups.

Jon
 
I agree, yet there are parts of the Church, the one True Church, that do believe that 3 Macc is part of the canon.
Well its a fact that it is not… 😃
My point is that, even today, even after Trent, there is not unity on which books belong in the canon, even excluding protestant groups.
point understood. Maybe there is no individual who assets 100% on all matters? Hopefully we have the noble character to refrain from our “questioning/doubting” so not to be opposed to the Faith.
 
In this forum; it is my intention to accurately present the views of Sola Scriptura practicing Protestants.
We believe Scripture is infallible and inerrant because of what Scripture is (its the characteristics or attributes)
Not because of what is Scripture. (which books are Scripture)
I have a question…

Is it possible that we could be wrong, and some of the books in the Bible don’t belong in the Bible, and some that aren’t in the Bible actually belong there? What if we are wrong, that James, or Hebrews, or Revelations were not Inspired, and the letters of Clement were? How do we know we got it right, for certain… to say, “This book, is the written Word of God, and therefore it is Inerrant and Infallible.”???
 
Because your statement precluded the human element.

In part. Scripture is authorative, but people do exercise authority with it (or sometimes in contradiction it). Sola Scriptura is one such exercise - a practice that is found no where in Scripture, but created outside of Scripture for the purpose of rejecting those who were put in the position of authority by Christ.
Hi G,

As you see it , so it is for you.

I see it as the only avenue a magisterium allowed for a reformer to reject, purge leaven (bad doctrine). Another words, SS arouse straight out of the church setting, not from without.

What did Christ have to finally rest on, from the context of being in the one true religion He set up at the time (Judaism), in combating the leaven? Jesus did not knock their authority but what they had done wrongly with it. Scripture was Hid final norm, within the context of Judaism, not from without. Normative, corrective, defensive, offensive rule was and still is scripture, as it was written, for and within God’s dispensational authority.

Blessings
 
I have a question…

Is it possible that we could be wrong, and some of the books in the Bible don’t belong in the Bible, and some that aren’t in the Bible actually belong there? What if we are wrong, that James, or Hebrews, or Revelations were not Inspired, and the letters of Clement were? How do we know we got it right, for certain… to say, “This book, is the written Word of God, and therefore it is Inerrant and Infallible.”???
Note: the context of the previous discussions were about the attributes or characteristics of Scripture (iow: “what Scripture is”)

Your question addressees a different topic of “what is Scripture”

but I’ll answer your question anyway.
In this forum; it is my intention to accurately present the views of Sola Scriptura practicing Protestants.

yes it is “possible” we could be wrong (because we are not infallible)
But I do think we got it right.
Not because of man but;
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.
My faith is in God protecting His Word
 
Note: the context of the previous discussions were about the attributes or characteristics of Scripture (iow: “what Scripture is”)

Your question addressees a different topic of “what is Scripture”
Actually, it’s “How do we know the Canon is right?”
yes it is “possible” we could be wrong (because we are not infallible)
Ok. So it might be God’s Word, or it could be a lot of Truth with some errors which man inserted?
But I do think we got it right.
Who got it right, and what is the measure to be confident in that?
Not because of man…
This is Catholic
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.
How does God being sovereign help us Confirm the Canon for the whole Church?
My faith is in God protecting His Word
Amen. This is Catholic!
 
Note: the context of the previous discussions were about the attributes or characteristics of Scripture (iow: “what Scripture is”)

Your question addressees a different topic of “what is Scripture”

but I’ll answer your question anyway.
In this forum; it is my intention to accurately present the views of Sola Scriptura practicing Protestants.

yes it is “possible” we could be wrong (because we are not infallible)
But I do think we got it right.
Not because of man but;
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.
My faith is in God protecting His Word
The problem with this answer, as I see it, is that, as I said to Michael earlier, that different communions within the Church have differing views of what books belong. So, when you say that you think we got it right, which “we” do you mean?

Jon
 
Indeed, not for any of us. But it is curious that you state that you believe the scriptures are 100% true yet you seem to set aside so many verses…
I’m not aware of any verses that I set aside as not 100% true.

For ex: “the Kingdom of heaven is like…”
The simile is true

for ex: Jesus stating that “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
Is hyperbole making the true point that nothing will stop the proclaiming "“Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
 
The problem with this answer, as I see it, is that, as I said to Michael earlier, that different communions within the Church have differing views of what books belong. So, when you say that you think we got it right, which “we” do you mean?

Jon
The NT canon by Christians
The OT canon by the Jews
 
Actually, it’s “How do we know the Canon is right?”

Ok. So it might be God’s Word, or it could be a lot of Truth with some errors which man inserted?
Who got it right, and what is the measure to be confident in that?
This is Catholic
How does God being sovereign help us Confirm the Canon for the whole Church?
Amen. This is Catholic!
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.

The Bible came from God’s sovereign Will.
examples of God’s will
like Cyrus (Isaiah 45)
“For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me………I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,”

like Pharaoh: (Exodus 9:15)
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

like Pilate (John 19)
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above

Did God use Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate to accomplish His will?
Yes, absolutely.

Were the actions of Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate in accordance with the sovereign plan of God?
Yes, absolutely.

Did Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate do EXACTLY wanted God wanted to be done?
YES, absolutely

Are Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate infallible?
NO!

The POINT is that God uses all types of people to accomplish his Sovereign Will; that does NOT mean those kingdoms, institutions, or people are infallible!

This is not a rhetorical questions to you.
Do you think God allowed any books to be left out or to be added by mistake?
 
I have a question…

Is it possible that we could be wrong, and some of the books in the Bible don’t belong in the Bible, and some that aren’t in the Bible actually belong there? What if we are wrong, that James, or Hebrews, or Revelations were not Inspired, and the letters of Clement were? How do we know we got it right, for certain… to say, “This book, is the written Word of God, and therefore it is Inerrant and Infallible.”???
It is a very good question. Why are you shouting? I have always wondered what is in the Didache that is not consistent with Church teaching. I wonder if it was not included because it was directed to the clergy, rather than laypeople?
Code:
Hi G,
As you see it , so it is for you.
I don’t think I am the only one. In reading the writings of Luther, it becomes quite clear (and more so over the years) that he had increasing disrespect and rejection for the authority of the Catholic Church. He was a dedicated Christian with a love of Scripture, and when looking for another authority that would function more clearly and without guile, Scripture was all he could find to replace the Magesterium. He did not even offer himself for the job, though he did get pretty presumptuous with his authority in some things. I think he genuinely believed that the Scriptures could and would speak for themselves, and get the Church back on track. He was quite appalled and dismayed when this did not turn out to be true. His conflicts with Zwingli and Calvin over the Real Presence were heartbreaking for him.

Luther was by no means the first to advocate reform and a better adherance to the content of the Scriptures. Wycliffe questioned the pope’s authority and attacked indulgences and corruption in the church. He said the Bible, not the church, was the ultimate religious authority. He translated it into English, which ultimately got him killed.
Desiderius Erasmus was a Northern Humanist priest. He wanted to reform the church, and wrote a book, “The Praise of Folly,” a satire of society, including corruption in the church. His attacks on corruption in the church added to people’s desire to leave Catholicism. then ther was Tyndale and Jan Hus, King Henry VIII, Tyndale, John Knox, .etc, etc. Why was Luther able to light the tinderbox when these others, also willing to give their lives for their convictions, did not?

It was a convergence of many factors, including the invention of the printing press, so the message could be carried further and faster, and the political and economic climate at the time. The German princes were eager to get out from under the oppresson of the Catholic hierarchy and saw their chance in Luther’s work.
I see it as the only avenue a magisterium allowed for a reformer to reject, purge leaven (bad doctrine). Another words, SS arouse straight out of the church setting, not from without.
Oh I agree 100%. I often think, had I been living at the time, I would have been one of the first to pounce on criticizing the corruption. My early departure from the Catholic faith into which I was baptized occurred because I did not see in my family or my community the living faith. I was starving for an authentic Christianity, as were all these people that advocated Scripture as the sole authority. In fact, I had never been taught to read the scriptures and did not even have a bible. I fell in with my Baptist siblings, who taught me to read, pray, and live the scriptures.

Despite my experiential learning of the value of the Scriptures, it became clear to me that the Scriptures do not have the properties of persons. They cannot be a “sole authority” for that reason. SS puts every reader in the position to interpret and become their own authority.

JonNC, who is posting on this thread, espouses SS, but he does so with a Catholic attitude. He acknowledges that the Church is responsible for doctrine, and that accurate understandings of what is written is consistent with the Sacred Tradition of the Church (creeds, confessions & councils). This concept is ever so rare, or absent among most of those who espouse this practice.
What did Christ have to finally rest on, from the context of being in the one true religion He set up at the time (Judaism), in combating the leaven? Jesus did not knock their authority but what they had done wrongly with it. Scripture was Hid final norm, within the context of Judaism, not from without. Normative, corrective, defensive, offensive rule was and still is scripture, as it was written, for and within God’s dispensational authority.
I will certainly agree that Jesus used Scripture authoritatively in all these ways, and that it is to continue to be used in this way. But Scripture cannot “rule” in the sense that it can made decisions. For that, He sent them to the Church.
 
The NT canon by Christians
The OT canon by the Jews
But many Christian communions do not leave the decision about the OT to the Jews, and there are many important writings to be found in 1 Macc, and Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, and even the Prayer of Manasseh.

And even among Christian communions, such as Lutherans, there is a recognition that the early Church held many opinions about some of the NT books, and honor that history of the Fathers by using them in different ways, even while holding them all as inspired.

Jon
 
But many Christian communions do not leave the decision about the OT to the Jews, and there are many important writings to be found in 1 Macc, and Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, and even the Prayer of Manasseh.

And even among Christian communions, such as Lutherans, there is a recognition that the early Church held many opinions about some of the NT books, and honor that history of the Fathers by using them in different ways, even while holding them all as inspired.

Jon
Historically accurate and important writings does not necessarily mean God breathed.
Truthful and profound insights does not necessarily mean God breathed.

Even Luke’s Gospel is not God breathed BECAUSE it is accurate
 
Note: the context of the previous discussions were about the attributes or characteristics of Scripture (iow: “what Scripture is”)

Your question addressees a different topic of “what is Scripture”

yes it is “possible” we could be wrong (because we are not infallible)
But I do think we got it right.
Not because of man but;
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.
My faith is in God protecting His Word
If it is possible that we did not get it right, what confidence can we have? Sola Scriptura “assumes” a canon. That means, it acknowledges by default what you are saying you believe - that the Holy Spirit protected His word by using the gift of infallibility to bring the Church to choose the correct books by divine intervention.

Catholics believe that God fulfilled His promise:

…10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." I sa 55:11.

The same gift of infallibilty that enabled the writers to pen what the Holy Spirit intended, helped the Church to form and to preserve the canon.
The NT canon by Christians
The OT canon by the Jews
If this were true, why is it that Catholics use the OT used by Jesus and the Apostles (Septuagint) while Protestants use the OT canon held by the Jews who rejected Jesus? Now we are back to the same question Jon asked. Who are “we”?
I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.

The Bible came from God’s sovereign Will.
Yes, Catholics believe this also. This is how we understand the gift of infalliblity. Jesus promised that He would remain with His Holy Bride, the Church, and He would send HIs Spirit to guide her into “all truth”.

Your examples seem to indicate that God created the canon despite the Catholic Church, rather than “through” the Catholic Church. That perhaps God worked through the corruption of the Catholic Church to create a canon even though Catholics had gone off the mark and were actually against God. Is this what you believe?
The POINT is that God uses all types of people to accomplish his Sovereign Will; that does NOT mean those kingdoms, institutions, or people are infallible!
I agree. But God did not promise to any of these examples that He would send His Holy Spirit to guide them into all Truth. Are you saying that Jesus did not keep His promise?
 
If it is possible that we did not get it right, what confidence can we have? Sola Scriptura “assumes” a canon. That means, it acknowledges by default what you are saying you believe - that the Holy Spirit protected His word by using the gift of infallibility to bring the Church to choose the correct books by divine intervention.

Catholics believe that God fulfilled His promise:

…10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." I sa 55:11.

The same gift of infallibilty that enabled the writers to pen what the Holy Spirit intended, helped the Church to form and to preserve the canon.

If this were true, why is it that Catholics use the OT used by Jesus and the Apostles (Septuagint) while Protestants use the OT canon held by the Jews who rejected Jesus? Now we are back to the same question Jon asked. Who are “we”?

Yes, Catholics believe this also. This is how we understand the gift of infalliblity. Jesus promised that He would remain with His Holy Bride, the Church, and He would send HIs Spirit to guide her into “all truth”.

Your examples seem to indicate that God created the canon despite the Catholic Church, rather than “through” the Catholic Church. That perhaps God worked through the corruption of the Catholic Church to create a canon even though Catholics had gone off the mark and were actually against God. Is this what you believe?

I agree. But God did not promise to any of these examples that He would send His Holy Spirit to guide them into all Truth. Are you saying that Jesus did not keep His promise?
I agree with Jame White’s description of SS
aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2012/11/15/does-the-bible-teach-sola-scriptura-vintage/

First of all, it is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John, or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world could not contain it. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church. We do not need to know the color of Thomas’ eyes. We do not need to know the menu of each meal of the Apostolic band for the Scriptures to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.
**
Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church’s authority to teach God’s truth.** I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The Church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

Thirdly,** it is not a denial that God’s Word has been spoken.** Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the Apostles proved their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2, and 18:28, and John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claimed to be Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the Old Testament.

And, finally, sola scriptura** is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church.**
-James White—
 
Thank you, this is helpful. At least we can be on the same page about the subject!
Code:
 But the Bible does not have to   be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the Church.
I disagree. The New Testament was never intended to be a collection of documents to provide sole rule for the faith of the Church. Jesus did not come to write a book, but to establish His One Body the Church. He placed the authority with persons, not books, however Holy. He did this because the Church is, in part, and human institution, and the NT could not possibly be large enough to address all of our needs.
Code:
Secondly, it is not a denial of the Church's authority to teach God's  truth.
I Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The truth is in Jesus Christ and in His Word. The Church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof.

I am glad we are in agreement on this point. So, how is “church” defined?
Code:
The Church does not add revelation or   rule over Scripture. The Church being the bride of Christ, listens to   the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.
Catholics do not consider it “ruling over” but recognize that revelation was given to the Church as well as documented in the Scriptures. Both the Word of God that is living and active in the Church, and the Word of God penned in the Scripture are parts of God’s revelation.

The CC believes that the public revelation by God of Himself closed with the death of the last Apostle, so no revelation is “added” by the Church. The Church has the duty of applying the revelation to the present day and time.
Code:
Thirdly,** it is not a denial that God's Word has been spoken.**  Apostolic  preaching was authoritative in and of itself. Yet, the  Apostles proved  their message from Scripture, as we see in Acts 17:2,  and 18:28, and  John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who  claimed to be  Apostles, Revelation 2:2. The Apostles were not afraid to  demonstrate  the consistency between their teaching and the Old  Testament.
Yes. The issue is that Sola Scriptura assumes that God’s word is no longer present in the Church, that Apostolic Teaching, not found in Scripture, exists. So it must, by nature, deny that Christ kept His promise to preserve HIs Word that was alive in the Church. Some versions of SS actually claim that all of what the Apostles believed and taught is found in Scripture.
And, finally, sola scriptura** is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church**.
-James White—
Yes, but how does one determine what HIs leading is? Does the Holy Spirit guide the Church in a direction opposite of what He did before? Was He asleep at some point, and failed to guide, so the Church went off the rails?
 
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