Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

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nonkely said:
On another note, we may not live in your idea of the “apostolic era” but we have the apostolic lineage of persons responsible for teaching God’s Word without change or manipulation–straight from Christ himself. He handed the keys of authority of The Church to St. Peter. (Matt. 16:13-19) Every Pope in succession since St. Peter holds the keys of authority to The Church. Every Cardinal, Bishop, Priest and Deacon of the Catholic Church can trace their ordination lineage back to the original Apostles. So in a sense, the Apostolic era will never end. The teachings of the Early Church Fathers continue to this day in all of their authenticity–from the oral tradition to the written Word. Feels nice to be a part of the perpetual apostolic era, doesn’t it?
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Feels incredible.

I was in awe when I got to meet the Bishop, not because of who he is, but because of the great office that he holds.

Nobody will ever destroy the Catholic church and it will never fold and conform to the world on matters of morality like everybody else is. Knowing that makes me feel a great deal of comfort.
 
I was raised protestant. A bible-believing one. I didn´t know there were Christians who didn´t believe in sola scriptura. Not for a long time.

The bible has never misled me but it has confused me. It is not easy to read. I focused on Proverbs because it was easy to meditate on those verses. The most difficult passages for me was when Jesus spoke. It was like English class all over again, trying to make out all these metaphors and stuff. Why couldn´t the bible just say what it means so we can follow it easier!? Is there a point to the shadiness, confusion and sometimes what can seem contradictory?

If the bible was either non-fiction, ficton, poetic, historical etc. it would be so much easier for us to make out. No, instead it is an array of all types of categories within one giant grouping of books.

My point in saying all this is just that sola scriptura for many has been the only way to go. When you don´t have a giant church backing you up, you do your best to translate scripture for yourself. Leaving the translating up to the church, for many protestants, is just a sign of laziness and not diving in head first to research scripture for yourself.

I have come to realize that I am not alone with my bible anymore. It all started with one question… who gave us the bible in the first place? Believe it or not but I had just envisioned it lying there after Jesus ascended into heaven. The Church was the missing link for me.

The bible has no birth without the Church. The Church has no birth without Jesus. They go hand in hand.
 
StMariaMary said:
I was raised protestant. A bible-believing one. I didn´t know there were Christians who didn´t believe in sola scriptura. Not for a long time.

The bible has never misled me but it has confused me. It is not easy to read. I focused on Proverbs because it was easy to meditate on those verses. The most difficult passages for me was when Jesus spoke. It was like English class all over again, trying to make out all these metaphors and stuff. Why couldn´t the bible just say what it means so we can follow it easier!? Is there a point to the shadiness, confusion and sometimes what can seem contradictory?

If the bible was either non-fiction, ficton, poetic, historical etc. it would be so much easier for us to make out. No, instead it is an array of all types of categories within one giant grouping of books.

My point in saying all this is just that sola scriptura for many has been the only way to go. When you don´t have a giant church backing you up, you do your best to translate scripture for yourself. Leaving the translating up to the church, for many protestants, is just a sign of laziness and not diving in head first to research scripture for yourself.

I have come to realize that I am not alone with my bible anymore. It all started with one question… who gave us the bible in the first place? Believe it or not but I had just envisioned it lying there after Jesus ascended into heaven. The Church was the missing link for me.

The bible has no birth without the Church. The Church has no birth without Jesus. They go hand in hand.
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Appreciate your comment.

Studying the formation of the canon will likely make any honest person at least consider Catholicism.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Appreciate your comment.

Studying the formation of the canon will likely make any honest person at least consider Catholicism.
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Just to clarify:
would you agree that Scripture is Scripture the moment it is penned?
 
alwayswill said:
Just to clarify:
would you agree that Scripture is Scripture the moment it is penned?
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Just to clarify, what is your understanding of 2 Peter 3:16?

I believe John 1:1.

The Word of God has always existed.

It is made available to us when it is spoken orally or penned.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Just to clarify, what is your understanding of 2 Peter 3:16?

I believe John 1:1.

The Word of God has always existed.

It is made available to us when it is spoken orally or penned.
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This is most certainly true. Scripture can be scripture when it is seen, as in icons, stained glass, etc. It was through visuals as well as the reading of scripture that people learned of the faith for centuries. And it was/is in the Church that people find word and sacrament.
We also know that the scripture cannot contradict itself, and Tradition cannot contradict scripture. It is these two truths that sola scriptura rests on. We further depend on the Church to establish doctrine and teach recognizing this principle.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
This is most certainly true. Scripture can be scripture when it is seen, as in icons, stained glass, etc. It was through visuals as well as the reading of scripture that people learned of the faith for centuries. And it was/is in the Church that people find word and sacrament.
We also know that the scripture cannot contradict itself, and Tradition cannot contradict scripture. It is these two truths that sola scriptura rests on. We further depend on the Church to establish doctrine and teach recognizing this principle.

Jon
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I appreciate the good sense and rational of Lutherans such as yourself. 👍

Illiteracy was a huge problem throughout the ages so those things you mentioned were instrumental.

God is Truth and all Truth that truly is, subsists in Him who is the Truth. He reveals Himself to us in many different ways. I have no earthly idea how a atheist can spend 5 minutes at the beach without believing in some divine force…a unmoved mover.
 
JonNC said:
This is most certainly true. Scripture can be scripture when it is seen, as in icons, stained glass, etc. It was through visuals as well as the reading of scripture that people learned of the faith for centuries. And it was/is in the Church that people find word and sacrament.
We also know that the scripture cannot contradict itself, and Tradition cannot contradict scripture. It is these two truths that sola scriptura rests on. We further depend on the Church to establish doctrine and teach recognizing this principle.
Jon
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Jon, as always, has expressed himself well how sola scriptura is used and added a bit of Luther there at the beginning 👍. Another poster earlier (couldn’t find the exact posting) defined sola scriptura as a doctrine, but that’s not true. Sola scriptura is a principle - one that denominations use as a way to test doctrines and teachings from other denominations. Case in point, we talked about the Westboro Baptist Church earlier in the thread - Fred Phelps, used the Scriptures to develop the teachings of his congregation which was then used on and toward others in a way we all knew was not God’s teachings. We understood his gross misuse of God’s Word as wrong because the “doctrine” that Phelps taught would never stand up to testing against other scripture.

I pretty much said what Jon did but in my roundabout way of trying to communicate something. :eek:

God be with you all,

Rita
 
Lenten_ashes said:
I appreciate the good sense and rational of Lutherans such as yourself. 👍

Illiteracy was a huge problem throughout the ages so those things you mentioned were instrumental.

God is Truth and all Truth that truly is, subsists in Him who is the Truth. He reveals Himself to us in many different ways. I have no earthly idea how a atheist can spend 5 minutes at the beach without believing in some divine force…a unmoved mover.
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👍 Amen!

Rita
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Just to clarify, what is your understanding of 2 Peter 3:16?

I believe John 1:1.

The Word of God has always existed.

It is made available to us when it is spoken orally or penned.
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perhaps I need to expound on the question I asked: which was "would you agree that Scripture is Scripture the moment it is penned? "

What I meant was; at the very moment Moses wrote Genesis, or Isaiah wrote his book, or Paul wrote Romans; were those writings actually Scripture or not?

I also believe John 1: 1 : The word (logos) has always existed: but I am asking about writings breathed out by God (graphe theopneustos)

Even though you did not answer my question: I will gladly answer yours about 2 Peter 3:16
2 quick points:
  1. some people ( ignorant and unstable) distort Paul’s writings
  2. the sentence construction shows that Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture
I am hoping that you will consider answering my question.
Thank you
 
JonNC said:
This is most certainly true. Scripture can be scripture when it is seen, as in icons, stained glass, etc. …

Jon
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JonNC; can you expand on that statement please?

Did you mean the Scripture message can presented or understood in icons, stained glass, etc
or did you mean that you consider icons, stained glass, etc to be Scripture?

thank you
 
Lenten_ashes said:
J

The Word of God has always existed.

It is made available to us when it is spoken orally or penned.
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It is made available to us as Scripture when it is spoken orally or penned, and canonized. That is why we now have many gospels, but only 4 Gospels.
 
alwayswill said:
JonNC; can you expand on that statement please?

Did you mean the Scripture message can presented or understood in icons, stained glass, etc
or did you mean that you consider icons, stained glass, etc to be Scripture?

thank you
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They can be used, are used, have been used for centuries, to explain the truth of scripture.

Jon
 
commenter said:
It is made available to us as Scripture when it is spoken orally or penned, and canonized. That is why we now have many gospels, but only 4 Gospels.
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I must admit I am not familiar with that view:
A quick word search in the NT shows about 50 times the the word “Scripture” is used.
While I did not check every one; but the dozen I did check all use the Greek word *graphḗ * (or a variant) meaning a “writing”…

Is it your view that an oral presentation can be considered scripture?

for ex:Peter’s speech at Pentecost; would you consider the speech itself to be Scripture prior to Luke 's writing (graphḗ)?

Thank you
 
JonNC said:
They can be used, are used, have been used for centuries, to explain the truth of scripture.

Jon
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Agreed; icons, stained glass, etc. have been used to explain the truth of scripture.
But they themselves are not Scripture:
 
alwayswill said:
Agreed; icons, stained glass, etc. have been used to explain the truth of scripture.
But they themselves are not Scripture:
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Agreed. I think iconoclasm to be a huge mistake, be it in the early Church, or when claimed by some Reformed communions since the Reformation.

Jon
 
alwayswill said:
perhaps I need to expound on the question I asked: which was "would you agree that Scripture is Scripture the moment it is penned? "

What I meant was; at the very moment Moses wrote Genesis, or Isaiah wrote his book, or Paul wrote Romans; were those writings actually Scripture or not?

I also believe John 1: 1 : The word (logos) has always existed: but I am asking about writings breathed out by God (graphe theopneustos)

Even though you did not answer my question: I will gladly answer yours about 2 Peter 3:16
2 quick points:
  1. some people ( ignorant and unstable) distort Paul’s writings
  2. the sentence construction shows that Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture
I am hoping that you will consider answering my question.
Thank you
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I asked you before about 2 Peter and you didn’t answer.

You left out one key word from 2 Peter 3:16

Destruction.

Seems to not mesh very well with this ideology of private interpretation. So I understand why you left that out.

To your question, I think you are asking at what exact point is scripture officially scripture.

Similar to asking when, exactly does the Host become the body of the Lord in the Eucharist.

I would defer to Church teaching on such matters. If I see something in the catechism that addresses it, I will post it here.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
I asked you before about 2 Peter and you didn’t answer.

You left out one key word from 2 Peter 3:16

Destruction.

Seems to not mesh very well with this ideology of private interpretation. So I understand why you left that out.

To your question, I think you are asking at what exact point is scripture officially scripture.

Similar to asking when, exactly does the Host become the body of the Lord in the Eucharist.

I would defer to Church teaching on such matters. If I see something in the catechism that addresses it, I will post it here.
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I don’t have an issue with that :
It is obvious that ignorant and unstable people have and will continue to distort Scripture to their destruction…

allow me to expound on my question again:

I am not asking “what **exact **point is scripture officially scripture.”

I am asking if the writings of Genesis, Isaiah, or Romans (for example) were actually Scripture when they were written or at some other later point…

I hope that clears up my question…
Thank you
 
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