Protestant Christians: Any problem with sola scriptura?

[steido01]

Jon still believe in SS, yes?

He’ll have to answer for himself, but knowing him as well as I do online, I’d say he certainly hasn’t abandoned Sola Scriptura.

'Round these parts we make a distinction between the classical “Protestant” practice of Sola Scriptura and the modern “Protestant” quasi-dogmatic misapplication, solo Scriptura.

 

[steido01]

And BTW you cant live in my home state and be a Packer fan

Would that I could return to my great green [and gold] river lands to the north…

 

[QuestLove]

Greetings QL!!

That’s the belief. But what about when people come up with different theories on what those scriptures mean? There’s no way to settle the standoff because you both appeal to the same source and there is no hierarchy.

Take one sentence and it can mean several things.

I NEVER SAID YOU STOLE MONEY.

If you ask most people if they know the meaning of that they would say absolutely.

Here’s what that one sentence could mean:

1.) I never said you stole money. The implication is that someone else said it.

or

2.) I never SAID you stole money. I thought you did, but I never actually said it.

or

3.) I never said you STOLE money. I thought maybe you lost it or destroyed, but you didn’t steal it.

or

4.) I never said you stole MONEY.* I thought you stole many other things, but not money.*

That’s just one six word sentence that can have several meanings. And with the bible we are talking about a gigantic book that is a collection of different books from thousands of years ago, originally written in other languages, from different cultures with idioms that usually wont apply to today.

It’s like if you wrote a book today, then shot it to the moon and it was discovered thousands of years from now, the finder might not grasp the total meaning of everything that you as the author was trying to convey.

So then the issue is not whether the bible/scriptures should be the ultimate authority but rather the interpretation of it. Because even with the varied interpretations it comes down to who thinks they have the correct interpretation of the scripture.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

But I didn’t say everything is in the Bible. For example, I believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity, even though it is not explicit in scripture. Its adiaphoron.
All SS maintains is that doctrine, which is determined by the Church, is accountable to scripture.

Jon

Thanks for defending the blessed Mother’s status as ever virgin.You probably catch a lot of heat from that from fellow protestants.

So is there anything that you see in the bible that would indicate a much later change in how the church itself would be structured and operated?

 

[Cyril_Of_Canada]

Thoughts (speaking as a life long Lutheran)
1- it isn’t a doctrine. It is a practice
2- we don’t live in the apostolic era, when the apostles were present. What we have, for sure is what is written down. It simply makes sense for the Church to hold Tradition and doctrine accountable to scripture
3- no communion using SS should deny the role of the Church in scripture

Jon

Is Sol Scriptura not an instruction?
As I understand it, Sol Scriptura is the instruction to
practice “Scripture Alone.”

 

[steido01]

Thanks for defending the blessed Mother’s status as ever virgin.You probably catch a lot of heat from that from fellow protestants.

Why would he? You seem to be making a rather large presumption about “Protestants,” whoever they are.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

So then the issue is not whether the bible/scriptures should be the ultimate authority but rather the interpretation of it. Because even with the varied interpretations it comes down to who thinks they have the correct interpretation of the scripture.

Greetings, Questlove!!

I think the scriptures are, without a doubt, 100% objective truth. That’s the Catholic position. Even if a person has a faulty interpretation of them, they don’t cease to be the truth because of their error. Just take a look at some wild sect like Westboro Baptist. Obviously they are reading the same bible as the rest of yes yet interpreting it differently.

I think you would agree, just for hypothetical argument, IF the Catholic church is correct about the Eucharist(just as a example) then that is a pretty big deal and something any Christian would love to be partaking in.(and should be in that case)

I don’t know your personal beliefs but I know Satan was twisting scripture with Jesus.And I also know that Peter said that people were not correctly interpreting Paul’s letters because they were “hard to understand”. Even misinterpreting it to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 So I do think proper interpretation is very important.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Why would he? You seem to be making a rather large presumption about “Protestants,” whoever they are.

Depends on what brand of protestant he converses with. Some are very zealous and anti-Catholic, and any mention of Mary remaining ever virgin would not be received kindly.

I have protestants(Baptist and others) in my family and frequented their churches for years as a protestant so I think I’m a informed person on the subject.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Would that I could return to my great green [and gold] river lands to the north…

We used to drive across the Wisconsin border during the week of Independence day. Great fireworks and cheese up there.

 

[steido01]

Depends on what brand of protestant he converses with. Some are very zealous and anti-Catholic, and any mention of Mary remaining ever virgin would not be received kindly.

I have protestants(Baptist and others) in my family and frequented their churches for years as a protestant so I think I’m a informed person on the subject.

Why would the sort of “Protestants” Jon or I associate with need to be placed into the same box as your Baptist relatives?

We used to drive across the Wisconsin border during the week of Independence day. Great fireworks and cheese up there.

Yep. I still drive across the border each weekend to make friends with a Spotted Cow. There’s a place I like. It’s next to where the real “Indiana Jones” taught. There’s another place I go when I’m hungry. They’ve got cheese curds and butter burgers. But you have to go further north if you want the best cheese curds. Never been much for the fireworks though; I’ll have to take your word on them. I’ve got a feeling we might frequent the same little corner of the state.

 

[PJM]

I think it’s based off of injustice, to the degree of injustice only God knows. We all know the story about Tetzel and the selling of indulgences that Luther was appalled by. And TBH i was too, as a protestant when I read the history.

Yes, the idea of sola scriptura was totally foreign to the early church as you pointed out we didn’t even have a complete canon until the end of the 4th century. That’s why it’s the church that is described as the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15. We have had the church without a bible, but never had a bible without a church.

It’s a big problem that I encountered as a protestant. I understand why Luther broke and started sola scriptura. He was just trying to play it safe and TBH, if not him, somebody was eventually going to break off be a “Luther” at some point.

And realistically it’s not all negative as many protestant churches are good and fruitful and I believe Jesus is with them to the best of their understanding. But like you say, we have to question does objective truth and morality really matter? Why is it that birth control was totally unacceptable just 70-80 years ago but now accepted pretty much everywhere accept the Catholic church? Same with female pastors and homosexuality.We aren’t supposed to be conforming to the world, yet I look around and that’s all i see happening right now. If there is no visible and authority church to settle things, then there is no foreseeable end to this route it’s taken. And I feel as though private interpretation is a big problem with all of this as people can use the bible to justify just about anything in their own minds. Here in America it was used to justify slavery years ago.

Nicely done, thanks

God Bless

Patrick

 

[Peter_J]

Why would the sort of “Protestants” Jon or I associate with need to be placed into the same box as your Baptist relatives?

 

[PJM]

So then the issue is not whether the bible/scriptures should be the ultimate authority but rather the interpretation of it. Because even with the varied interpretations it comes down to who thinks they have the correct interpretation of the scripture.

No surprise here

God IS Brilliant!

Which is why He attempted to make it “easy” {a subjective term here} for humanity to His Right from His Wrong.

Truth has to be singular; so seek Truth and discover what Jesus Himself desired and actually wanted too and DID institute:thumbsup:

Mt 28:19-20
Spoken directly to & exclusively too Peter, the Apostles and their successors:

“{YOU!} [19] Go therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world”

God Bless you,

Patrick.

 

[spedteacherita]

No surprise here

God IS Brilliant!

Which is why He attempted to make it “easy” {a subjective term here} for humanity to His Right from His Wrong.

Truth has to be singular; so seek Truth and discover what Jesus Himself desired and actually wanted too and DID institute:thumbsup:

***Mt 28:19-20
Spoken directly to & exclusively too Peter, the Apostles and their successors:

---

“{YOU!} [19] Go therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world”

God Bless you,

Patrick.

So what happened to the successors of the other Apostles? There should be apostolic succession from them as well. Just curious.

Blessings,

Rita

 

[steido01]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6a/47/33/6a4733ff958533ccdeed540dadf54f96.jpg

Ok, ok. I’ll lay off. I’ve always preferred handshakes and bridges to walls, anyway. Especially in graveyards.

 

[TxGodfollower]

I totally understand not wanting to trust men. I have trust issues with people too.

People differ on beliefs from the church and say she isn’t correct, but two big ones we both agree she got right. The New Testament in 382 AD and the Holy Trinity at Nicea.

So for non-Catholics I suppose the question is, when did the church go wrong and stop being guided by the holy Spirit?

Thank you.

Trinity is in the Bible. 1 John 5:7, Great Commission among others.

Greetings, Questlove!!

I think the scriptures are, without a doubt, 100% objective truth. That’s the Catholic position. Even if a person has a faulty interpretation of them, they don’t cease to be the truth because of their error. Just take a look at some wild sect like Westboro Baptist. Obviously they are reading the same bible as the rest of yes yet interpreting it differently.

I think you would agree, just for hypothetical argument, IF the Catholic church is correct about the Eucharist(just as a example) then that is a pretty big deal and something any Christian would love to be partaking in.(and should be in that case)

I don’t know your personal beliefs but I know Satan was twisting scripture with Jesus.And I also know that Peter said that people were not correctly interpreting Paul’s letters because they were “hard to understand”. Even misinterpreting it to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 So I do think proper interpretation is very important.

Peter warns that ignorant people misunderstand Paul’s letters, but he doesnt point to the Church to define it, he tells people to study.

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J;13685611:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6a/47/33/6a4733ff958533ccdeed540dadf54f96.jpg

Ok, ok. I’ll lay off. I’ve always preferred handshakes and bridges to walls, anyway. Especially in graveyards.

No, don’t go silent. Many of us like when you post.

Just respect our boxes and walls. :emoticon:

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Trinity is in the Bible. 1 John 5:7, Great Commission among others.

Peter warns that ignorant people misunderstand Paul’s letters, but he doesnt point to the Church to define it, he tells people to study.

Acts 8:30-31New International Version (NIV)

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Notice how Phillip does not tell him to interpret it on his own and go start his own church? :tsktsk:

And Paul says the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. What do pillars and foundations do anyway? They hold things up.

1 Timothy 3:15

1 Timothy 3:15New International Version (NIV)

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Doesn’t say the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth because A.) There was no bible yet and B.) you need the correct interpretation of it as Peter pointed out and Phillip as well.

 

[spedteacherita]

Doesn’t say the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth because A.) There was no bible yet and B.) you need the correct interpretation of it as Peter pointed out and Phillip as well.

Justin Martyr described a Christian service and stated that letters of the apostles were used to teach the people gathered there. While the canon of Scriptures wasn’t officially compiled yet copies were being circulated.

Here’s a link to Justin’s description of a Christian service:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

Blessings!

Rita

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Justin Martyr described a Christian service and stated that letters of the apostles were used to teach the people gathered there. While the canon of Scriptures wasn’t officially compiled yet copies were being circulated.

Here’s a link to Justin’s description of a Christian service:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

Blessings!

Rita

Greetings.

There were letters circulating but there was no consensus on new Testament books until much later.

We know that just from looking at early documents such as the Muratorian fragment dated about 170AD. This is the earliest list we have of what was considered inspired:

christian-history.org/muratorian-canon.html

Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John
Acts
Letters of Paul to churches: Corinthias (2), Ephesians, Phlippians, Colossians, Galatians, Thessalonians (2), Romans
Letters of Paul to individuals: Philemon, Titus, Timothy (2)
Jude, John (2)
Wisdom of Solomon(!)
Revelation of John
Revelation of Peter(!), questionable
Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas, good but not be read in church

This leaves out Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John. That’s not unusual in the west in the 2nd century. In fact, what might be most unusual is his inclusion of 2 John! (Of course, we don’t know it’s 3 John he’s leaving out. He doesn’t say which two letters of John were being read.)

You can see that does not align with what we have today.

Depending on where you were you might have even considered Clement’s first epistle to be inspired.

This is why tradition, of which the scriptures came from, is so important, imo.

It’s how the church, guided by the holy Spirit and the vicar of Christ in 382 AD (pope Damasas) was able to umpire all this and give us the correct NT.

Blessings.