Protestant Christology

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Hello,

Protestants always assert that they are 100% about Jesus with nothing else (except the Bible, of course) and that they only need Jesus and absolutely nothing else. So, my question is how well do Protestants know Christ - do Protestants have a deep understanding of Christology? Do you contemplate the Incarnation, or the Hypostatic Union? Do you understand about the two natures and the two wills of Christ?

Christ asked “and who do you say that I am?”

If you are a Christian and not Catholic or Orthodox, how do you answer the above question?
 
I think that the Baptist wrote the book on Christology:thumbsup:
 
Protestants always assert that they are 100% about Jesus with nothing else (except the Bible, of course) and that they only need Jesus and absolutely nothing else.
We always assert that?
Christ asked “and who do you say that I am?”
If you are a Christian and not Catholic or Orthodox, how do you answer the above question?
Ordinarily we’d just repeat Peter’s answer.

But regarding the other questions about the two natures, etc., of course not. Neither Protestants nor Catholics are aware of those theological minutiae. On this Board you have some of the brightest and most studious Catholics, and not ten percent of them could outline the monothelite controversy without googling it first.

But Protestantism, generally speaking, has produced giants in the fields of systematic and historical theology, and their works stand as monuments in libraries across the world. So, yeah, we know about those things.

Most of us cannot define “person” as an incommunicable substance of a rational nature, but we know Jesus just the same because we’ve met him and live with him.
 
Well, I can only speak for myself of course. I have had the HS in me for about 11 years now. I have only been studying the bible for about 4 years. I know as much as I possibly can in 4 short years(which is not much mind you:o )
It will take my whole lifetime of studying the bible to learn about Christ. There is just too much to understand. Some things IMHO us humans will never fully get on this side of heaven.

What is that phrase–The more I study the bible the more I realize I dont know:o

The only way to learn about the things you have mentioned is to study the bible.👍 After all it is God’s love letter to us:D 😃
 
Since you asked, a brief, very brief, outline of my Christology (not systemitized, I don’t have time to do that for you right now).
  1. Eternal life is dependent on one having a correct relationship with Christ.
  2. Christ is…
    …the Logos
    …the Messiah
    …the Son of Man
    …the Son of God
    …God incarnate
    …the Last Adam
  3. As the God the Son, Jesus had a divinely appointed mission to fulfill – to mediate life to men.
  4. Jesus is fully conscious of his position as both God and man and of his mission.
  5. Though Jesus’ life has a beginning at his conception, God the Son is eternal. Indeed there is not an eternal Father without an Eternal Son, and together the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from them.
  6. Though Jesus is truly and 100% divine, without any loss of that nature, in his humanity he is utterly dependent on the Father (as are we all).
  7. Jesus’ life on earth is the beginning of the eschaton, even though its ultimate fulfillment is not yet. Thus those who are in Christ may enter into the Kingdom of God even now, its final formulation is yet to be but can be awaited in confidence because it is guaranteed in Christ’s resurrection and is one part of the hope to which we cling.
  8. In this life (and the life to come), Jesus is Lord. His exaultation in glory makes it so. This is even more important for day-to-day living than proclaiming Christ as Savior/Redeemer. Thus it is that salvation comes not by confessing the Lord Jesus, but by confessing Jesus as Lord.
  9. Jesus is the Savior of the world and of individuals. By virtue of his redemption of that which was lost, we now belong to God and no longer to ourselves (or the devil). Thus he reconciles us to God and makes new creatures of us.
  10. Jesus is our priest. He intecedes for us on our behalf with the Father so as to without condemnation and grants us absolution. He provides access for us to the God the Father through his own person as God the Son.
 
Since you asked, a brief, very brief, outline of my Christology (not systemitized, I don’t have time to do that for you right now).
  1. Eternal life is dependent on one having a correct relationship with Christ.
  2. Christ is…
    …the Logos
    …the Messiah
    …the Son of Man
    …the Son of God
    …God incarnate
    …the Last Adam
  3. As the God the Son, Jesus had a divinely appointed mission to fulfill – to mediate life to men.
  4. Jesus is fully conscious of his position as both God and man and of his mission.
  5. Though Jesus’ life has a beginning at his conception, God the Son is eternal. Indeed there is not an eternal Father without an Eternal Son, and together the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from them.
  6. Though Jesus is truly and 100% divine, without any loss of that nature, in his humanity he is utterly dependent on the Father (as are we all).
  7. Jesus’ life on earth is the beginning of the eschaton, even though its ultimate fulfillment is not yet. Thus those who are in Christ may enter into the Kingdom of God even now, its final formulation is yet to be but can be awaited in confidence because it is guaranteed in Christ’s resurrection and is one part of the hope to which we cling.
  8. In this life (and the life to come), Jesus is Lord. His exaultation in glory makes it so. This is even more important for day-to-day living than proclaiming Christ as Savior/Redeemer. Thus it is that salvation comes not by confessing the Lord Jesus, but by confessing Jesus as Lord.
  9. Jesus is the Savior of the world and of individuals. By virtue of his redemption of that which was lost, we now belong to God and no longer to ourselves (or the devil). Thus he reconciles us to God and makes new creatures of us.
  10. Jesus is our priest. He intecedes for us on our behalf with the Father so as to without condemnation and grants us absolution. He provides access for us to the God the Father through his own person as God the Son.
What Grace said:thumbsup: AMEN!!!:extrahappy:
 
Again we see the tendency here to lump all “Protestants” together in one group.

Protestantism is not monolithic.

The kind of Protestant you’re talking about is, globally speaking, very rare. They get a lot of press in the US because they’re exotic these “post-credal evangelicals” but even within the context of American Protestantism they are rare.

Baptist ministers are, by and large, educated in Christian history and have a satisfactory understanding of and acceptance of the christology of Chalcedon and Nicaea.

Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist ministers go to seminary every bit as long as an parish priest and at seminary they receive a superb grounding in historic orthodox christology.

As for what individual Protestants believe, well, I am not really sure what this will prove. For every Protestant with a deficient Christology I could show you a Catholic who, effectively, believes or at least behaves as though she believes that Mary has divine authority and power and that this is necessary because Jesus is an angry judge and another, gentler intercessor is needed.

The point is that the average Protestant is just as christologically orthodox as the average Catholic and that their ministers are every bit as well educated as a priest.

And the point behind this is that Christology is not a matter of debate between Protestantism qua Protestantism (i.e. in it’s propositional, doctrinal form) and Catholicism as a similarly constructed theological entity.

The Reformers took great pains to explain that they believed exactly what the church has always believed about Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity.

And until you can give an example of an orthodox Protestant church having a deficient expression of historic christology, you’re just indulging in tribalistic chest-thumping.
 
Hello,

Protestants always assert that they are 100% about Jesus with nothing else (except the Bible, of course) and that they only need Jesus and absolutely nothing else. So, my question is how well do Protestants know Christ - do Protestants have a deep understanding of Christology? Do you contemplate the Incarnation, or the Hypostatic Union? Do you understand about the two natures and the two wills of Christ?
Yes
Christ asked “and who do you say that I am?”
If you are a Christian and not Catholic or Orthodox, how do you answer the above question?
You are the Christ, the Savior of the world, the Pantocrator, of one with the Father.

What other answer is there?
 
Hello,
It will take my whole lifetime of studying the bible to learn about Christ. There is just too much to understand. Some things IMHO us humans will never fully get on this side of heaven.
Of course a lifetime is too short! 😉

Saint Thomas Aquinas, arguably the most learned man in the history of the Church, on his deathbed said that all he knew was but a drop of water in the ocean that is the knowledge of God.

The Psalmist says “To me, how mysterious Your thoughts, the sum of them not to be numbered! If I count them, they are more than the sand; to finish, I must be eternal, like You.” (Psalm 139: 17-18)

But, of course, for Catholics, we have not only our own lifetime to learn. We have the collective knowledge of 2000 years of deep spiritual pursuit of the knowledge of God. 2000 years of men, much more learned and intelligent than we who have pondered these questions and built a strong foundation.

As Sir Isaac Newton said: “If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.”
 
Hello,
Baptist ministers are, by and large, educated in Christian history and have a satisfactory understanding of and acceptance of the christology of Chalcedon and Nicaea.

Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist ministers go to seminary every bit as long as an parish priest and at seminary they receive a superb grounding in historic orthodox christology.
Every Protestant I have spoken with about the way Protestant ministers are trained seems to describe a very similar practice. The names vary, but I think that the most accurate title would be Bible College. They primarily study the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments and learn to interpret them via their denominational and professorial viewpoints. The is the vast majority of what is taught. Then you get a little bit of other information, depending on what school and professor you learn from. This may include proving Catholicism and particularly the Pope is the Anti-Christ, or it may be to study what the reformers taught and wrote, or it may be some philosophy, etc., etc.

Again, this is what I have been told by Protestants, some of whom have attended such schools. Not one has said that they were taught the Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, ancient heresies and why they were wrong, etc. Some didn’t even know what an Early Church Father was or who they were - and these were the men and women who came out of a Protestant education.
As for what individual Protestants believe, well, I am not really sure what this will prove. For every Protestant with a deficient Christology I could show you a Catholic who, effectively, believes or at least behaves as though she believes that Mary has divine authority and power and that this is necessary because Jesus is an angry judge and another, gentler intercessor is needed.
There is a fundamental difference. The Catholic Church teaches what it teaches, and those who err from that are separating themselves from the Church. In Protestantism, with its general doctrines of Sola Scriptura and private interpretation, every person, in effect, becomes their own denomination.
And the point behind this is that Christology is not a matter of debate between Protestantism qua Protestantism (i.e. in it’s propositional, doctrinal form) and Catholicism as a similarly constructed theological entity.
What exactly are you saying? Please clarify.
And until you can give an example of an orthodox Protestant church having a deficient expression of historic christology, you’re just indulging in tribalistic chest-thumping.
What do you mean by “orthodox” Protestant? Does this even have meaning? Even mainstream Protestant denominations are currently subscribing to what may be described as liberal and historically un-Christian ideals and positions.
 
Again, this is what I have been told by Protestants, some of whom have attended such schools. Not one has said that they were taught the Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, ancient heresies and why they were wrong, etc. Some didn’t even know what an Early Church Father was or who they were - and these were the men and women who came out of a Protestant education.
Church history and Patristics were required classes in seminary. You haven’t talked to that many Protestants, evidently.
 
Hello,

Every Protestant I have spoken with about the way Protestant ministers are trained seems to describe a very similar practice. The names vary, but I think that the most accurate title would be Bible College. They primarily study the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments and learn to interpret them via their denominational and professorial viewpoints. The is the vast majority of what is taught. Then you get a little bit of other information, depending on what school and professor you learn from. This may include proving Catholicism and particularly the Pope is the Anti-Christ, or it may be to study what the reformers taught and wrote, or it may be some philosophy, etc., etc.

Again, this is what I have been told by Protestants, some of whom have attended such schools. Not one has said that they were taught the Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, ancient heresies and why they were wrong, etc. Some didn’t even know what an Early Church Father was or who they were - and these were the men and women who came out of a Protestant education.
I invite you to read my seminary catalog, including course descriptions: Asbury Theological Seminary catalog. I think you will find all of the things you mentioned covered, though not always using the same name that you might use to title a course.
 
We always assert that?
That’s the whole reason for Luther with sola scriptura
Ordinarily we’d just repeat Peter’s answer.
But what exactly does that mean? That’s the whole realm of Christology takes up
But regarding the other questions about the two natures, etc., of course not. Neither Protestants nor Catholics are aware of those theological minutiae. On this Board you have some of the brightest and most studious Catholics, and not ten percent of them could outline the monothelite controversy without googling it first.
It doesn’t matter if members of the church don’t know the whole realm of the church for it to be there. I’ve never been to Perth, but I know that Western Australia is no less part of Australia without me being aware of the experience of it.
But Protestantism, generally speaking, has produced giants in the fields of systematic and historical theology, and their works stand as monuments in libraries across the world.
But what do they base their Christology on? That’s the point of the OP! 😊
Most of us cannot define “person” as an incommunicable substance of a rational nature, but we know Jesus just the same because we’ve met him and live with him.
What’s his address?
 
Hello,

Every Protestant I have spoken with about the way Protestant ministers are trained seems to describe a very similar practice. The names vary, but I think that the most accurate title would be Bible College. They primarily study the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments and learn to interpret them via their denominational and professorial viewpoints. The is the vast majority of what is taught. Then you get a little bit of other information, depending on what school and professor you learn from. This may include proving Catholicism and particularly the Pope is the Anti-Christ, or it may be to study what the reformers taught and wrote, or it may be some philosophy, etc., etc.
Then you are mistaken. Or your contact with Protestants is too limited for you to be making pseudo-apodictic pronouncements about all of them based upon your own narrow experience.

Most Protestant Seminaries also teach Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and a full course in Church History as well as Confessional Dogmatics.
Again, this is what I have been told by Protestants, some of whom have attended such schools. Not one has said that they were taught the Early Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, ancient heresies and why they were wrong, etc. Some didn’t even know what an Early Church Father was or who they were - and these were the men and women who came out of a Protestant education.
Then again, you’re dealing with the wrong Protestants and certainly not ones that are emblematic of the whole.

But we were talking about Christology.
There is a fundamental difference. The Catholic Church teaches what it teaches, and those who err from that are separating themselves from the Church. In Protestantism, with its general doctrines of Sola Scriptura and private interpretation, every person, in effect, becomes their own denomination.
And confessional Protestants deal in exactly the same manner with pastors and teachers who depart from confessional norm. They excommunicate them.

The rest of this commentary sinks under its own ponderous weight of jingoism.

There is nothing in Sola Scriptura requiring on the one hand the bogeyman of “Private Interpretation” or, on the other, a necessary departure from historical moorings.

You really should leave behind your comic books and step into the gallery of real history and theology.
What exactly are you saying? Please clarify.
What I am saying is that for all the theological problems and debates that exist between Protestantism and Catholicism, the nature of Christ as true God and true man is not really one of them, nor has it ever really been one and your effort to make it one is ridiculous.
What do you mean by “orthodox” Protestant? Does this even have meaning? Even mainstream Protestant denominations are currently subscribing to what may be described as liberal and historically un-Christian ideals and positions.
Generally I mean a confessional Protestant, which is to say a Protestant who subscribes to a detailed external statement of doctrine such as a Lutheran or a Presbyterian or in the majority of cases a Baptist. This is the vast, vast majority of Protestants.

Here is the Christological confession of every Protestant:

Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man, the natures are distinct without ever being separable. He is the second Person of the Trinity which they also confess.

I challenge you to find an official Protestant document or confession that denies this.

Presbyterians and Lutherans even affirm the doctrine of the Theotokos because they are so consistent in their Christology that they understand that the natures are, in the incarnation so inseparable that to say that Mary was the mother only of the man but not of God would be nonsensical.

That some Protestants haven’t fully worked this out only means that they are inconsistent, not that they are deficient because they remain better than their inconsistency and confess with us the doctrine of Nicaea and Chalcedon though they may not feel particularly compelled to use exactly the same language we do to express it.

The attempt to reduce a whole group to the terms of its lowest denominator is an effort to demonize and really is an expression of a lack of charity since it reveals an effort to objectify what is really a living individual. You shouldn’t do it.
 
Then you are mistaken. Or your contact with Protestants is too limited for you to be making pseudo-apodictic pronouncements about all of them based upon your own narrow experience.

Most Protestant Seminaries also teach Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and a full course in Church History as well as Confessional Dogmatics.
So if they learn the original Greek, they’re still concentrating on the Bible
Then again, you’re dealing with the wrong Protestants and certainly not ones that are emblematic of the whole.
And therein lies a problem for a creed that’s supposed to be sola scriptura - cherry-picking the Church Fathers
 
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