protestant churches and creeds

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Are protestant churches hetrodox for not using and acknowleding the creedal statments? Why do they not use the creeds.
The topic of creeds and confessions is a very interesting and informative one.

The very earliest Christians of course did not have creeds. They simply believed what they had been taught by the apostles, and that was that, without thinking about it.

But as time went on, heretical and heterodox groups came along and challenged these beliefs. So, to distinguish themselves from the heretics, who taught something different, creeds were developed. In other words, we have creeds in response to heretical teachings. Creeds weren’t necessary in the earliest days but are needed now, in view of the variety of competing viewpoints for the truth. “We believe such and such, as contrasted to those nasty others, who don’t believe such and such.”

Catholics and mainline Protestants use creeds, even sharing some of them, as has been pointed out. However, congregational type churches, such as Baptist, Church of Christ, etc, attempt to shy clear of them.

But I think that attempt is artifical, and disingenuous. These groups do have their beliefs and teachings, and could easily be formalized into a creedal statement, which is a concise, formal way of expressing a set of teachings. They simply don’t do it, just so they can say they don’t have creeds!

Jehovah’s Witnesses also brag they don’t have a creed, but then in the Watchtower magazine they published what was exactly a creed, it’s just that they didn’t call it that.

The Restoration Movement has been mentioned in this thread. A Church of Christ evangelist explained the origins of his church to me this way. He spoke of a “Great Awakening” in the early 1800’s, where the founders of his movement looked about them and saw the bewildering array of different denominations and churches and they felt that this cannot be right. They asked themselves, why are there so many denominations? The answer was because of the many different man-made creeds and confessions.

They decided then to forget all those creeds, all those confessions of men. To forget what Luther wrote, what Calvin wrote, what Wesley wrote, what Athanasius wrote, simply to go “back to the Bible” with fresh and clear minds.

And so they did, as well as they were able.

Now, what is of interest to the Catholic, is that by going back to the Bible with minds clear, they arrived at understandings of soteriology, of salvation, of the meaning of baptism, etc, that are very similar to those of the Catholic church. Certainly quite different than Luther’s and Calvin’s.

Well, what are we to make of this? For one thing, it shows how strongly we are influenced in our reading of scripture by tradition, that is, by what we have been previously taught, whether we admit it or not.
 
mackbrislawn;:
The Restoration Movement has been mentioned in this thread.

Now, what is of interest to the Catholic, is that by going back to the Bible with minds clear, they arrived at understandings of soteriology, of salvation, of the meaning of baptism, etc, that are very similar to those of the Catholic church.
One of the magazines published by a congregation that identifies itself as Church of Christ (One Cup) had an article that concluded that all of the differences between Roman Catholic Theology, and their theology, are the result of “the unscriptural authority of the Magisterium”. Eliminate that, and there are no differences. (The part in quotes is their wording.)

xan

jonathon
 
One of the magazines published by a congregation that identifies itself as Church of Christ (One Cup) had an article that concluded that all of the differences between Roman Catholic Theology, and their theology, are the result of “the unscriptural authority of the Magisterium”. Eliminate that, and there are no differences. (The part in quotes is their wording.)

xan

jonathon
It’s funny, all right, that the Magisterium has no authority, but the individual scripture reader, does!

Luther: “A ploughboy with a bible in his hand is equal to the pope in Rome.”

In has been mentioned that creeds and confessions are man-made. Now, presumably, the confessions are based upon the bible, derived from it. That is, the confessions are lists of the beliefs and doctrines based upon scripture. But, if these confessions and beliefs are man-made, our understanding of scripture is man-made! And, if man-made, therefore fallible. If fallible, we cannot know the truth for sure, and we must necessarily be always in doubt.

In spite of the fact that Jesus said, “You will know the truth…”

Kind of a paradox.
 
I thought that most Baptists would claim to agree with the Apostles’ Creed for sure and probably the Nicene Creed as well. But I may be wrong. Baptists are a varied bunch.

Edwin
Having many years of experience with several varieties of Baptists:

Generally speaking, Baptists would trip over a few phrases in both creeds. In the Apostle’s Creed, the statements “He descended into hell” “The holy catholic church” and “the communion of saints” would give your typical Baptist pause. Unless they know what you mean by “hell” in the first phrase, they might be offended that we profess that Christ went there. A good Baptist is loathe to acknowledge any “catholic” church, even with the little footnote I’ve seen in the Methodist prayer book (*Catholic here means universal.) They might be able to say “communion of saints” but they wouldn’t necessarily mean that we can commune with the saints in Heaven.

In the Nicene Creed, “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” and the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” lines are like fingernails on a chalkboard to their ears, since they deny baptismal regeneration and again, that “C” word. 😉
 
Having many years of experience with several varieties of Baptists:

Generally speaking, Baptists would trip over a few phrases in both creeds. In the Apostle’s Creed, the statements “He descended into hell” “The holy catholic church” and “the communion of saints” would give your typical Baptist pause. Unless they know what you mean by “hell” in the first phrase, they might be offended that we profess that Christ went there. A good Baptist is loathe to acknowledge any “catholic” church, even with the little footnote I’ve seen in the Methodist prayer book (*Catholic here means universal.) They might be able to say “communion of saints” but they wouldn’t necessarily mean that we can commune with the saints in Heaven.

In the Nicene Creed, “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” and the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” lines are like fingernails on a chalkboard to their ears, since they deny baptismal regeneration and again, that “C” word. 😉
You may be right about Baptists of the more fundamentalist sort. Admittedly my associations with Baptists as an adult have been largely with more moderate, even (by Baptist standards) “high church” Baptists. I’d include the Reformed Baptists in this, not that they are either moderate or high church, but they are closer to confessional Protestantism and thus less anti-creedal. As a kid I lived in the midst of very fundamentalist Baptists, but I didn’t think about Creeds that much myself back then. I suspect that the Baptist pastor who baptized me (though I never joined his church) would have been pro-creedal, though. And the evangelical churches in Romania (Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Pentecostal) profess official adherence to the Nicene Creed (admittedly they think of this primarily as a way of showing the Orthodox that they are not such horrid heretics after all, but they sincerely believe that they can affirm the contents of the Creeds; and admittedly I know this for certain only of the Plymouth Brethren, having heard this from the then president of the PB’s “union,” but I understood him to be speaking of all three denominations, and the PB’s are even less creedal than the Baptists by and large).

Edwin
 
Yes, but lets take the Baptist church for example. They will never recite the Creeds. The three accepted major Apostels, nicean, and athanasians. Being of a former Baptist background I attempted to discuss the third article of the creed and it sends them over the edge. Since they do not in my opinion they seem to reject them does this make them hetrodox in basic faith teachings?
Why do Baptists not recite any of the creeds? What is the 3rd article? Why does it send them over the edge?
 
Why do Baptists not recite any of the creeds? What is the 3rd article? Why does it send them over the edge?
I used to attend a First Baptist Church with my grandmother. They never once mentioned creeds and when brought up were quickly dismimssed as man made and a basic duh.

The third article of the creed as I have learnd it is this.
I believe in the Holy Spirit the hly catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Now what I have found they don’t like and for give what some would call a Lutheran answer is this.
-That I by my own strenghth or reason can not come to Jesus Christ, my Lord,
-That that work is done by the Holy Spirit through hearing of the Gospel and lightening me with his gifts.
-They from my experience do not like the whole communion of saints line either.

This is the explanaion of the creed in the third article as I have been taught thus far, and from my experiences they just don’t like thoughs explanations.
 
Reformed,

I appreciate your efforts in answering him, but I would urge you not to let him move the goal posts. Having begun with a question accusing "Protestants’ (without differentiation) of ignoring the creeds, it should be sufficient to show that he is mistaken.

If he wants to start the seven millionth thread on differences in sacramentology it might be best to let him do so in a new thread so he doesn’t look so much like he’s angling for a fight.

Surely, in Christian charity we owe him that much.
 
Are protestant churches hetrodox for not using and acknowleding the creedal statments? Why do they not use the creeds.
Which churches are you talking about?
When/if (by the grace of God), I become a pastor, I will oblige myself to adhering to the teachings of not only the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions (Augustana, Luther’s Catechisms), but also Apostolicum, Nicaenum and Athanasium…

So I’m wondering which Protestant churches you’re talking about? 🙂
 
Which churches are you talking about?
When/if (by the grace of God), I become a pastor, I will oblige myself to adhering to the teachings of not only the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions (Augustana, Luther’s Catechisms), but also Apostolicum, Nicaenum and Athanasium…

So I’m wondering which Protestant churches you’re talking about? 🙂
Non-liturgical churches, basically. They’re the ones who get their undies in a bunch about “man-made” creeds and “ritualistic” worship. :cool:
 
Non-liturgical churches, basically. They’re the ones who get their undies in a bunch about “man-made” creeds and “ritualistic” worship. :cool:
They’re the same kind of churches that say that the only kind of worship that’s worth anything is one that is not “liturgical” or “ritualistic” - but rather one that has people jumping around, shouting, in tounges and otherwise…and suddenly, without noticing it, the beautiful irony of it all is that they establish some kind of liturgy of their own - but this one is entirely man-made, not one that has inspiration from the earliest years of the Church Catholic…

To be honest, I don’t take them very seriously when they criticize like this…
 
They’re the same kind of churches that say that the only kind of worship that’s worth anything is one that is not “liturgical” or “ritualistic” - but rather one that has people jumping around, shouting, in tounges and otherwise…and suddenly, without noticing it, the beautiful irony of it all is that they establish some kind of liturgy of their own - but this one is entirely man-made, not one that has inspiration from the earliest years of the Church Catholic…
I was going to say something like that, and mention that while they reject creeds, they almost all have a “Statement of Faith.” :rolleyes: When I was two-timing (heh, heh) before I crossed the Tiber, I was attending an early service at a Lutheran Church, then going to Baptist Sunday School and service, I lovingly pointed out in SS that while they didn’t utilize liturgy, the services were essentially the same every week. Welcome, one or two congregational songs, one or two solo singers, 45 minute sermon, complete with shoutin’ “Amen, brother!” a few dozen times (is that vain repetition? ;)), an invitation hymn so folks could come forward and ask Jesus to be their personal Saviour, then the offering. Every time the doors were opened. 🤷
 
Reformed,

I appreciate your efforts in answering him, but I would urge you not to let him move the goal posts. Having begun with a question accusing "Protestants’ (without differentiation) of ignoring the creeds, it should be sufficient to show that he is mistaken.

If he wants to start the seven millionth thread on differences in sacramentology it might be best to let him do so in a new thread so he doesn’t look so much like he’s angling for a fight.

Surely, in Christian charity we owe him that much.
To clairify as stated before I could reply as “Protestants”. I do not define Lutheranism as “Protestant”. What I should define as Protestant is None denominational, Baptist, Anti Baptist, Calvanist, ect… I hope this clairifies it.
I appoligize for moving to the “goal post” on Reformed. That was not very kind.
 
Are protestant churches hetrodox for not using and acknowleding the creedal statments? Why do they not use the creeds.
While the non-liturgical, low-church Protestant denominations will not use the historic ecumenical creeds, other Protestant Denominations will.

For instance, the United Methodist Church has and uses the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds. As an ordained Elder (Presbyter) in the UMC for 18 years, I can assert that we affirm our faith with these creeds every Sunday.
 
Nearly all paedo-baptistic Calvinists will use the creeds and not all Baptists eschew them either.

Really you are talking about a very small number of Christians who, in most cases, implicitly affirm the contents of the major symbols anyway.
 
Steadfast has hit upon something of value. THose groups that refuse to say the creed, do still accept most of the contents of them. The third portion of the Apostle’s is the most troubling, as is the same portion of the Nicean.

A good question would be how does denying portions of the Creed reflect on the orthodoxy of the denomination? Even those who do not say them would not argue against most of it as a summary.
 
Steadfast has hit upon something of value. THose groups that refuse to say the creed, do still accept most of the contents of them. The third portion of the Apostle’s is the most troubling, as is the same portion of the Nicean.

A good question would be how does denying portions of the Creed reflect on the orthodoxy of the denomination? Even those who do not say them would not argue against most of it as a summary.
That is very true … most denominations that refuse to adopt a creed for nominal use will still affirm the theological content of large portions of it. There are, however, parts that some churches have a problem affirming. Others will affirm portions with an interpretation what would probably vary, somewhat, from the nominal interpretation within the Roman Catholic Church.

For instance, United Methodists tend to understand the affirmation within the Nicene creed: “We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church” as pertaining to the true nature of the church, beyond denominational division, inclusive of all those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and affirm the doctrines of the faith as contained in the Creeds themselves. In other words, we understand it ecumenically (within the context of Christian ecumenism) and not as a sectarian statement. United Methodists don’t understand themselves to be the only Christians or the only manifestation of the “true church”; rather, they see themselves as being spiritually part of the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” of Jesus Christ that is not limited by time, space, or denominational name.

Then, there’s the matter of the Filioque controversy … which is an issue not for Roman Catholics vs. Protestants but Roman Catholics vs. the Eastern Orthodox. Since that’s a topic for another area and thread, I’ll not go there. 🙂
 
That is very true … most denominations that refuse to adopt a creed for nominal use will still affirm the theological content of large portions of it. There are, however, parts that some churches have a problem affirming. Others will affirm portions with an interpretation what would probably vary, somewhat, from the nominal interpretation within the Roman Catholic Church.

For instance, United Methodists tend to understand the affirmation within the Nicene creed: “We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church” as pertaining to the true nature of the church, beyond denominational division, inclusive of all those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and affirm the doctrines of the faith as contained in the Creeds themselves. In other words, we understand it ecumenically (within the context of Christian ecumenism) and not as a sectarian statement. United Methodists don’t understand themselves to be the only Christians or the only manifestation of the “true church”; rather, they see themselves as being spiritually part of the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” of Jesus Christ that is not limited by time, space, or denominational name.

Then, there’s the matter of the Filioque controversy … which is an issue not for Roman Catholics vs. Protestants but Roman Catholics vs. the Eastern Orthodox. Since that’s a topic for another area and thread, I’ll not go there. 🙂
No, let us not crank that tractor today.

This is what I mean. I would say that any group that would refuse to afirm the creeds, in some form, even if they do not use them, has issues. For example, the Mormons deny them.
 
No, let us not crank that tractor today.

This is what I mean. I would say that any group that would refuse to afirm the creeds, in some form, even if they do not use them, has issues. For example, the Mormons deny them.
I agree.
 
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