protestant churches and creeds

[Contarini]

Welcome to the forum, by the way. I hope you have a wonderful time.

I have relatives in your area, though they are all Catholic.

How involved are you at SMU?

So Mesquite is near Dallas?

Rev. Neal, do you know William Abraham? I’m a big fan of his work.

Edwin

 

[RevNeal]

Welcome to the forum, by the way. I hope you have a wonderful time.

I have relatives in your area, though they are all Catholic.

How involved are you at SMU?

Thank you for your welcome. I appreciate it. I joined a while back for another reason and, periodically, lurk here.

I took my undergraduate work at SMU way back in the 1980s. Since then I have taught Greek there as an adjunct instructor when they’ve had need of extra teachers, but I haven’t done that for a while now.

 

[RevNeal]

So Mesquite is near Dallas?

Rev. Neal, do you know William Abraham? I’m a big fan of his work.

Mesquite is a suburb on the east side of Dallas, straddling 635. Yes, I’ve met professor Abraham; can’t say I “know” him, but I also admire him and his work.

 

[With_Questions]

Are protestant churches hetrodox for not using and acknowleding the creedal statments? Why do they not use the creeds.

Well, I will raise my hands and 'fess up that none of the churches I have attended since the Methodist Church of my childhood have “Say a creed” as a part of their worship service.

That does not mean that we do not believe them; we just don’t use them in our ordinary worship.

All the churches that I have attended have a “Statement of Faith” which I suppose is similar to a creed. In fact, one church that I attended had the Apostles Creed as their statement of faith.

The Holy Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed is really not a problem because we understand that when this creed was written it really means Universal Church.

If any problem exists I guess it would be the line “one baptism for the remission of sins” since we believe you are born again when…well…you are born again; not at Baptism that might be months after. I guess to us that means that you practice baptism which we do.

 

[Contarini]

The Holy Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed is really not a problem because we understand that when this creed was written it really means Universal Church.

In the sense that early Christians were not as generous as modern Catholics with regard to believers in Christ outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.

But I challenge you to find one usage of the term “Catholic Church” before the Reformation (perhaps before 1600 or 1650, but before the Reformation will do) where it doesn’t refer to one particular Christian body over against other groups that may claim to be Christian.

Edwin

 

[RevNeal]

Well, I will raise my hands and 'fess up that none of the churches I have attended since the Methodist Church of my childhood have “Say a creed” as a part of their worship service.

That does not mean that we do not believe them; we just don’t use them in our ordinary worship.

All the churches that I have attended have a “Statement of Faith” which I suppose is similar to a creed. In fact, one church that I attended had the Apostles Creed as their statement of faith.

The Holy Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed is really not a problem because we understand that when this creed was written it really means Universal Church.

If any problem exists I guess it would be the line “one baptism for the remission of sins” since we believe you are born again when…well…you are born again; not at Baptism that might be months after. I guess to us that means that you practice baptism which we do.

There is a wide variety of practice within the UMC, including lots of churches that do “Contemporary” or otherwise non-liturgical services. However, the official Order of Worship as detailed in the Book of Worship and the Hymnal (Known as “Word and Table 1”) contains a placement for an Affirmation of Faith (with several to choose from in the back of the Hymnal). There are several other creeds in addition to the “big three” that can be chosen, including the Statement of Faith of the United Church of Canada and another of the Korean Methodist Church, however both of these are mostly linguistic updates and adjustments to the historic creeds. Additionally, there’s something called “The World Methodist Social Affirmation” which is less a statement of faith and more a statement of social action; and, there are several Statements of Faith that are drawn straight from Paul’s letters.

The churches I have served over the last 19 years of my ministry – from the smallest to my current congregation – have all included an Affirmation of Faith, using the historic creeds, in its worship services. I tend to rotate between the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, though I prefer the Nicene Creed as a matter of theological and spiritual temperament.

 

[With_Questions]

In the sense that early Christians were not as generous as modern Catholics with regard to believers in Christ outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.

But I challenge you to find one usage of the term “Catholic Church” before the Reformation (perhaps before 1600 or 1650, but before the Reformation will do) where it doesn’t refer to one particular Christian body over against other groups that may claim to be Christian.

Edwin

But that is not the point I am trying to make.

I guess the point is this:

It is presumptuous to assume that any author of any text containing the word “Catholic” that was written prior to the point in time in which the “Catholic” church they knew divided upon itself would use the same word “Catholic” (presumably meaning the Catholic denomination) today.

 

[With_Questions]

The churches I have served over the last 19 years of my ministry – from the smallest to my current congregation – have all included an Affirmation of Faith, using the historic creeds, in its worship services. I tend to rotate between the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, though I prefer the Nicene Creed as a matter of theological and spiritual temperament.

Hi Dr. Neal:
Just to clarify a point I should have made earlier.

None of the churches I have been recently involved in are critical of the creeds or of any church that uses them regularly in worship. In fact I remember on occasion reciting them because the Pastor wanted the Congregation to know what they were. My only point is that we don’t regularly recite them every Sunday.

 

[RevNeal]

Hi Dr. Neal:
Just to clarify a point I should have made earlier.

None of the churches I have been recently involved in are critical of the creeds or of any church that uses them regularly in worship. In fact I remember on occasion reciting them because the Pastor wanted the Congregation to know what they were. My only point is that we don’t regularly recite them every Sunday.

Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it. And that just goes to show the diversity, for I have never pastored a church that didn’t affirm their faith with those creeds nearly every Sunday.

 

[Contarini]

But that is not the point I am trying to make.

I guess the point is this:

It is presumptuous to assume that any author of any text containing the word “Catholic” that was written prior to the point in time in which the “Catholic” church they knew divided upon itself would use the same word “Catholic” (presumably meaning the Catholic denomination) today.

One certainly cannot assume that Ignatius or Augustine or the medieval writers would automatically identify the Roman Catholic Church today as *the *Catholic Church. But one can assume that they would look for one particular Christian body identifiable as the Catholic Church. If not the Roman Communion, what body might they identify as such? Why? And if none, what would that do to their theology? Would it mean that Christianity was false altogether? But even if not, one has to admit that they would have to learn to use the phrase “Catholic Church” in a manner very different than the one they were used to. If, on the other hand, they identified Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or confessional Lutherans or Reformed as the true Catholic Church, a continuation of the previous centuries of Christian tradition, then we can speak of the term retaining its original meaning.

Edwin

 

[O.S.Luke]

None of the churches I have been recently involved in are critical of the creeds or of any church that uses them regularly in worship. In fact I remember on occasion reciting them because the Pastor wanted the Congregation to know what they were. My only point is that we don’t regularly recite them every Sunday.

The UM church I grew up in said the Apostles’ Creed every Sunday. And every church I have been pastor of says the Apostles’ or Nicene Creed every Sunday… and they were before I was their pastor.

 

[jblake]

With Questions;:

It is presumptuous to assume that any author of any text containing the word “Catholic” that was written prior to the point in time in which the “Catholic” church they knew divided upon itself would use the same word “Catholic” (presumably meaning the Catholic denomination) today.

At least one of the Early Church Fathers used the word “Catholic”, to include those both within, and without the fold of the Bishop of Rome, but who were followers of Christ.

xan

jonathon

 

[mackbrislawn]

I have heard it said by many Baptists, “Our only creed is the word of God.” I am confident the Restoration Movement churches would say the same thing.

In regard to creeds, they are very ancient. It is even possible that the first creed came to be even before Christian scripture itself was written.

Paul seems to be reciting a creed in 1Cor 15:1-8: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain:

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received , that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeard to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep, then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

A creedal statement for Paul’s Christians even before scripture itself.