Protestant clergy sporting the Roman Collar

[Harpazo]

And if someone who was not a member of some form of Christian clergy showed up wearing a clerical collar, I would figure it must be Halloween . The collar goes with the position, rather than the sex of the person in the position.

I’m not sure how well you understand the Catholic view. Women can never be priests, it is not God’s will. This isn’t some misogynistic view, but rather a mandate from God. What you will find within the Church, is that the collar does go with the position, but that position is always held by a male. The priest is “in persona christi” and the Church is the Bride of Christ. (I’m sure you won’t argue Jesus Christ’s gender…) Since the Church has held that only a man and a woman may marry, this is perfect logic.

For the Church to allow a female to be a priest would be a complete contradiction. The Church must stay true to herself, because somebody has to.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[SyCarl]

I am 52 years old and I have never seen a Protestant minister who didn’t where a collar in the churches I have attended. While it is a tradition, Protestants do not reject all traditions, only those we feel are contrary to Scripture. Collars are not mentioned in Scripture but they have no effect on doctrine so we have no problem with them.

 

[Contarini]

Right, I understand it is a tradition. What I don’t understand is why these folks, most of whom are fairly adamant about rejecting certain Catholic teachings, but accepting others. This is hypothetical: Logically, if something were “wrong” with one part of Catholicism, why wouldn’t it be wrong with every part? Isn’t that the logic and reason for most Christians outside of the Church? That’s the vibe I’ve been getting

In Pax Christi
Andrew

There is no logic whatever in this statement. Why on earth do you think that if something wrong with one part of Catholicism something must be wrong with everything?

After all, Protestants accept many beliefs in common with Catholics. Why would people who believe in the Trinity and the Resurrection raise objections to a Roman collar? This argument makes no sense at all. Excuse me for my bluntness, but you need to think a little more about this.

Furthermore, most of the Protestants who wear collars are “mainline” and high-church Protestants and do not necessarily have vehement objections to Catholicism. Those who do in fact hate everything they associate with Catholicism do not generally wear collars.

The main significance of the collar is that it marks the wearer as an authorized clergyperson of some church or other. My father-in-law began wearing one while serving as a Methodist pastor in Mishawaka, Indiana, which is a strongly Catholic area. The point was not to pass himself off as Catholic (though at one point the local Catholic priest did enlist him to help administer Communion at a Mass–what can I say, it was the 70s and my father-in-law was just doing what the priest told him to do!), but simply to establish that he was an ordained clergyperson of the Methodist Church so that he could get access to hospital rooms to visit gravely ill people and things like that. In other words, in heavily Catholic areas people think of a collar as the mark of a clergyperson, and they find it hard to treat someone as clergy if they don’t have a collar. That is how my father-in-law explained it to me. Again, he had no desire to pretend to be Catholic, but his senior pastor told him that he needed to wear a collar as a sort of professional badge.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[KarenNC]

I’m not sure how well you understand the Catholic view. Women can never be priests, it is not God’s will.

I fully understand the position of the Catholic Church in regards to female clergy. I was not restricting myself to discussing only the wearing of the clerical shirt by Catholics, especially as the topic of the thread is “Protestant clergy sporting the Roman collar.” It is just as much a uniform when worn by Protestant clergy as it is by Roman Catholic clergy, hence my comment that it had to do with the position not the gender of the person in the position.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Right, I understand it is a tradition. What I don’t understand is why these folks, most of whom are fairly adamant about rejecting certain Catholic teachings, but accepting others. This is hypothetical: Logically, if something were “wrong” with one part of Catholicism, why wouldn’t it be wrong with every part? Isn’t that the logic and reason for most Christians outside of the Church? That’s the vibe I’ve been getting

In Pax Christi
Andrew

Likely they would reply that they have taken care to omit all the wrong parts, and are now just being good members of the “church catholic” minus the “Roman errors.”

I think that some rather like and enjoy the identification - as members of the clergy - that it offers. I suspect that more than a few of their congregation members like the assuring uniform as well. Accuse me of being overly attached to appearance, but I know when I see my doctor I prefer him in his white coat over the times he has been business casual in a pullover & khakis.

Interestingly clerical dress of the sort we are used to is of rather recent origin. Why it is the case that most Protestant clegy have not developped a distinctive seperate clerical dress in that same period, I cannot say. Perhaps outfitting various and sundry denominations with a wide variety of clothing meant to distinguish sectarian styles is or was simply too difficult - it would not be easy to keep distinctive Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal etc.

Interestingly, I have come to associate the “Anglican Style” “Dog collar” (all white, all the way around) and colorful (non-black) shirts with Episcopalians. When they had their triennial convention in our city a year or so ago, when the conference let out and the participants took to the local restaraunts, a sea of colorful shirts underneath sports jackets abounded. Not my taste in clerical fashion… of course, not really my taste in theology either.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I’m not sure how well you understand the Catholic view. Women can never be priests, it is not God’s will. This isn’t some misogynistic view, but rather a mandate from God. What you will find within the Church, is that the collar does go with the position, but that position is always held by a male. The priest is “in persona christi” and the Church is the Bride of Christ. (I’m sure you won’t argue Jesus Christ’s gender…) Since the Church has held that only a man and a woman may marry, this is perfect logic.

For the Church to allow a female to be a priest would be a complete contradiction. The Church must stay true to herself, because somebody has to.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

Fine, but we are not talking about female priests in the Catholic Church are we. We are not talking about something that is even Roman Catholic in origin.

You also questioned why Protestants might do anything that resembles Catholicism. Well, some things are not Catholic or Protestant, they are just Christian. And many Christian clergy of many denominations have historically worn the collar you called a “Roman” collar. You live in a very small world if you think it is uniquely Catholic. It isn’t, and it never has been.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

http://www.victoriousrobes.com/images2/cassock349.jpg
Now if I were to catch a glimpse of this fellow walking down the street, I would likely do a double take…

Of course I imagine clergy who wear such would limit it to church services, rather than “street dress”

For a year of seminary, I alternated between the Roman style and the “dog collar” if for no other reason than I liked to not look the same every single day!

 

[O.S.Luke]

Donald McLeod, an Anglican, invented the clerical collar as we know it today. It’s a Protestant invention.

For years, the clergy wore tunics that covered everything but the feet. Roman clergy in American were not instructed to wear a collar until the late 1800’s (one of the Baltimore plenaries, I believe).

O+

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sounds as if, from your post, that the Roman Catholics that are worrying about this issue need to revisit the issue at some later time.

Having said that ~ If it is so that the “clerical collar” was, in fact not “ROMAN CATHOLIC” in its origin, but was instead Protestant (which, by the way, is was, ordinary research shows)

Can we now AT LEAST stop FUSSING ABOUT CLOTHES?

With all due respect, don’t we all have more important questions to take care of?

 

[THutch04]

Just because Protestants reject some Catholic teachings doesn’t mean they reject every tradition (and as many have pointed out, the collar isn’t even a Catholic invention). It never bothers me whenever I see someone wearing a collar; it just helps me distinguish them as a member of the clergy.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Sounds as if, from your post, that the Roman Catholics that are worrying about this issue need to revisit the issue at some later time.

Having said that ~ If it is so that the “clerical collar” was, in fact not “ROMAN CATHOLIC” in its origin, but was instead Protestant (which, by the way, is was, ordinary research shows)

Can we now AT LEAST stop FUSSING ABOUT CLOTHES?

With all due respect, don’t we all have more important questions to take care of?

Would that the forums could take care of such things in and of themselves… I am hesitant to not at least allow for asking questions… Threads seem to live or die based on the interest, I say let people decide and vote with their participation…

 

[MelanieAnne]

Would that the forums could take care of such things in and of themselves… I am hesitant to not at least allow for asking questions… Threads seem to live or die based on the interest, I say let people decide and vote with their participation…

Asking questions is always a good idea because gaining knowledge is always a good idea. I only ask the question to stimulate thought.

Do we need to worry about the CLOTHES people wear? Even if they are Catholic priests? Protestant priests/ministers?

Would this be an issue if we weren’t talking about clergy and were just talking about fashion?

Or are there other issues, more important issues, that we should be focusing on?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Harpazo has only made one post since the “protestantness” of the “Roman” collar was established. That was to harp on women and the priesthood as irreconcilable. My guess is that having been shown to be in error in his complaints against Protestants, he has moved on to another thread to harp on something else that is wrong with Protestants.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Asking questions is always a good idea because gaining knowledge is always a good idea. I only ask the question to stimulate thought.

Do we need to worry about the CLOTHES people wear? Even if they are Catholic priests? Protestant priests/ministers?

Would this be an issue if we weren’t talking about clergy and were just talking about fashion?

Or are there other issues, more important issues, that we should be focusing on?

It is not that this is a MOST important issue… but so far what it has revelealed has been telling.

We are all at different levels in our understandings of ourselves and each other. For someone to wonder this and ask about it gives an opportunity to address what has likely been a question for many - at some point - even if in the back of their mind. In my experience, many people lurk their way through boards not actually asking a lot of the questions that cross their mind.

So what we have seen so far - aside from some semantics - is that:

1. Many protestants just consider this clerical, non-sectarian dress.
2. Many Protestants are comfortable with it, with a “higher church”/liturgical background especially
3. NO, Protestants do NOT reject everything associated with Catholic
4. As a matter of fact, many don’t think of this dress as being manifestly Catholic, however much a good deal of us associate it with Catholic clergy.
5. Some of the “Catholic” things Christians of Reformation patriomony still uphold or practice in common helps us to understand that many feel they are simply reformed catholics in the sense that they have held unto some things while let go of others. The fact it is not universally agreed upon what IS to be upheld and what is NOT, can be telling.

All in all, won’t solve the world’s problems, but is still more edifying - if done in charity with an interest in understanding - than say, watching re-runs of Frasier…

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Having said that ~ If it is so that the “clerical collar” was, in fact not “ROMAN CATHOLIC” in its origin, but was instead Protestant (which, by the way, is was, ordinary research shows)

Actually, to be more accurate, the “tab shirt” is a protestant invention.

For a pic, the man in the box #811 is wearing a classic “tab shirt” catholicsupply.com/churchs/clerstad.html

The actual Roman collar (not to be confused with the tab) differs in structure, but does not look like a white square in a band of black. It is a white collar with a notch in the black part of the cassock (or shirt). Generally speaking, when worn with the cassock or simar, it is a white band of plastic or linen that snaps or buttons together at the back of the neck and it attached to a rabat (pronounced rab-ee). The collar of the cassock generally has a notch at the throat which, combined with the collar and rabat give the proper Roman collar look. The collar can also be worn without any black covering it up, though this has seemingly fallen out of style with Catholic clergy.

There are also different types for certain religious orders, although this practice has kind of fallen out of style recently.

While the Roman collar as we think of it today was a fairly recent addition, it is definately Catholic in origin.

Concerning protestants wearing tab shirts, I really don’t care as it’s their business. Furthermore, the collar doesn’t mean “priest” and never has. Seminarians used to always wear it (and still do depending on the situation), deacons can wear it, etc. I’ve learned not to assume a man in a collar (be it a band, Roman, tab shirt, whatever) is a priest.

The cassock practically screams Catholic, and this why I personally don’t like the tab shirt and prefer a proper Roman cassock (Roman, French-cut Roman, or semi-Jesuit) or at least shirt front rabat (w/ Roman collar) and suit. “Tabulating” (a little bit of seminary slang) seems to result in the unbecoming practice of unbuttoning the top button of the tab shirt and allowing the tab to hang out like a tongue depresser or find its way into the front pocket.

Here’s some pics of men in the rabat vest (which is different from the much smaller cassock rabat) that show the full band collar and the Roman collar. Note also the appropriate use of French cuffs, which used to be kind of an unoffical part of the outfit and are now making a comeback.

almy.com/rabats.html

As to the importance of this discussion, no it isn’t a central issue but there are important ramifications. Clerical attire of some sort is to be worn by clergy as per Canon Law. It is generally edifying for the people to see their priests, deacons or even seminarians wearing the collar or cassock. In a way, clerical attire serves as the clerical equivalent of a wedding ring. Not wearing some sort of clergy clothing does not take away Orders, but generally it is somewhat suspicious for a priest to go out in “civies” if there is no real pressing reason to do so.

 

[lak611]

The actual Roman collar (not to be confused with the tab) differs in structure, but does not look like a white square in a band of black. It is a white collar with a notch in the black part of the cassock (or shirt). Generally speaking, when worn with the cassock or simar, it is a white band of plastic or linen that snaps or buttons together at the back of the neck and it attached to a rabat (pronounced rab-ee). The collar of the cassock generally has a notch at the throat which, combined with the collar and rabat give the proper Roman collar look. The collar can also be worn without any black covering it up, though this has seemingly fallen out of style with Catholic clergy.

Do you have any pictures of the Roman collar and rabat with a cassock?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

In matters of clerical attire(while not Protestant), the Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox) are by far the most ecumenical.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e8/Mar_Dinkha_IV_Khanaya.png

I count no less than three ecclesial influences present in such garb.

But does he sport the Papal Prada? This I cannot say.

 

[lak611]

In matters of clerical attire(while not Protestant), the Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox) are by far the most ecumenical.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e8/Mar_Dinkha_IV_Khanaya.png

I count no less than three ecclesial influences present in such garb.

But does he sport the Papal Prada? This I cannot say.

Is the hat something unique to the Assyrian Orthodox Church?

 

[jmcrae]

Then I wouldn’t have too much of a problem with it in that case. Its sort of like seeing female cops wearing ties. I’m not bothered by that. But if a woman showed up to the office in a necktie, that would be strange looking

My first job, the hiring manager told me he’d hire me (a woman) as long as I agreed to the office dress code - black pants, black shoes, white shirt, and tie. I did. No big deal (Annie Hall was a favourite movie of mine at the time) - he just about fell over backwards when I showed up to work the first day, but couldn’t say anything about it because he was the one who had told me to do it. (I needed the job; I wasn’t going to let the dress code stop me.)

 

[lak611]

My first job, the hiring manager told me he’d hire me (a woman) as long as I agreed to the office dress code - black pants, black shoes, white shirt, and tie. I did. No big deal (Annie Hall was a favourite movie of mine at the time) - he just about fell over backwards when I showed up to work the first day, but couldn’t say anything about it because he was the one who had told me to do it. (I needed the job; I wasn’t going to let the dress code stop me.)

If I saw you dressed like that I would probably think you were a restaurant employee. Many servers have to wear similar uniforms. Then again, ties are also part of the uniform for many girls who attend private schools. I never had to wear a tie as part of a uniform, but I did wear ties back in the 1980’s when they were popular. I think I saw something in Seventeen magazine. I asked my dad how to tie them.