Protestant Communion Help Needed

  • Thread starter Thread starter CMatt25
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No, I’m asserting that spiritual realities are spiritual. You are asserting that spiritual realities are carnal.
Do you deny that the human body has a soul?
Are you sure you understand Transubstantiation? Because it’s pretty obvious you didn’t get what I wrote. Perhaps some fellow Catholics can help you out.
As others have pointed out you think that transubstantiation has to do with essences when it does not.
You cannot understand the Gosples without understanding, and dealing in analogies. By definition, a parable is an analogy. Jesus used them constantly, as he did in all the cases I mentioned. Jesus is not literally a vine, but he is like a vine in some way. Jesus is not literally a wooden gate, but he is like one in some way.
I guess it’s been a while since you took the SAT. This is an analogy:

biscuit : butter :: hamburger : ketchup

Biscuits are not hamburgers and ketchup is not butter. Hence the relationship is by analogy only.

Look at Matthew 25:14-30. This is NOT an analogy:

master : slaves :: Jesus : Christians

Why is it not an analogy? Jesus IS the Master and Christians ARE His slaves. If you are saying this parable is just an analogy, you are denying that Jesus really is the Master of the Universe. If He’s not, then who is… He-Man?
 
Did the “rich young ruler” leave Jesus? Or was he simply walking away?
How would this make a difference?
Well, you’re drawing a parallel between him and the Jews who left Jesus because of another hard saying. They, clearly, could not stomach his command to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and understanding his meaning perfectly, left.

So, if you’re making a parallel you’ll have to prove that this “rich young ruler”, having understood with crystal clarity Jesus’ command, left because he understood it, but didn’t like it.
Well, there you go. That’s not what the passage literally says, yet you interpret it so. Why? Why do you put a spin on this passage that obviously makes it non-literal, but don’t do the same for John 6?
Well, because we understand the Scriptures in light of the Faith that provided it, of course!

We as Catholics have the treasury of the teaching of the Apostles; we have not divorced ourselves from the Faith committed once and for all to the saints. 👍

Thus, we are able to understand, given the guidance of the Apostles, what’s to be taken literally, and what’s to be taken figuratively.
 
So you’re telling me that, in none of the passages I provided, does Jesus demand unquestioning obedience? You’re telling me that when Jesus made radical claims in front of large crowds that turned them away and he didn’t bat an eye, that he was concerned with numbers? Clearly, you’re just being difficult and argumentative for the sake of being so.
 
We have no indication whether the disciples understood Jesus in John 6. You’re reading something into the passage that’s not there. It was a hard saying because they took him literally, just like Catholics do, which is not what he intended.
So here’s the very important point: *why didn’t Jesus call them back to correct their apparent misunderstanding? *

Instead, he knew that they understood him ever-so-clearly, but chose to leave rather than follow this “hard saying.”
Not sure what the relevance is here. Oh, I know, because nobody ever gets divorced or church shops in the Catholic church.
Right. There is no divorce. What God has joined let no man put asunder. If you divorce and remarry you commit adultery. (Not my words, BTW)

As far as church shopping among Catholics…well, if they leave the Catholic church that makes them

Protestants.
That’s why people go to another parish if they don’t like the priest.
So, again, there is no church shopping in Catholicism. I mean, if someone wants to go to another parish, that’s perfectly legit. But they’re not looking for a pastor who preaches a different doctrine with which they can agree… The pastor at Holy Infant Catholic Church is going to be preaching on the very same Gospel this Sunday as the pastor at Good Shepherd Catholic Church, who’s going to be preaching on the very same Gospel as the pastor at Immacolata…
Or if they have enough money to send to Rome they can get 2nd, 3rd, 4th…marriages blessed. No, no worldly conformance going on in the Catholic church at all.
Careful. This is very close to having Contempt for Catholicism.

You need to provide proof that someone has sent “enough money to Rome” and had 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages “blessed”. (What does that even mean? Do you mean convalidated?)
 
i guess it’s been a while since you took the sat. This is an analogy:

Biscuit : Butter :: Hamburger : Ketchup

biscuits are not hamburgers and ketchup is not butter. Hence the relationship is by analogy only.
😃
 
So you’re telling me that, in none of the passages I provided, does Jesus demand unquestioning obedience?
This, ckempston, is quite sad. You believe in a God who won’t allow you to question?

My faith does not teach unquestioning obedience.

A God who demands this is a monster. He is a god like that depicted by Islam.

Catholicism proclaims: * fides quaerens intellectum*. The greatest thinkers of Western civilization-- Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Pascal, Newman, Edith Stein, --were Catholic “questioners”.

So, yes, I’m telling you that nowhere–in any of those verses–does Jesus “demand unquestioning obedience.”

(Incidentally, I did not see “unquestioning” nor “obedience” in any of those verses.)
 
You’re telling me that when Jesus made radical claims in front of large crowds that turned them away and he didn’t bat an eye, that he was concerned with numbers? Clearly, you’re just being difficult and argumentative for the sake of being so.
Well, I certainly believe as a Catholic that Jesus was not a statistician trying to get the biggest team…

I’m just wondering where you, a non-Catholic Christian, get this understanding from. The verses about taking up your cross really don’t quite fit exegetically as supporting your claim.
 
I would like to respond to the OP. The sense I get from the passage in question is that:
  1. Jesus told them about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. He meant that His words, His attitude (the influence that He carried with Himself), His life’s actions, and then His sacrifice (which was yet to take place), are what would keep people alive in their souls. He meant that in the way of meditating on those teachings and on His life. There is nothing else that would keep people alive. In this way, He is the Bread of Life, and His blood is the real spiritual drink. In the meditating and considering these things, we keep ourselves pure through Him.
  2. The multitude of the disciples understood the sense of His words. Perhaps not in the way explained above, but in the sense of it, anyway.
  3. They considered that a hard saying. Not hard to understand, but hard to agree with and hard to give their heart to.
  4. So, they walked away. It was not lack of understanding, but lack of agreement and lack of willingness. (Willingness, because many of Jesus’ sayings taught about denying self in a way that humans are not naturally going to be excited about).
If this is the correct analysis, then the reason that He didn’t try to correct their misunderstanding was that there was no misunderstanding. The multitude simply chose (it was their choice) to walk away and give ear no more.

As for the ECFs, my only answer is that I feel comfortable with the possibility that they were wrong, because this seems to me the plain meaning of the passage.

Peace. I mean no argument. CMatt25 was asking, and I wanted to give an answer.

X
 
It seems that it is a “hard saying” to accept that bread and wine are actually the body/blood, soul and divinity of God Himself.
PRmerger, I of course understand what you are sayng and perhaps those who walked had difficulty with the idea of Christ being the divine Son of God. But you do understand, don’t you, that an alternative belief which has been spelled out for us as to what was hard, is that the reason some walked was because they were having a hard time understanding the spiritual sense in which Christ was speaking? In other words they may have been walking because they were mistakenly taking literally rather than figuratively what Christ had already explained as being spiritual. At least this is how I am understanding what has been addressed as another possible scenario regarding the walking away.

Catholics are always asking our fellow believers who do not believe in a physical RP, why didn’t Jesus stop those from walking. And I myself had never heard it explained in this other manner but I at least think it is a good thing to understand where others are coming from in faith. Peace.
 
I would like to respond to the OP. The sense I get from the passage in question is that:
  1. Jesus told them about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. He meant that His words, His attitude (the influence that He carried with Himself), His life’s actions, and then His sacrifice (which was yet to take place), are what would keep people alive in their souls. He meant that in the way of meditating on those teachings and on His life. There is nothing else that would keep people alive. In this way, He is the Bread of Life, and His blood is the real spiritual drink. In the meditating and considering these things, we keep ourselves pure through Him.
  2. The multitude of the disciples understood the sense of His words. Perhaps not in the way explained above, but in the sense of it, anyway.
  3. They considered that a hard saying. Not hard to understand, but hard to agree with and hard to give their heart to.
Now this, Xin, is where I can’t agree. What’s so difficult, especially for Jews, to agree to in your exegesis? The above understanding is much, much less difficult than Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. Yet there is no documentation that the Jews murmured among themselves that Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit.”

What you’re proposing is, well, quite easy to agree to, especially if one believes in the Numinous. Which, clearly, the Jews did.
 
PRmerger, I of course understand what you are sayng and perhaps those who walked had difficulty with the idea of Christ being the divine Son of God. But you do understand, don’t you, that an alternative belief which has been spelled out for us as to what was hard, is that the reason some walked was because they were having a hard time understanding the spiritual sense in which Christ was speaking?
As I stated above to Xin, quite frankly, I do not see anything hard about this understanding.

It’s a rather palatable understanding, rather. Don’t you think? :hmmm:

There is a time in the Gospels when the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be Divine. Do you know what they tried to do when they understood the blasphemy of Jesus’ words?

Why didn’t they do the same thing in John 6?
 
PR,
Thanks for the quick reply. What would be so hard to agree with about those statements is not necessarily the details of what He said, but His authority to say them. And, His authority to claim that “He - Jesus” is that One Bread of Life.
In other words, there may be many decent teachers. They may say many good things about life. In much of that, there may have been some truth.
However, all that being said, the one and only Authority about any of that is Jesus Himself.
I suppose there is some significance in this in the expression, “I am.” That may be a subtle reference to the name of the Almighty from the book of Exodus, “I AM THAT I AM”

So, to clarify, the difficulty is partly in the strenuousness of the specific teachings. And, partly in His claims of Authority for Himself.

As a personal note, I would add that in my life and in my heart, I have found that I could agree with many truths about how a person should behave. I mean truths spoken from many sources. But, in my experience (and I use this to try to clarify my meaning), it has only been as I considered and meditated on Jesus Himself and all that He was in His perfection and purity, that I have had any strength to live those things. So, it confirms to me that He is the bread of Life in that sense.

Again, I am only meaning to try to explain my understanding.

X
 
As I stated above to Xin, quite frankly, I do not see anything hard about this understanding.

It’s a rather palatable understanding, rather. Don’t you think? :hmmm:

There is a time in the Gospels when the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be Divine. Do you know what they tried to do when they understood the blasphemy of Jesus’ words?

Why didn’t they do the same thing in John 6?
Just a bit more, and then I will quit. Two comments
  1. It is one thing to say, “Well that seems a nice enough doctrine to preach.” However, it is another thing to see the depth of change, responsibility, and therefore need of help from God that such seemingly “easy” teachings really imply, when they are applied to our own life. So, therefore, no, I don’t think it is a very easily palatable understanding.
  2. Concerning why they didn’t attempt to kill him on this occasion. Those who were pushing for that solution were enemies to His influence from the beginning. These were people who had been listening. Perhaps it would do to say that they had a different perspective. IN this case, they perhaps lacked the feeling of power hunger that would drive one to the conclusion “He should die for that.” And, instead, their answer became, “I am not going to listen to that man any more.”
These are my thoughts.

Thanks for allowing me a little part in the discussion. CMatt25, thanks for the question.

X
 
As I stated above to Xin, quite frankly, I do not see anything hard about this understanding.

It’s a rather palatable understanding, rather. Don’t you think? :hmmm:

There is a time in the Gospels when the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be Divine. Do you know what they tried to do when they understood the blasphemy of Jesus’ words?

Why didn’t they do the same thing in John 6?
Why, PRmerger, would you think it would be so palatable for them to understand Jesus was divine and to believe He was their spiritual food and drink? And for them to “eat”/believe He would be sacrificing His flesh and blood for us? And if what you are asking is why they did not crucify in John 6, perhaps because it was not the will of God nor in His plan for the crucifixion to take place yet at that point. Just a thought. Peace.
 
Just a bit more, and then I will quit. Two comments
  1. It is one thing to say, “Well that seems a nice enough doctrine to preach.” However, it is another thing to see the depth of change, responsibility, and therefore need of help from God that such seemingly “easy” teachings really imply, when they are applied to our own life. So, therefore, no, I don’t think it is a very easily palatable understanding.
  2. Concerning why they didn’t attempt to kill him on this occasion. Those who were pushing for that solution were enemies to His influence from the beginning. These were people who had been listening. Perhaps it would do to say that they had a different perspective. IN this case, they perhaps lacked the feeling of power hunger that would drive one to the conclusion “He should die for that.” And, instead, their answer became, “I am not going to listen to that man any more.”
These are my thoughts.

Thanks for allowing me a little part in the discussion. CMatt25, thanks for the question.

X
X, and thank you for your responses. I sorta like trying to understand various beliefs and thoughts. Peace.
 
This, ckempston, is quite sad. You believe in a God who won’t allow you to question?
I said unquestioning obedience. You seem to be confusing this with intellectual curiosity. Unquestioning obedience means you obey even when you DON’T understand, which is precisely what Jesus teaches. Obedience PRECEDES understanding.

John 8:31b-32 “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

IF you obey THEN you will understand and THEN you will be set free.
My faith does not teach unquestioning obedience.
Then your faith is false.
A God who demands this is a monster. He is a god like that depicted by Islam.
This is as humanistic an argument as I’ve ever heard.
Catholicism proclaims: * fides quaerens intellectum*. The greatest thinkers of Western civilization-- Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Pascal, Newman, Edith Stein, --were Catholic “questioners”.
fids quaerens intellectum means precisely what I described above. Trust and obey first, THEN you will understand.
So, yes, I’m telling you that nowhere–in any of those verses–does Jesus “demand unquestioning obedience.”
(Incidentally, I did not see “unquestioning” nor “obedience” in any of those verses.)
Then either you can’t read for comprehension or you’re being obtuse. Having commands and keeping them = obeying.
 
Do you deny that the human body has a soul?
Yes, the human body is a soul. You do not possess a soul, you are a soul.
As others have pointed out you think that transubstantiation has to do with essences when it does not.
You’re wrong. newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
I guess it’s been a while since you took the SAT. This is an analogy:
biscuit : butter :: hamburger : ketchup
Biscuits are not hamburgers and ketchup is not butter. Hence the relationship is by analogy only.
Ok.
Look at Matthew 25:14-30. This is NOT an analogy:
master : slaves :: Jesus : Christians
Why is it not an analogy? Jesus IS the Master and Christians ARE His slaves. If you are saying this parable is just an analogy, you are denying that Jesus really is the Master of the Universe. If He’s not, then who is… He-Man?
Jesus is NOT the master in the story - that is what makes it an analogy. He is indeed THE Master, but the parable is not about being THE master, but a particular one - one that went on a journey who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. You again fail in reading comprehension. The opening verse of the PARABLE (which is, by definition, an analogy) is:

Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them.

“it will be** like**” = Jesus is making an analogy!!! Maybe next time you should try actually reading the verses before claiming it’s not an analogy.
 
There is not a word about essences in the transubstabtiation section. Transubstabtiation is a conversion of substance, not essence. Jesus is not present merely in essence.
Jesus is NOT the master in the story

Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them.
This was not an Aesop’s fable. Jesus was clearly talking about His own future journey–to heaven, to take the throne alongside His Father. He will return to judge the stewards based on their works.
“it will be** like**” = Jesus is making an analogy!!! Maybe next time you should try actually reading the verses before claiming it’s not an analogy.
And if you’re going to use “like” to demarcate symbolic things, what will you do with the word “is?”

Please be charitable.
 
My two cents
Code:
 1. **Protestants I know believe in the 'real presence' in a different sense.** They rely on the promise of Christ that "lo, I am with you always...." So, Jesus is present at communion, but also at every other service. You cannot logically speak of him as 'less present' here or there. He is present or not present.

 2. T**hat, however, is not the same as transforming the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.** To almost all Protestants that is symbolic language, like Christ saying that he is the gate, the door, the vine, etc. He often spoke in such allegorical language, so common in the Middle East then, and still today.

 3.** There were mystery cults during those times** that taught that if one consumed the blood of a god or goddess, one would take on some of the virtues, strength, etc. of that deity. Mithraism had some of that element in it. I believe the cult of Isis had a similar ritual. There is fear among many Protestants that early Christianity was influenced too much by such cults that were competing for followers. 

 4. **Although Judaism strongly rejected the idea of Christ as the Messiah, it did focus considerable attention upon the necessity of blood sacifice,** hence the sacrifice of live animals. This was and is part of other cultures as well.

 5.** To most liberal Protestants the thought of consuming the body and blood of Christ is simply not acceptable**. It seems too 'pagan' to them, something that is no longer palatable and logical in their mind. They also would object to the idea that a priest, through a ritual, can transubstantiate - that is, change bread and wine into Christ's body and blood. They regard communion as symbolism, perhaps important and powerful symbolism, but symbolism nonetheless.

 6. **Evangelical Protestants are more likely to focus on the blood sacrifice, and many of their popular hymns do that**. For example, "There is a fountain filled with blood, drawn from Immanuel's veins" or "There is power, power, wonder-working power, in the blood of the lamb..." They, too, reject transubstantiation. They range from Protestants who emphasize communion to those who treat if as tangential. 

 7. **Liturgical Protestants, such as Episcopalians and Lutherans, stress communion much more than Protestants of Calvinist or Wesleyan or Pentecostal heritage.** There is a trend among some of these Protestants, however, such as the Methodists, to put more emphasis on communion than years ago. It once was celebrated quarterly (four times a year) in most Methodist churches. Today, it is once a month, and many churches offer it weekly at, perhaps, an early service on Sundays. 

 8. **The main psychological barrier to transubstantiation among Protestants (and others) is that it shares too much in common (in their minds) with cannibalism**. Yes, Catholics may be turned off by this objection, but I believe it is what millions of Protestants simply cannot accept. A poll not long ago in *US Catholic* found that about one-half of all Catholics in America doubt or reject transubstantiation, also. 

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all who seek to live lives reflecting the love and commandments of Christ. May religion become more of a bridge and less of a barrier, with a growth in mutual respect for those with differing interpretations of scripture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top