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ckempston
Guest
Ok, I disagree.
You’re right. Sorry. Momentarily lost control of my sensitivities and was certainly a poor choice of words.
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PRmerger
Guest
What does “unquestioning” mean to you?
Here’s an example of how I understand it:
Father says: jump in the lake.
Son with unquestioning obedience says, “Yes, sir!”
Son with faith seeking understanding says, “I’m not understanding you. Why do you want me to jump in the lake?”
Father responds, “Because, son, there’s a treasure hidden there for you!”.
Son with faith seeking understanding, “Oh! I see!”
Jumps in the lake.
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PRmerger
Guest
:tiphat:
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Roy5
Guest
Cat HerderRe Post #68
One thing about Protestantism that I do personally find attractive - liberal Protestantism, that is, perhaps more correctly referred to as ‘big tent’ Protestantism - is the freedom adherents seem to have to develop their own perceptions of God, the universe, the world to come, etc. Of course, this ‘big tent’ Protestantism also comes under sharp attack from traditionalists, Catholic and Protestant, for being ‘heretical’, hazy, deniers of scripture, egotists, and much worse. Most people apparently prefer to follow a form of Christianity which delivers ‘the truth’, while liberal Protestants generally can live comfortably with large areas of uncertainty, respecting the differing views that others may hold. They are pleased to participate in ecumenical events with Catholics - for example - without hesitation. “Agree to disgree” and 'think and let think" could be two of their slogans.
‘Big tent’ Protestantism probably dominates among adherents of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterianism, Disciples of Christ, Methodism, Episcopalianism, and some forms of Lutheranism and even in some Baptist churches. Episcopalians and Lutherans tend to be more liturgical than the others, but perhaps no denomination is more liberal in some respects than the Episcopal Church. This is the principal reason that the Episcopal Church has been in the news so much because of controversy over ordination of gays, women bishops, etc.
God bless 'em all. I rather like them all, though I’ve been moving to the ‘big tent’ view. But for those who prefer traditional Catholicism or fundamentalist Protestantism - fine. Different strokes for different folks.
- I go to church not because God is more present there, since God is everywhere. Church is a time set aside to offer praise, seek God’s forgiveness, heard the Word, and participate together as brothers and sisters in the Christian community.
- I doubt if Jesus was in the womb of Mary in 1 BC or 1 AD, but scholars differ. The largest number seem to suggest that Jesus was born about 4 BC, or maybe 8 BC. During the time that Christ walked the earth, the Lord obviously was more apparent, but I’m not sure that God is ‘less’ here today than God was then. Most Protestants, like Catholics, believe that God took on a human form in the person of Jesus.
- Judaism is/was not a mystery religion, and I made reference to Judaism. Judaism, of course, rejects Christ as the Messiah and certainly does not recognition the vicarious sacrifice of Christ for the sins of humankind.
- You will not find mainline ‘big tent’ Protestants dancing around as they sing about being washed in the blood. That is found among evangelical Protestants, specifically (as for dancing) the Pentecostal variety, probably the fastest-growing branch of Christianity today, especially in Latin America and Africa. I was reading recently that in one Latin country - was it Brazil? - I forget - the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) built 1400 new churches in a year while the Catholics built one.
One thing about Protestantism that I do personally find attractive - liberal Protestantism, that is, perhaps more correctly referred to as ‘big tent’ Protestantism - is the freedom adherents seem to have to develop their own perceptions of God, the universe, the world to come, etc. Of course, this ‘big tent’ Protestantism also comes under sharp attack from traditionalists, Catholic and Protestant, for being ‘heretical’, hazy, deniers of scripture, egotists, and much worse. Most people apparently prefer to follow a form of Christianity which delivers ‘the truth’, while liberal Protestants generally can live comfortably with large areas of uncertainty, respecting the differing views that others may hold. They are pleased to participate in ecumenical events with Catholics - for example - without hesitation. “Agree to disgree” and 'think and let think" could be two of their slogans.
‘Big tent’ Protestantism probably dominates among adherents of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterianism, Disciples of Christ, Methodism, Episcopalianism, and some forms of Lutheranism and even in some Baptist churches. Episcopalians and Lutherans tend to be more liturgical than the others, but perhaps no denomination is more liberal in some respects than the Episcopal Church. This is the principal reason that the Episcopal Church has been in the news so much because of controversy over ordination of gays, women bishops, etc.
God bless 'em all. I rather like them all, though I’ve been moving to the ‘big tent’ view. But for those who prefer traditional Catholicism or fundamentalist Protestantism - fine. Different strokes for different folks.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Think long and hard about what you just said. Does the church/congregation/pastor have some additional power or authority to forgive your sins? Does any human? If so, where does that authority come from?
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ckempston
Guest
It means you do it whether you understand the reason or not.
Well that’s a good analogy.
However, unfortunately, we don’t have Jesus to audibly explain every detail of his teachings to us. Even Rome doesn’t claim to do that.I’d say after a few instances of asking “faith seeking understanding” types of questions, the son learns to just trust and obey first, knowing that understanding will come later if he doesn’t have it now.
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mountaintop
Guest
The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith
the more you understand the more faith you have.:tiphat:
:doh2:
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PRmerger
Guest
Are you really saying that God demands “unquestioning obedience”, mountaintop?The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith
the more you understand the more faith you have.:tiphat:
Really?
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Roy5
Guest
Cat Herder
No pastor, congregation or church has authority to forgive my sins or those of anyone else. As I had written I go to church, in part, to seek God's forgiveness. God is the only one capable of doing that. I have always felt that Catholicism teaches this, too, although Catholicism views the priest as an important instrument of God through which confessed sins are forgiven, though only if the sinner truly repents and honestly strives to avoid such sins again. As for any clergyman forgiving sins by himself - no, I don't believe that power rests with any human being. Being forgiven also depends,of course, upon our readiness to forgive others, as we all recite in the "Our Father".
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CMatt25
Guest
Different folks react differently to all sorts of things.
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estesbob
Guest
So this is another one of those cases where we are to ignore Scripture because it affirms a Doctrine of the Catholic Church?
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CMatt25
Guest
I’m not sure if you and ckempston really disagreed all that much or if it was more or less a little semantics in play. Are you saying though the Catholic Church Herself doesn’t demand obedience if one desires to be in the best of standings with Her, even if one reasons differently?Indeed.
“To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.” --CCC 892
“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth.”–Fides et Ratio
2 errors: to exclude reason; to exclude all but reason–Blaise Pascal
Which brings me to ckempston’s opinion that God demands “unquestioning obedience”. That is faith DEVOID and DIVORCED from reason. It is an aborted attempt to soar to the heavens relying on only one wing.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Do you consider your church to be a house of the Lord? Why, if He is no more present there than at your home?
If not then why go to church if you can seek forgiveness anywhere? Why not just stay home and pray, as the early Christians did? Doesn’t Acts 2 say we should sell our possessions to help the poor? If the church building is not any more the Lord’s house then yours and serves no purpose six days of the week, and is no better than your house on the other day, then why not sell it or convert it into a homeless shelter–especially since that is what the Bible says to do?
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wmscott
Guest
Hi Roy5, just a question if I may please, you state “No pastor, congregation or church has authority to forgive my sins or those of anyone else”. Is this your opinion or are you stating a fact? If stating a fact please provide the Scriptural references stating such. I would very much like to see any such passages. Thanks
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tester
Guest
Scipture provided:
Mark 2:7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
job 14:4
"Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! "
Micah 7:18
18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
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BlueShadow123
Guest
Catholics believe that once the priest prays over it, it really does become Jesus’s blood and body.
Protestants look at it more as symbolism than the ‘real’ thing.
Protestants look at it more as symbolism than the ‘real’ thing.
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Jesuit_Boy_63
Guest
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Perhaps it would be helpful if we define terms a bit more closely. When the Priest prepares to consecrate the bread and wine it is not so much praying over them but praying that he would be worthy to effect the main event. At the consecration the bread and wine actually becomes the body and blood of Our Lord. We Catholics refer to this as Transubstantiation, where the very substance of the bread and wine becomes the body and blood. Our Anglican brothers refer to this as Real Presense of Christ in the Sacrament.
Many, but not all, Protestant denominations view this celebration as symbolic and with good and proper reason for their view.
The key point from the Sacramental point of view is that the priest exercising the unique powers granted by his Holy Orders effects this change of substance.
Clergy who are not in Holy Orders lack this power/authority so their celebration is symbolic.
I suspect this subject will require a bit more conversation but in any case, Dominus vobiscum!
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BlueShadow123
Guest
I basically just said that without going into detail.
You believe it becomes Gods actual body and blood. That is what I said.
I am searching dilligently where Luther, or other Lutheran reformers stated this. I’ll let you know when and where I find this.
Jon
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estesbob
Guest
Probably the same place they found the Doctrines of Sola Scriptra and Sola FidelisI am searching dilligently where Luther, or other Lutheran reformers stated this. I’ll let you know when and where I find this.
Jon
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