Protestant Communion

[Shana]

A friend of mine has had a disease throughout her life where she couldn’t eat food with gluten. Over the weekend some of my protestant friends went to a service out of town and before they even got there my friend with the gluten disease felt that God was calling her to be healed and to come to His table. She found out when they got there that they were having a communion service. She felt that God was calling her to be healed, she normally wouldn’t take communion because she would react to it but she did and she was fine and ever since she’s been eating bread and stuff she’s fine it really is a miracle.

Now I understand God can work through Protestant services and Protestants have access to a lot of truth and grace just not the fullness like the Catholic Church has. My question is it seems to me that God could be causing confusion in calling her to His table to heal her almost as if confirming a false belief (which is disbelief in transubstantiation). What should I make of this? I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

 

[promethius]

A friend of mine has had a disease throughout her life where she couldn’t eat food with gluten. Over the weekend some of my protestant friends went to a service out of town and before they even got there my friend with the gluten disease felt that God was calling her to be healed and to come to His table. She found out when they got there that they were having a communion service. She felt that God was calling her to be healed, she normally wouldn’t take communion because she would react to it but she did and she was fine and ever since she’s been eating bread and stuff she’s fine it really is a miracle.

Now I understand God can work through Protestant services and Protestants have access to a lot of truth and grace just not the fullness like the Catholic Church has. My question is it seems to me that God could be causing confusion in calling her to His table to heal her almost as if confirming a false belief (which is disbelief in transubstantiation). What should I make of this? I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

perhaps this calling is as yet incomplete, and this is a simple first step in the direction of a call back to communion with the Real Presence. Pray for your friend.

 

[VociMike]

perhaps this calling is as yet incomplete, and this is a simple first step in the direction of a call back to communion with the Real Presence. Pray for your friend.

Good point. Perhaps this “Eucharistic miracle” will lead the friend to the greatest and ongoing Eucharistic miracle.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A friend of mine has had a disease throughout her life where she couldn’t eat food with gluten. Over the weekend some of my protestant friends went to a service out of town and before they even got there my friend with the gluten disease felt that God was calling her to be healed and to come to His table. She found out when they got there that they were having a communion service. She felt that God was calling her to be healed, she normally wouldn’t take communion because she would react to it but she did and she was fine and ever since she’s been eating bread and stuff she’s fine it really is a miracle.

Now I understand God can work through Protestant services and Protestants have access to a lot of truth and grace just not the fullness like the Catholic Church has. My question is it seems to me that God could be causing confusion in calling her to His table to heal her almost as if confirming a false belief (which is disbelief in transubstantiation). What should I make of this? I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

Maybe it’s just a misdiagnosis?

 

[promethius]

Maybe it’s just a misdiagnosis?

That was my other thought. Without reviewing the medical record, we can’t authoritatively call this a medical miracle. Especially since most people allergic to gluten that I know are deathly afraid of it and would never decide on a hunch, even a strong one, to take Communion other than under the species of wine. After all, consumption of gluten by a celiac can cause permanent damage. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed or even self-diagnosed improperly to think she was a celiac?

 

[1ke]

I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

He wouldn’t.

 

[ShellKell]

A friend of mine has had a disease throughout her life where she couldn’t eat food with gluten. Over the weekend some of my protestant friends went to a service out of town and before they even got there my friend with the gluten disease felt that God was calling her to be healed and to come to His table. She found out when they got there that they were having a communion service. She felt that God was calling her to be healed, she normally wouldn’t take communion because she would react to it but she did and she was fine and ever since she’s been eating bread and stuff she’s fine it really is a miracle.

Now I understand God can work through Protestant services and Protestants have access to a lot of truth and grace just not the fullness like the Catholic Church has. My question is it seems to me that God could be causing confusion in calling her to His table to heal her almost as if confirming a false belief (which is disbelief in transubstantiation). What should I make of this? I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

First of all I think it’s great your friend was healed. Secondly, your wrong in a couple of areas. No matter what your church says Protestant communion services are not invalid. Your church is the only one who thinks they have the fullness of truth. There are people within your own church who don’t believe that.

 

[promethius]

There are people within your own church who don’t believe that.

There are also “christians” who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. What’s your point? Protestants don’t hold valid powers of ordination, ergo they don’t have a valid eucharist. We can call it anything we want, but lacking objective reality to call their communion valid would be nothing more than a rosey lie.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

First of all I think it’s great your friend was healed. Secondly, your wrong in a couple of areas. No matter what your church says Protestant communion services are not invalid. Your church is the only one who thinks they have the fullness of truth. There are people within your own church who don’t believe that.

You have a lot to learn and are obviously ignorant to Christianity and the truths surrounding Apostolic Succession.

Fact is that only with a Catholic Church (RCC, EOC and OOC) will you find a Eucharist that is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Anglicans and Lutherans choose to believe they still have a valid Eucharist but that is wishful thinking or further ignorance.

You and many others would do well to learn about Christianity and maybe start from the beginning… 30 AD.

 

[JonNC]

A friend of mine has had a disease throughout her life where she couldn’t eat food with gluten. Over the weekend some of my protestant friends went to a service out of town and before they even got there my friend with the gluten disease felt that God was calling her to be healed and to come to His table. She found out when they got there that they were having a communion service. She felt that God was calling her to be healed, she normally wouldn’t take communion because she would react to it but she did and she was fine and ever since she’s been eating bread and stuff she’s fine it really is a miracle.

Now I understand God can work through Protestant services and Protestants have access to a lot of truth and grace just not the fullness like the Catholic Church has. My question is it seems to me that God could be causing confusion in calling her to His table to heal her almost as if confirming a false belief (which is disbelief in transubstantiation). What should I make of this? I’ve had experiences of Jesus in the Eucharist I know he’s there I’m just confused as to how he would work through an invalid communion service as if to confirm it?

Perhaps giving thanks to God that, as the CCC says, “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…” would be a good response. And the Catholic can take comfort that, finishing the sentence, “…whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.”
(CCC 819)
And this is supported by none other than Cardinal Ratzinger, whose quote, in part, is in my signature, which is found here:

1. Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church.(164) The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.(165)

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Perhaps things are not as black and white as we sometimes want to think. And of course, God will do as He pleases.

Jon

 

[LilyM]

For one thing, there are degrees of intolerance to gluten that are less than the level of intolerance that the celiac would have.

And such intolerances can end over time, if a person becomes desensitised to the gluten. Possibly your friend was unknowingly ingesting small amounts of gluten for a while (it’s in lots of foods that you might not suspect) or something, and became desensitised.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

JonNC,

I would love for Lutherans to be Catholic again. That is what Jesus wants as we can see in JOHN 17 (Be one as the Father and Jesus are One).

But it has been stated by the Pope that the Lutheran priesthood is no longer valid. I think we could take your quotes and see this to be true. The Pope wants communion again with the Lutherans so they can have valid priests again. But there is a history here that shows Lutherans were not able to maintain valid ordinations and thus valid Eucharist.

I am sure we can find in Lumen Gentium or some other writing that supports what I am saying.

Besides has there ever been a reported Eucharistic Miracle in any other church besides Catholic? I do not think so.

Shalom,

Jack

 

[teachccd]

He wouldn’t.

Are you God? HHMMM…

 

[1ke]

Are you God? HHMMM…

Read what the OP said– she was talking about working through Protestant communion and confirming a falsehood.

No he wouldn’t confirm what is not true.

I did not say Christ could not work through Protestants (and neither did the OP)-- but He cannot confirm a falsehood. It is contradictory to His nature.

 

[ShellKell]

You have a lot to learn and are obviously ignorant to Christianity and the truths surrounding Apostolic Succession.

Fact is that only with a Catholic Church (RCC, EOC and OOC) will you find a Eucharist that is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Anglicans and Lutherans choose to believe they still have a valid Eucharist but that is wishful thinking or further ignorance.

I understand that you have read your catechism well. The problem is that you only believe what you leaders have told you to believe, but you are ignorant of what God’s church is. Staking claim to something doesn’t make it yours. It’s the word of God, yet your church claims it as theirs. Your leaders have misinterpreted Scripture so as to give them the authority that only God deserves. There are many things in Catholic doctrine that are designed to give the your leaders power, control and authority over it’s members.

 

[GJx86]

I understand that you have read your catechism well. The problem is that you only believe what you leaders have told you to believe, but you are ignorant of what God’s church is. Staking claim to something doesn’t make it yours. It’s the word of God, yet your church claims it as theirs. Your leaders have misinterpreted Scripture so as to give them the authority that only God deserves. There are many things in Catholic doctrine that are designed to give the your leaders power, control and authority over it’s members.

Circumstantial ad hominem much?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC,

I would love for Lutherans to be Catholic again. That is what Jesus wants as we can see in JOHN 17 (Be one as the Father and Jesus are One).

But it has been stated by the Pope that the Lutheran priesthood is no longer valid. I think we could take your quotes and see this to be true. The Pope wants communion again with the Lutherans so they can have valid priests again. But there is a history here that shows Lutherans were not able to maintain valid ordinations and thus valid Eucharist.

I am sure we can find in Lumen Gentium or some other writing that supports what I am saying.

Besides has there ever been a reported Eucharistic Miracle in any other church besides Catholic? I do not think so.

Shalom,

Jack

Hi Jack,
The position of the Catholic Church is as you state, and it is right for you as a Catholic to hold that position. And you might think it odd, but I respect you for doing so. As you might expect, Lutherans respectfully disagree. I think the point that the Cardinal and the Catholic participants in this dialogue are trying to say is that the more we talk, the less black and white our differences become. What the statements do say is that, even if you believe the Church of Rome to be the Church established by Christ, the Holy Spirit continues to work through other communions, bringing saving grace. That He could work a Eucharistic miracle in whatever communion the OP’s story takes place in ought to be dismissed only with great care and forethought, as none here I think would deny His ability to do so.

Jon

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hi Jack,
The position of the Catholic Church is as you state, and it is right for you as a Catholic to hold that position. And you might think it odd, but I respect you for doing so. As you might expect, Lutherans respectfully disagree. I think the point that the Cardinal and the Catholic participants in this dialogue are trying to say is that the more we talk, the less black and white our differences become. What the statements do say is that, even if you believe the Church of Rome to be the Church established by Christ, the Holy Spirit continues to work through other communions, bringing saving grace. That He could work a Eucharistic miracle in whatever communion the OP’s story takes place in ought to be dismissed only with great care and forethought, as none here I think would deny His ability to do so.

Jon

Jon,

In this I agree. The Holy Spirit goes where He may. The Lutheran church is still very close in resemblance to the Catholic Church for which Martin Luther left.

I know that miracles happen in other churches and that it is not exclusive to Catholicism, it would be very foolish to think the Spirit only worked through the Catholic Church. Especially since Catholics in the USA are some of the biggest hypocrites. With only 20% of all Catholics in the USA attending church every week, even though it is required, it is obvious that USA Catholics are more of this world then not. And with less than 50% of all USA Catholics believing in the Real Presense of the Eucharist it shows a lack of Faith and education.

So, I am not placing the USA Catholic Church above Protestant churches in regards to it’s laity because our church is sorely lacking. If it were a matter of piety then many Protestant churches would be more active. BUT… how much better it would be if these pious Protestants were joined with the Church that Jesus established (the Catholic Church). With all the 7 Sacraments and a valid Eucharist the works of the Holy Spirit could be so much greater.

God Bless you

Jack

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

In this I agree. The Holy Spirit goes where He may. The Lutheran church is still very close in resemblance to the Catholic Church for which Martin Luther left.

I know that miracles happen in other churches and that it is not exclusive to Catholicism, it would be very foolish to think the Spirit only worked through the Catholic Church. Especially since Catholics in the USA are some of the biggest hypocrites. With only 20% of all Catholics in the USA attending church every week, even though it is required, it is obvious that USA Catholics are more of this world then not. And with less than 50% of all USA Catholics believing in the Real Presense of the Eucharist it shows a lack of Faith and education.

So, I am not placing the USA Catholic Church above Protestant churches in regards to it’s laity because our church is sorely lacking. If it were a matter of piety then many Protestant churches would be more active. BUT… how much better it would be if these pious Protestants were joined with the Church that Jesus established (the Catholic Church). With all the 7 Sacraments and a valid Eucharist the works of the Holy Spirit could be so much greater.

God Bless you

Jack

Thanks, Jack, and His blessings with you, as well.
I would say, however, that sometimes we are more critical of our own, as I find myself very critical of my own Lutheran faith, as we have lost some of that Catholic-ness that you mentioned, and Luther himself would not have rejected. From the outside, I see a very active presence of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church today. So, if you are frustrated, I hope you take comfort from my personal observation.
As for unity, I share the hope and prayer with you. I strongly believe that the reformation in unfullfilled and unfinished until full unity is established.

Jon

 

[maryjk]

For one thing, there are degrees of intolerance to gluten that are less than the level of intolerance that the celiac would have.

And such intolerances can end over time, if a person becomes desensitised to the gluten. Possibly your friend was unknowingly ingesting small amounts of gluten for a while (it’s in lots of foods that you might not suspect) or something, and became desensitised.

Ding, ding, ding. Give Lily a prize.

I have Celiac. I have had it for a number of years. But I was diagnosed only 2 years ago. Before that, I would eat bread, crackers and pasta with no problem.

It wasn’t until I had a blood test that said my iron levels were so low, they wanted me to have a blood transfusion, that I even knew there was a problem. Further testing showed Celiac.

When I stopped eating wheat, my iron levels came up. If I slipped and had some wheat, it wasn’t a big deal. No real problems. NOW, since it has been so long since I have had wheat, if I get just a little bit of it, look out. It is like I have a stomach virus.

Now, I know someone else that has Celiac. In fact, I know quite a few. But one of them eats wheat about once a week. She also receives regular Communion, rather than the very low gluten Communion. She doesn’t have any problems with it. It is because she eats wheat when she shouldn’t.

So it could be that the OP’s friend eats wheat often enough to not have visible signs. If she does have Celiac, she should have a blood test and a biopsy. That would show the real picture. If she didn’t have celiac, but maybe a low level gluten intolerance, it could that she grew out of it or as Lily said, she could have become less sensitive to it.