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Publisher
Guest
It may well be…but only two so far have stated so. As I said in my previous post…I would be more than willing to restate Quaker belief so as not to insult your sensibilities if you instruct me how to do so.
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Mickey
Guest
I wouldn’t take a poll if I were you.
I suppose it is too late. You not only insulted people’s “sensibilities”—you insulted the entire Catholic and Orthodox faith.
I guess the only thing you could do—would be to ask the moderators to delete your post.
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manualman
Guest
Read it again. The article doesn’t “call Christ in the Eucharist meaningless and hypocritical.” The observance on the part of someone apathetic to the meaning of the Eucharist is “meaningless and hypocritical.” This is different than you took it to be.“The presence of Christ with his church does not occur by symbol or representation, but in the real communication of his Spirit. If the believer experiences such spiritual baptism and communion, then no rite or ritual is necessary; whereas, if the rite or ritual is observed without the inward transformation which these outward sacraments are intended to symbolize, then the observances become meaningless and hypocritical."
You didn’t just say you disagreed with the beliefs and practices; you posted information that called Christ in the Eucharist “meaningless and hypocritical”.
Does that bring light into your ignorance of why people are insulted by what you posted? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that your post would rub Catholics in the wrong way. If you don’t see this then I’m glad you are not a rocket scientist.
Publisher certainly holds different and incompatible beliefs than us. He’s wrong in believing that nothing happens in the host in such cases (Quaker belief), but that isn’t insulting. It’s just his belief. And let’s face it, we DO have rather a problem of “hypocritical” catholics attending mass out of cultural momentum and habit rather than deep religious conviction about what it is they are a part of.
Many, many protestants don’t believe that there is an objective real change that occurs at consecration (bread is no longer bread, it is flesh). This stems from a subtle defect in their worldview that the physical world has no real meaning and only the spirit world is of importance. Catholicism, by contrast admits no real dualism: we are a UNION of body and soul. The physical world is just as real and God-made as the spiritual aspect of our beings. The two are only artificially and temporarily separable (between death and resurrection). To us, it is no surprise that God works in both invisible / spiritual ways and tangible, tasteable and feelable ones.
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Publisher
Guest
Moderators, Please review this thread and if you determine that I insulted the entire Catholic and Orthodox faiths, then please be so kind as to remove my post and instruct me in how to state Quaker beliefs so as not to be “insulting” to your faith traditions.I wouldn’t take a poll if I were you.
I suppose it is too late. You not only insulted people’s “sensibilities”—you insulted the entire Catholic and Orthodox faith.
I guess the only thing you could do—would be to ask the moderators to delete your post.
I will notify the moderators and let them make the decision.
Will this suffice?
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Publisher
Guest
I have sent a “report” to the Moderators asking that they either remove the “offending” post OR modify it to remove any “insults” and to instruct me as to how to post Quaker belief that will not “insult” either Orthodox or Catholic readers.
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Mickey
Guest
I think you should read it again. It made the reference to a “ceremonial and outward observance”. I believe it is insulting.
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Mickey
Guest
Fair enough. Let the moderators speak.
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Publisher
Guest
Perhaps you should exercise your own rights and report the post as “insulting”…Perhaps it would carry more weight coming from you.
I did post the statement…even though I didn’t write it…How would you like it stated? That would help to know so when we have a thread on “Protestant Communion” no one mistakenly insults the entire Orthodox and Catholic communions.
I still would like to have your (name removed by moderator)ut on how you wish Quaker belief stated.
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manualman
Guest
You mean you haven’t met any nominal catholics for whom mass attendance is a “ceremonial and outward observance” that hasn’t penetrated their soul? Where do you live so I can move there!?
Quaker beliefs ARE incompatible with ours in that they don’t believe in an objectively real Eucharist. But simply stating their belief isn’t insulting ours. If we get insulted when that happens, we are no better than the muslim nations who forbid “blasphemy” such as stating the Muhammed wasn’t a genuine prophet. There’s a guy in Pakistan currently serving a life sentence for allegedly buring a Quran. I’m not interested in going that direction. Jesus has a thick skin, he’s taken worse abuse and it was HIS idea to place himself in such a vulnerable place as the host. He had to expect a certain amount of disrespect from unbelievers. Shoot, he probably gets just as much abuse from us believers…
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Mickey
Guest
I will.
Without insults to the Holy Eucharist.
Without insults to the Holy Eucharist.
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Publisher
Guest
Would you be so kind as to provide an example of how to state Quaker belief without “insults to the holy eucharist”? That would assist me in the future to not cause “insult” when discussing Quaker belief on a Non-Catholic thread.
A written example of how you wish it done would be of great value. If you wish to PM me the response you are more than welcome…or respond her publically…either way is fine by me.
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Mickey
Guest
I am Orthodox. And I try not to make judgements on my fellow Orthodox Christians’ understanding of the Holy Eucharist. It was the same when I was in communion with Rome.
I understand that.
The article is deceptive. Take this comment: “However, the life to which we are called is one which is deeper than all ceremonies and outward observance”.
That seems to indicate that the life they are called to is deeper than our “trivial” ceremonies and outward observance. You see, it is not simply stating their belief–it is also passing judgement in a negative way on ours.
Yes. And I do not mind when others verbalize their own beliefs. But when you slide in a jab at the Eucharist…well…I think that is just wrong.
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Mickey
Guest
Perhaps it is time that you give it a rest. Let the moderators handle it. We know how you feel.
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Lapey
Guest
Easy, just don’t call Christ meaningless and hypocritical…simple enough?
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Publisher
Guest
Good idea, that would be a welcome change.
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Mickey
Guest
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manualman
Guest
I don’t need to make judgements (nice jab yourself, by the way), I can read poll data. The data speaks for itself. We have a problem and closing our eyes and saying “I won’t judge” doesn’t make it go away.I am Orthodox. And I try not to make judgements on my fellow Orthodox Christians’ understanding of the Holy Eucharist. It was the same when I was in communion with Rome.
I understand that.
The article is deceptive. Take this comment: “However, the life to which we are called is one which is deeper than all ceremonies and outward observance”.
That seems to indicate that the life they are called to is deeper than our “trivial” ceremonies and outward observance. You see, it is not simply stating their belief–it is also passing judgement in a negative way on ours.
Yes. And I do not mind when others verbalize their own beliefs. But when you slide in a jab at the Eucharist…well…I think that is just wrong.
I admit there are times when Publisher has gotten under my skin as well. But when you step back and analyze why, it is because he is stating his beliefs confidently. That DOES irritate when he confidently states something that as catholics (note the small c there, eh?), we know is an error. But we can be big boys about it because we confidently state OUR beliefs too.
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Mickey
Guest
Huh?
Your Church teaches definitively about the Eucharist. Don’t worry about the poll data. Teach the doctrine of the Eucharist if the opportunity presents itself—and work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Again–that is okay. But don’t denigrate the Eucharist. There is no room for compromise here.
That smelt like relativism.
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manualman
Guest
That’s just the pastoral “accidents.” The substance is uncompromising.That smelt like relativism.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
The Catholic Eucharist is the most unique of all “real presence.” No other church can compare the mystery that was passed on by Christ that Holy Thursday that culminated that Friday that we call Good.Wow! Such an insulting article!
Nothing is deeper or more meaning than receiving the most precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. It is the focus of the Liturgy. It is the pinnacle of our lives as Christians. All meaning of our Christian exsistence begins with the Eucharist. It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.
To claim that it is some ritualistic ceremony or outward observance is blasphemy.
As a Lutheran, I found this insulting; but it’s someone’s opinion and they are welcome to it. I wholeheartedly disagree with it, but they are welcome to it. I certainly don’t think the Catholic keeping of this mystery is any less than the Anglican, Lutheran or any of the denominations that believe in a real presence, but I certainly don’t think it’s any greater. I would not expect the poster to ever change that opinion, and I would hope he, or she, would never expect me to adopt it.
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