Protestant Communion?

[LutheranScholar]

You might want to discuss the “other lung” comment with Pope Francis. He was specifically referring to the Eastern Orthodox church when I heard him say it. And as for Luther being “catholic,” he didn’t end up that way, after he broke from Rome, and his tirades against the pope and the cardinals certainly distinguish him from the Roman Catholic faith and fueled the protestant/evangelical view that the catholic church is the “whore of babylon.” And his veneration of Mary was specifically for his own devotion. He did not mandate that practice in orthodox Lutheran doctrine.

as far as the Lutheran church being many groups, there are several synods, (lke the Catholic church as many orders, but are of one church) such as ELCA, The Missouri Synod, which I attended for a short time (and they NEVER had the adoration of the Eucharist) and the Missouri Synod, among others, and none of them are particularly catholic. The Missouri Synod has gone over to the Hypercharismatic evangelical movement and they NEVER have the adoration of the eucharist. They are too busy speaking in tongues, doing holy dancing and all the other behavior that accompanies that form of worship.

Interesting. The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod congregation I attend is extremely liturgical in nature. We have private Confession and Absolution and our worship is really quite sedate. We’ve got an Altar Rail, we tell people in our bulletin that we believe that the Body and Blood of Jesus is in, with and under the bread and wine. I think if anybody tried to speak in tongues, they’d be escorted out, or somebody would call an ambulance. You’re right, though. It’s in our Confessions that we are not to adore the Eucharist. We are to take and eat and take and drink, according to Our Lord’s command.

 

[KjetilK]

You might want to discuss the “other lung” comment with Pope Francis. He was specifically referring to the Eastern Orthodox church when I heard him say it.

You didn’t say pope Francis, you said ‘the Vatican.’ And in Vatican II, and in the catecism of the Roman Catholic Church, the comment is about the Eastern tradition, and in particular the Eastern Catholic churches. That could include Orthodoxy, but cannot be reduced to it. Or are you suggesting that the Greek-Catholic Churches, the eastern churches in communion with Rome, is not one of the lungs?

And as for Luther being “catholic,” he didn’t end up that way, after he broke from Rome, and his tirades against the pope and the cardinals certainly distinguish him from the Roman Catholic faith and fueled the protestant/evangelical view that the catholic church is the “whore of babylon.”

Now you are begging the question, defining ‘catholic’ as being in communion with the Roman Pontiff (which would exclude Orthodoxy from catholicity, btw), and you are doing the same fault that many (mosty American) Roman Catholic apologists do, as you conflate everything not Roman Catholic and Orthodox into a meaningless blob called ‘Protestantism.’

And his veneration of Mary was specifically for his own devotion. He did not mandate that practice in orthodox Lutheran doctrine.

And?

as far as the Lutheran church being many groups, there are several synods, (lke the Catholic church as many orders, but are of one church) such as ELCA, The Missouri Synod, which I attended for a short time (and they NEVER had the adoration of the Eucharist) and the Missouri Synod, among others, and none of them are particularly catholic. The Missouri Synod has gone over to the Hypercharismatic evangelical movement and they NEVER have the adoration of the eucharist. They are too busy speaking in tongues, doing holy dancing and all the other behavior that accompanies that form of worship.

First, I don’t think you understood my point at all. Yes, there are different synods, and different churches in the Lutheran tradition. But there is also different churches in the Byzantine tradition. Is that a problem for Byzantinism as such?

Second, you are in fact wrong about the LCMS. There are congregations within the LCMS that do practice Eucharistic adoration and which celebrate Corpus Christi.

 

[steido01]

Second, you are in fact wrong about the LCMS. There are congregations within the LCMS that do practice Eucharistic adoration and which celebrate Corpus Christi.

Yep.

All LCMS churches practice Eucharistic Adoration, at least during the Liturgy of the Sacrament (typically kneeling during distribution, bowing before approaching the rail, genuflection when approaching, etc.). Some few LCMS churches even keep the old Corpus Christi processions outside of the Liturgy, but do so with the important distinction from the Roman practice: that Body and Blood is/was consecrated to be consumed (as Christ prescribed), not simply to be adored. Yet to avoid any confusion among the laity, it remains standard LCMS practice to consume all that has been consecrated.

As for the small Pentecostalist movement, that’s been largely stamped out. Not so in my local Roman Catholic diocese, with its “Kyrios” camps and whatnot.

 

[Contarini]

as far as the Lutheran church being many groups, there are several synods, (lke the Catholic church as many orders, but are of one church) such as ELCA, The Missouri Synod, which I attended for a short time (and they NEVER had the adoration of the Eucharist) and the Missouri Synod, among others, and none of them are particularly catholic. The Missouri Synod has gone over to the Hypercharismatic evangelical movement and they NEVER have the adoration of the eucharist. They are too busy speaking in tongues, doing holy dancing and all the other behavior that accompanies that form of worship.

That’s a huge generalization that no doubt applies to your necessarily narrow experience, but not to LCMS as a whole.

Edwin

 

[RyanBlack]

No, Jesus is only present is the consecrated Host by an ordained Catholic priest.

Priests of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, as well as priests of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, along with priests of the Polish National Catholic Church all have valid Holy Orders, and therefore validly celebrate the Eucharist.

 

[chesterlab]

Elizium,here is an article on the western and eastern church by the Catholic World Report. Pope JP II was the first one to say that the eastern church is the “other lung of the church.” I am providing the link here. catholicworldreport.com/Item/1539/both_lungs.aspx

And here is an article from Catholic On line, which quotes Pope Francis referring to the “two lungs” of the church. catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=50211

I saw him in a live interview commenting on the eastern church being the other lung, but I can’t find that at the moment. The two articles above should provide you with all the proof you need.

 

[In_His_Grace]

No, Jesus is only present is the consecrated Host by an ordained Catholic priest.
The devil can testify this in any exorcism for he flees away!

Some Protestant denominations (e.g. Lutherans) believe in the Real Presence. According to the Catholic Church what meaning, if any, is there in Protestant Communion?

Thanks

 

[Thorolfr]

as far as the Lutheran church being many groups, there are several synods, (lke the Catholic church as many orders, but are of one church) such as ELCA, The Missouri Synod, which I attended for a short time (and they NEVER had the adoration of the Eucharist) and the Missouri Synod, among others, and none of them are particularly catholic. The Missouri Synod has gone over to the Hypercharismatic evangelical movement and they NEVER have the adoration of the eucharist. They are too busy speaking in tongues, doing holy dancing and all the other behavior that accompanies that form of worship.

My partner who was raised Missouri Synod and is the son of a Missouri Synod pastor was a little surprised and skeptical when I told him what you said about people in the Missouri Synod speaking in tongues or dancing around. He told me once about what an uproar there was in one of his father’s Missouri Synod churches growing up when his father asked people to pass the peace and actually shake hands with each other and how people were more likely to look at your shoes when talking to you rather than look you in the face. Even in the ELCA congregation we now attend which is full of people of Scandinavian stock, things are pretty sedate.

 

[chesterlab]

Well, with all due respect, I don’t really care if your partner experienced the charismatic movement in a missouri synod lutheran church. I did, and it was in a MSL church in Walden, Orange County, NY. I might add that the hypercharismatic movement has spread to even some calvinist churches, a denomination which I never would have thought would accept such forms of worship. Frankly I was shocked. My sons and I finally left this church after a short time because it was heretical, in my opinion.

 

[chesterlab]

The eastern Rite Churches, such as Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Melkite, Maronite, etc are NOT in schism with Rome. They are in full communion with Rome, and we Roman Catholic are able to take the eucharist in those churches. i’m not sure where your ideas come from but the Eastern Rite churches are in FULL communion with Rome. The orthodox are a different story,but the Vatican is working on a restoration of both sects of orthodoxy and Catholism.

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, with all due respect, I don’t really care if your partner experienced the charismatic movement in a missouri synod lutheran church. I did, and it was in a MSL church in Walden, Orange County, NY. I might add that the hypercharismatic movement has spread to even some calvinist churches, a denomination which I never would have thought would accept such forms of worship. Frankly I was shocked. My sons and I finally left this church after a short time because it was heretical, in my opinion.

I’m wasn’t saying that what you experienced didn’t happen or that such charismatic movements don’t exist in the Missouri Synod, just that it’s surprising to me. I think that most Lutherans I know would be surprised, too.

As for this being heretical, I’m not sure about that. A number of years ago, I went to visit my father’s uncle and went with him once to his Pentecostal church and they were speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor which kind of shocked me at the time. But I think that such things have existed among some groups of Christians from the very beginning. It’s just a different kind of spirituality and no less valid than any other.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I’m wasn’t saying that what you experienced didn’t happen or that such charismatic movements don’t exist in the Missouri Synod, just that it’s surprising to me. I think that most Lutherans I know would be surprised, too.

As for this being heretical, I’m not sure about that. A number of years ago, I went to visit my father’s uncle and went with him once to his Pentecostal church and they were speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor which kind of shocked me at the time. But I think that such things have existed among some groups of Christians from the very beginning. It’s just a different kind of spirituality and no less valid than any other.

A lot of this is our comfort zone, isn’t it? I watched a video of a Catholic Mass in southern Africa (and I’m sorry I cannot remember the parish name nor even the country) and they were dancing and singing and drumming. It was absolutely wonderful! The priest was right in there shaking his tail.

If we were to transplant some pious Western people to that parish, it might be a bit of a jolt.
But what a wonderful jolt it would be!

 

[Contarini]

My partner who was raised Missouri Synod and is the son of a Missouri Synod pastor was a little surprised and skeptical when I told him what you said about people in the Missouri Synod speaking in tongues or dancing around. He told me once about what an uproar there was in one of his father’s Missouri Synod churches growing up when his father asked people to pass the peace and actually shake hands with each other and how people were more likely to look at your shoes when talking to you rather than look you in the face. Even in the ELCA congregation we now attend which is full of people of Scandinavian stock, things are pretty sedate.

This is actually one of the controversies in the LCMS, now that they’ve purged out the liberals. . . .

If your experience is only with the straightlaced high-church types, it can be shocking to learn that the other folks exist.

In Indiana, where I used to live, the local seminary was very high-church, but some of the congregations nonetheless had been infiltrated by contemporary worship, etc. (not charismatic worship per se as far as I know), and naturally this disturbed the seminary folks.

Edwin

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Protestant ecclesial communities are not Churches, because they lack the seven sacraments and apostolic succession.

That is not true. The Episcopal church has Apostolic succession. What sacrament is the Episcopal church missing?

 

[JonNC]

Hi Chesterlab,
Just a couple of comments

=chesterlab;13197709] And his veneration of Mary was specifically for his own devotion. He did not mandate that practice in orthodox Lutheran doctrine.

It is my understanding that, while Catholics are bound to believe in all of the dogmatically defined Marian doctrines, no Catholic is required to “practice” things such as invocation of the Blessed Virgin. If I am correct, why would one expect Lutherans to?
Further, Luther never had the power to mandate anything. He was a priest. Influential, yes, but a priest.

The Missouri Synod, which I attended for a short time (and they NEVER had the adoration of the Eucharist) and the Missouri Synod, among others, and none of them are particularly catholic.

If Lutherans kneel during the liturgy of the Sacrament, they are practicing adoration. If a Lutheran kneels or bows or crosses himself during the Words of Institution, that is Eucharistic adoration. If she kneels to receive the sacrament, she is kneeling because He is present in the sacrament. That is Eucharistic adoration.

The Missouri Synod has gone over to the Hypercharismatic evangelical movement and they NEVER have the adoration of the eucharist. They are too busy speaking in tongues, doing holy dancing and all the other behavior that accompanies that form of worship.

I have been a Lutheran for over 60 years (from birth), and an LCMS member for 15 years, and I have never witnessed speaking in tongues ( though I have witnessed Eucharistic adoration at every Liturgy of the Sacrament). Now, my 15 years experience could be considered anecdotal, but it is far less anecdotal than your “short time”. Regardless, instead of speculating using anecdotals, here is what the Synod teaches:
lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=424

While growing up, I was taught that speaking in tongues meant nothing if people who could translate the words were not in attendance. Without understanding, it is babble.
Others may have differing experiences. There may even be Catholic Charismatics on the board. But the LCMS is not overrun by some hyper-charismatic movement.

Jon

 

[chesterlab]

I don’t care what the Africans form of worship is. They come out of a different culture and are an anomaly. The Pentecostal/hyper Charismatic Movement came out of the two great awakenings, jonathon Edwards and George Whitfield and is an American phenomenon. The tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter,(latter rain movement-Toronto laughter) dancing in the sanctuary, and any other manifestations I’ve witnessed in such churches (my sibling attends a hyper charismatic, dominunist church) engage in all of these practices and it only took me one time at their service to discern that these churches may be spirit filled but I have my suspicions as to what that spirit is. I do not believe they are of the lord. And if you want an eye opener, plug the name “Todd Bently” into the YouTube search box and you will get an eye opener as to what passes for “Christian” today. This guy is a convicted fell on who holds these horrendous revivals every night and deceives many. Also, research the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement. Many Catholics are ignorant of the Toronto blessing/latter rain movements that excist in the evangelical movement. Some of it is seeping into the Vatican II church. This is heretical and their lord and SAvior, is money. some groups, such as TD Jackes deny the existence of the holy trinity . Any of you with a mustard seed of faith should be disturbed by that.

 

[GKC]

That is not true. The Episcopal church has Apostolic succession. What sacrament is the Episcopal church missing?

According to the RCC, that one which constitutes Apostolic succession: Holy orders. And hence any sacrament requiring valid orders to confect.

Reference would be Apostolicae Curae/ Leo XIII/ 1896.

 

[Elizium23]

Elizium,here is an article on the western and eastern church by the Catholic World Report. Pope JP II was the first one to say that the eastern church is the “other lung of the church.” I am providing the link here. catholicworldreport.com/Item/1539/both_lungs.aspx

And here is an article from Catholic On line, which quotes Pope Francis referring to the “two lungs” of the church. catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=50211

I saw him in a live interview commenting on the eastern church being the other lung, but I can’t find that at the moment. The two articles above should provide you with all the proof you need.

Yes, those are very interesting articles, but they are short on direct quotes of the Holy Father Francis, and certainly don’t ascribe to him a requote of the “two lungs” idiom, much less referring not to Eastern Catholicism. This is all an invention of the reporter writing the article.

 

[chesterlab]

As I said earlier, I heard the holy father make this comment in his speech.

You know folks, you all tend to be a tad condescending. I expected that from the Protestants when I debated them when I defended my faith, but I’m disappointed that several of you engage in the same tactics and we are all brothers and sisters in the catholic faith. You need only read a little more, research these issues and you will find that what I am putting forth is true. I’m not going to argue with you all. I already had not only all of my evangelical friends tell me I was going to hell for converting, and worse lost all of their friendship, but you folks seem to engage in similar behavior. I want to discuss subjects with my catholic peers with dignity. I’m not looking for “gotcha” moments and I’m not trying to prove a wrong just to pridefully proving myself right.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

According to the RCC, that one which constitutes Apostolic succession: Holy orders. And hence any sacrament requiring valid orders to confect.

Reference would be Apostolicae Curae/ Leo XIII/ 1896.

The Episcopal Church has Apostolic succession. As far as I can see, the TEC also has Holy orders.