Protestant Communion?

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I am referring modern American Bereans who claim they are descendents in their diligence of studying and reflecting on Scripture.

Likewise, I would edit here, totally agree with Pablobe…the Church worked on its universal communion. And those Bereans were not studying from the point of Sola Scriptura. Actuallyl no one within Judaism followed Sola Scriptura, it was not dictated in the Old Testament but one was to follow legitimate prophets and patriarchs chosen by God. There was one small Jewish sect that was Sola Scriptura…cannot remember the name in my aging process…their sect …it began with a ‘k’…will have to look it up.
 
In_His_Grace said:
The short answer, Paul was an apostle, an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ, called and appointed by God to receive divine revelation. His “new teachings” were grounded on the fulfillment of Old Testament revelation.
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So the Scriptures were not a complete collection of the revelation of God. They accepted Paul’s preaching as the word of God, and used the OT as reference to support his new teaching, which was not in Scripture.
 
Thorolfr said:
Somehow, I have a hard time believing that Jesus would have cared about all this. He doesn’t say, “This is my body, but only if done by a valid minister with apostolic succession and with valid intent and using valid form.” Every time I read these kinds of conversations, it seems to be about why church X has valid this and valid that and therefore really has Jesus whereas church Y doesn’t have Jesus (even if they think they do) because they don’t have valid ministers and valid forms, etc. It’s an argument about who’s better than whom, who’s in and who’s out. 🤷
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Why is that hard to believe?

When Paul said the following,

who inspired him to teach this?

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

The Catholic Church has been here from the beginning #34 teaching the truth.

We know the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to teach the truth. How would Paul know what Jesus taught, when prior to his conversion, he not only didn’t follow Jesus he persecuted Jesus. Jesus even called him on that. Acts 9:4

Paul was inspired by the HS. And where did the HS get the teachings from that He inspired Paul and the other apostles to teach? The HS got it from Jesus John 16:12-15

Therefore, believe that Jesus does care deeply about this subject. If you didn’t believe it before believe it NOW.

Here is something else to believe.

One who divides from the Church Jesus established and won’t follow direction, is condemned. Here’s where ya find that in scripture?

Romans 16:17-20 [17] Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας* dichostasia* ]and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. [18] For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. [19] For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. [20] And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily

Galatians 5:19-21 [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, [20] Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας* dichostasia* ] sects, [21] Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

διχοστασίας* dichostasia** = *division / dissension / factions /sedition, depending on one’s translation., that same Greek word is used in both Rom 16:17…. And Gal 5:19-20. The consequences for one who dies in that sin, they will not inherit heaven. [Gal 5:21] as in they go to hell. Note there is no expiration date to that warning.

And that warning ultimately came from guess who? Jesus John 16:12-15
 
As you, I’m a convert, but I came from a traditional Pentecostal and later a non-denominational charismatic tradition. (I apologize to CA if this is a bit off-topic but I couldn’t let these comments slip by.)

QUOTE=chesterlab;13199998]I don’t care what the Africans form of worship is. They come out of a different culture and are an anomaly. .

Latest estimates state there are 176 million African Catholics and the African church is one of the fastest growing Catholic churches in the world (not just by birth but conversions). They use the music relevant to their culture. Generally we as Western Catholics don’t. They’re growing & we’re not. Maybe we’re the anomaly.

QUOTE=chesterlab;13199998] The Pentecostal/hyper Charismatic Movement came out of the two great awakenings, jonathon Edwards and George Whitfield and is an American phenomenon. The tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter,(latter rain movement-Toronto laughter) dancing in the sanctuary, and any other manifestations…

Pentecostals (generalizing) base a large part of their tradition from the events that happened on…PENTECOST. An interesting read is “2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity”, by Hyatt (non-Catholic). He historically documents many of the manifestations that you claim may be NOT the Holy Spirit, occurring in the Catholic Church, with many before the reformation.

QUOTE=chesterlab;13199998]And if you want an eye opener, plug the name “Todd Bently” into the YouTube search box and you will get an eye opener as to what passes for “Christian” today. This guy is a convicted fell on who holds these horrendous revivals every night and deceives many.

Todd Bentley in his previous life was a convicted felon who converted to Christianity. I guess his tattoos are pretty “un-Christian”. Although he’s not Catholic, I have trouble finding his teachings (the limited ones I’ve heard) contrary to Holy Scripture.

QUOTE=chesterlab;13199998]Many Catholics are ignorant of the Toronto blessing

John Arnott, a leader of the Toronto Blessing, along with some other Protestants met with the Holy Father a year ago June, and had an extended discussion on reaching the world for Christ. (revivalmag.com/article/meeting-pope-francis). Also His Eminence Cardinal Thomas Collins of Toronto was a speaker at Arnott’s Revival Leadership Conterence in January. Hmm…Shouldn’t these men know about this “heresy”?

I love my Catholic faith but I value my tradition that is rooted in truth as well. God’s graces are numerous enough to extend to our separated brothers. I’m very careful to judge something not of the Lord, without prayer and knowledge.

Blessings.
 
zz912 said:
So the Scriptures were not a complete collection of the revelation of God. They accepted Paul’s preaching as the word of God, and used the OT as reference to support his new teaching, which was not in Scripture.
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That sounds accurate. Direct (special) revelation of God, Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, came to a close with the writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of the book of Revelation by John. Direct (special) revelation ceased with the death of the apostles in the 1’st century.
 
KathleenGee said:
I am referring modern American Bereans who claim they are descendents in their diligence of studying and reflecting on Scripture.

Likewise, I would edit here, totally agree with Pablobe…the Church worked on its universal communion. And those Bereans were not studying from the point of Sola Scriptura. Actuallyl no one within Judaism followed Sola Scriptura, it was not dictated in the Old Testament but one was to follow legitimate prophets and patriarchs chosen by God. There was one small Jewish sect that was Sola Scriptura…cannot remember the name in my aging process…their sect …it began with a ‘k’…will have to look it up.
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Ok KathleenGee, just so we understand each other. Not all Protestants have “attitudes” towards Catholics.
 
pablope said:
Sorry about that…these should work better:

jimmyakin.com/2012/09/sola-scriptura-the-bereans.html

catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Bereans-and-Sola-Scriptura.pdf
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I read the articles you posted. This doesn’t negate the fact that the Berean Jews “examined the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so”. The vast majority of Jews rejected Paul’s teaching, the Gospel preached, and were hostile and jealous toward the newly founded Christianity. Is it possible that the motives and attitudes (different place, politics etc.) of the Berean vs. the Thessalonian Jews were what made the difference? That bottom line is the fact that it is working of the Holy Spirit that draws people to a saving faith thus the Bereans were open to Gospel message and “examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so” is part of this process utilized by the Spirit, intellectual accent to saving faith.

From the footnotes of one of the articles you posted …

10 F. F. Bruce writes, “For, with commendable open-mindedness, they brought the claims made by Paul to the touchstone of Holy Writ instead of giving way to jealousy”
 
pablope said:
Yes…and Paul had apostolic succession:

Before he went on his first missionary journey:
at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
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I guess I missed it, where do you see the Catholic Church’s concept of apostolic succession in this passage?
 
St. Paul went to St. Peter after his conversion to spend 15 days with him. I imagine they were very intense…may be with little sleep. St. Paul went to Peter and the apostles to insure that his encounter was correct because he knew they were chosen by the Lord to be his apostles.

Afterwards, Paul and Barnabas were now ready to go out to preach to the Gentiles.
 
Anyone attracted to Mormonism has a certain mindset and constitution to be attracted to it…and not reason and academically oriented…cannot go back to church history and study.

There are Mormons right now in the Vatican Library doing research on our Church’s historical documents that provide the underlying and evolving conditions in which the Church was in.

I just hope there isn’t plagarizing going on…and coming back to Utah and now convinced again Joseph Smith was correct…just like what happened in May 2008 in the Deseret News…that it was ‘miraculous’ that the Orthodox ‘Theosis’ was proving Joseph Smith right on they becoming gods. Or using CCC460 to prove the Church believes in we becoming gods and ignoring the build up of prior doctrines and ignoring the footnotes to this particular doctrine.
 
When a Catholic priest takes a little piece of unleavened bread and repeats the words that Jesus spoke at the Last Supper, “This is my body”, and when he takes a small of amount of wine in a chalice and says, “This is my blood”, the bread is no longer bread and the wine is no longer wine. At every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we participate in a marvellous miracle,

The Holy Eucharist is the the Body and Blood, together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jesus said

I am the way the truth and the life

God Bless
 
KathleenGee said:
St. Paul went to St. Peter after his conversion to spend 15 days with him. I imagine they were very intense…may be with little sleep. St. Paul went to Peter and the apostles to insure that his encounter was correct because he knew they were chosen by the Lord to be his apostles.

Afterwards, Paul and Barnabas were now ready to go out to preach to the Gentiles.
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You may want to reconsider your time frame, Paul’s time preaching the Gospel prior to his first meeting with Peter and the purpose purpose of Paul and Peters encounter per Galatians 1:11-24 or am I mistaken?
 
SalusaSecondus said:
That’s not even true according to Catholic teaching. Catholic teachings is that the EOs and OOs also have valid Eucharists.
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Does it really matter in the end? Surely,our selfless,thoughtful actions towards people during our life on earth is what God is most pleased to observe in us not our faith denomination and rituals?
 
porthos11 said:
Even if we as Catholics must affirm that there is no Real Presence within the Protestant communities, we cannot go so far as to say that their Communion is devoid of grace.

Given that our Protestant brethren here have affirmed their belief in Christ’s presence in their Eucharistic celebration despite our disagreement tells us that they have accepted the word of Christ at face value, even though we differ in the philosophical technicalities, if you can call them that.

God can and does use their Eucharistic beliefs and services for much good, including Christian fellowship with each other, a desire to to good and to recall the Lord’s salvific deeds. And in many cases, that grace has led both individual Protestants and entire communities/parishes into the Catholic Church.

So even if we must affirm that the Protestant Eucharist is invalid for doctrinal reasons, it is not for us to declare it devoid of grace. We need to realize that this is important for them too and must address it respectfully.
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Nyika:
Absolutely agree! Amen to that
 
In_His_Grace said:
I read the articles you posted. This doesn’t negate the fact that the Berean Jews “examined the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so”. The vast majority of Jews rejected Paul’s teaching, the Gospel preached, and were hostile and jealous toward the newly founded Christianity. Is it possible that the motives and attitudes (different place, politics etc.) of the Berean vs. the Thessalonian Jews were what made the difference? That bottom line is the fact that it is working of the Holy Spirit that draws people to a saving faith thus the Bereans were open to Gospel message and “examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so” is part of this process utilized by the Spirit, intellectual accent to saving faith.

From the footnotes of one of the articles you posted …

10 F. F. Bruce writes, “For, with commendable open-mindedness, they brought the claims made by Paul to the touchstone of Holy Writ instead of giving way to jealousy”
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Yes, but they did not interpret it independently out side of what Paul taught them.

As the article by Akin says…*The idea is that we should imitate the Berean Jews and take a skeptical attitude of theological ideas we are presented with. Instead of just accepting them, we should search the Scriptures daily to see if what we are being told is true or not. If it’s not, then we should not accept it.

If that’s what the passage means—if it is commending the Bereans for their skeptical attitude and refusal to believe a teaching unless it can be found in Scripture—then this would be good evidence for sola scriptura.

But that’s not what it means, and it’s easy to show that…Instead, the contrast is between the open-minded Bereans, who were willing and eager to examine the Scriptures and see if what Paul was saying was true, versus the hostile Thessalonians, who started a riot and got Paul in trouble with the authorities, even though he had proved from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.*
 
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