Protestant Communion?

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steve_b said:
As I responded here #489 there is more to that quote
for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present(76).

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Well, in that response, you make an unwarranted assumption - that the Orthodox are included in both in “the non-Catholic Churches” and the “Christian communities.” Why do you assume that?

To assume that, you would either have to deny that the Orthodox churches possess apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, or deny that “the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present in every valid celebration of the Eucharist.”

If you don’t want to do either, please explain how the CATHOLIC Church is both truly present and absent “in every valid celebration of the Eucharist.”
 
KjetilK said:
Well, in that response, you make an unwarranted assumption - that the Orthodox are included in both in “the non-Catholic Churches” and the “Christian communities.” Why do you assume that?

To assume that, you would either have to deny that the Orthodox churches possess apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, or deny that “the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present in every valid celebration of the Eucharist.”

If you don’t want to do either, please explain how the CATHOLIC Church is both truly present and absent “in every valid celebration of the Eucharist.”
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Finding elements of the Catholic Church in non Catholic Churches or other communities, doesn’t mean they are the Catholic Church.

As then Card Ratzinger explained

they don’t profess the Catholic faith in its entirety and have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter"(72)

from Communionis Notio , which you referred to,
  1. “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honoured by the name of Christian, but who do not however profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter”(72). Among the non-Catholic Churches and Christian communities, there are indeed to be found many elements of the Church of Christ, which allow us, amid joy and hope, to acknowledge the existence of a certain communion, albeit imperfect(73).
This communion exists especially with the Eastern orthodox Churches, which, though separated from the See of Peter, remain united to the Catholic Church by means of very close bonds, such as the apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, and therefore merit the title of particular Churches(74). Indeed, “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”(75), for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present(76)."

Then Cardinal Ratzinger, continued

“Since, however, communion with the universal Church, represented by Peter’s Successor, is not an external complement to the particular Church, but one of its internal constituents, the situation of those venerable Christian communities also means that their existence as particular Churches is wounded. The wound is even deeper in those ecclesial communities which have not retained the apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist. This in turn also injures the Catholic Church, called by the Lord to become for all “one flock” with “one shepherd”(77), in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of its universality in history. 18. This situation seriously calls for ecumenical commitment on the part of everyone, with a view to achieving full communion in the unity of the Church; that unity “which Christ bestowed on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time”(78)”…

I think you will agree, this document written by then Card Ratzinger, in 1992, is putting great effort at ecumenical outreach.

when he said “subsists” remember I gave this response #488
 
Interesting and great to know. I’ve never known an Orthodox friend(s) to refer themselves as Catholic. Similarly, none of my Lutheran relatives ever refer to themselves as Catholic, although I must admit, I’ve been much closer to Lutheran’s in my life.
 
Porknpie said:
Interesting and great to know. I’ve never known an Orthodox friend(s) to refer themselves as Catholic. Similarly, none of my Lutheran relatives ever refer to themselves as Catholic, although I must admit, I’ve been much closer to Lutheran’s in my life.
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Didn’t Lutherans originally call themselves Evangelical Catholics? “Lutheran” was a name given by Roman Catholics intended as a pejorative. It stuck.
 
theropod said:
Didn’t Lutherans originally call themselves Evangelical Catholics? "Lutheran" was a name given by Roman Catholics intended as a pejorative. It stuck.
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As I understood it, Luther preferred evangelical to Lutheran. Either way, he was no longer Catholic nor were his followers.
 
theropod said:
Didn’t Lutherans originally call themselves Evangelical Catholics? “Lutheran” was a name given by Roman Catholics intended as a pejorative. It stuck.
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As I understood it, Luther preferred evangelical to Lutheran. Either way, Luther was no longer Catholic nor were his followers, they were Protestant.

How is naming an organization after its founder a pejorative?
 
theropod said:
Because it implies that the organization’s followers are following the man, and not Christ.
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They ARE following Luther. He started their beliefs. If they were following Christ they wouldn’t have left Him, by leaving the only Church he established on Peter.
 
steve_b said:
They ARE following Luther. If they were following Christ they wouldn’t have left Him, by leaving the only Church he established on Peter.
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We are following Christ , the church wasn’t founded on Peter, and we haven’t left our Savior.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
We are following Christ , the church wasn’t founded on Peter, and we haven’t left our Savior.
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Luther left the Church of Rome. And was ultimately excommunicated as a heretic. The same Church of Rome Paul wrote to. (book of Romans) that pope Francis is over today, 267th successor to St Peter.

This warning is as valid for Luther in his day as it was for those dividing from the Church of Rome in Paul’s day, and it has no expiration date to it looking into the future.

Remember this explanation. It’s where Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation, comes from. 846

This Greek word dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition / sects, is used in the following 2 selections.

(all emphasis mine)

Romans 16:17-20 (links are operational)
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily."

here’s the consequence for that sin to the sinner who does divide from the Church

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God."

IOW, they who do such things and die in that sin of division from the Church, go to hell

As you can see, those are not my warnings, not my judgement, but it’s from Jesus speaking through the Holy Spirit to Paul
John 16:12-15

http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm

http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm
 
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