Protestant Communion

[JohnWilliams]

You made this statement in your post.

You’ve compounded your error through non-admission of it and by rewriting what I wrote again. I did not indicate as you implied: “I don’t see how thinking of fishing before going up to communion…”
The verses that I quoted above and my post detail my point.

 

[AlegreFe]

You’ve compounded your error through non-admission of it and by rewriting what I wrote again.
The verses that I quoted above detail my point.

I don’t understand. Please explain. How have I compounded my “error?”

 

[JohnWilliams]

I don’t understand. Please explain. How have I compounded my “error?”

I embellished the post since you quoted. You wrote of what I wrote - incorrectly - a second time.
This even after quoting it again.

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

Agreed

I don’t disagree with you here about being both when you put it in this manner.

It appears you and I agree by reading your reply.

Honestly I would say to your “difference” is this:

What you think about and how much introspection you do when approaching the table is highly personal and individual. I can’t say I ever though of fishing either .

My thoughts have ranged from “Ok, I’ve heard this before” to every point imaginable connected with the Eucharist and back again. The first would be my humanity not yet being in the right state to take communion while the latter is led as the Spirit dictates. For my own personal understanding, I accepted and got off the “real presence” station a long time ago. I’ve moved on to more encompassing and meaningful reflections because I accept and understand the substance. To me, it almost sounds like you still feel the need to argue (or affirm in reflection) something that is as universal to communion as the holy Trinity is. I hope that is a clear misunderstanding on my part.

 

[AlegreFe]

I embellished the post since you quoted. You wrote of what I wrote - incorrectly - a second time.
This even after quoting it again.

Okay, I will re-read your previous posts but not right now. :yawn: I can’t believe I haven’t gone to bed yet since last night. I’ve been up all night. So I better get to sleep. I just got a PM so I will read that first then go to bed. I will read this later tonight.

Peace and God bless.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Okay, I will re-read your previous posts but not right now. :yawn: I can’t believe I haven’t gone to bed yet since last night. I’ve been up all night. So I better get to sleep. I just got a PM so I will read that first then go to bed. I will read this later tonight.

Peace and God bless.

May God bless, and have a good rest, Bro.

 

[MariaG]

Hello brothers and sisters in the Lord!

As children of God we are to obey what He says. Not legalism folks, but a privelage thru mercy and grace given to us at the cross have we been given this ability! Mercy and grace provides repentance and forgiveness. It is “not” for us to do whatever we chooose to do. Liberty is the freedom to choose and follow Christ! Liberty In Christ that is.

That is beautifully expressed.

I especially like the part I underlined.

I may have to use this in the future on these forums

God Bless,
Maria

 

[dessert]

Indeed. Few things are more deadly serious in Scripture.
1Cr 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Clearly we each must understand the filthy sinful messes that we are, and temper our approach to communion accordingly. This is something that no Priest or Pastor can do for us.
Healing is a very physical, and seeable or recognizable miracle, performed by Christians of all stripes. This would not seem to help with the literal (but non-physical and unseeable) blood and body argument.

Healed or forgiven one in the same by the power of the sacrament of reconciliation. Return

 

[MariaG]

Indeed. Few things are more deadly serious in Scripture.
1Cr 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Clearly we each must understand the filthy sinful messes that we are, and temper our approach to communion accordingly. This is something that no Priest or Pastor can do for us.

Healing is a very physical, and seeable or recognizable miracle, performed by Christians of all stripes. This would not seem to help with the literal (but non-physical and unseeable) blood and body argument.

I would beg to differ on some point here. If a miracle is indeed performed such as a cancer healing or other physical healing, we would be able to see a person who is healed, but we will not be able to actually see the healing that happened. We would not be able to see the actual cure that occurred, only the outcome of the healed person. Just the same way that we are not able to see the actual change that happens at every Holy Catholic Mass when the Priest, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, changes the substance of the bread & wine into the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Healed or forgiven one in the same by the power of the sacrament of reconciliation.

Just as there are at times, miracles of healing that we can “see”, there have also been Eucharistic miracles in which the Host has turned into real flesh and blood. Eucharistic Miracles is a site that has these miracles. Inspiring reading:thumbsup:

Bu the fact is we don’t always have to “see” things to know a miracle has occurred. In fact, Christ said blessed is he who believes without seeing.

God bless,
Maria

 

[dessert]

Just as there are at times, miracles of healing that we can “see”, there have also been Eucharistic miracles in which the Host has turned into real flesh and blood. Eucharistic Miracles is a site that has these miracles. Inspiring reading:thumbsup:

Bu the fact is we don’t always have to “see” things to know a miracle has occurred. In fact, Christ said blessed is he who believes without seeing.

God bless,
Maria

I read your site and it is fascinating. I believe every word because I had a similar experience about 25 years ago. My son who was about 4 ran into a door head on. He was always hiper after sitting in church service for an hour. One of the men came right over immediately and started to pray for him with his eyes closed praying in the name of Jesus. I had my eyes
open so I saw what was happening and I was also praying. It was like time lapse warp or whatever you want to call it. A large lump formed on my son’s forehead and then it changed colors and then started to decrease and then changed colors agin till it became a pale yellow or bruise and the lump was completely gone and then was just a light yellow. It was like it had healed over a peroid of days in seconds. I just stepped back and said wow! I learned right then that anything is possible with God. The man had not seen any of this and neither anyone else so it was like my private miracle so I don’t care if no one else believes I know I do. Return

 

[MariaG]

I read your site and it is fascinating. I believe every word because I had a similar experience about 25 years ago. My son who was about 4 ran into a door head on. He was always hiper after sitting in church service for an hour. One of the men came right over immediately and started to pray for him with his eyes closed praying in the name of Jesus. I had my eyes
open so I saw what was happening and I was also praying. It was like time lapse warp or whatever you want to call it. A large lump formed on my son’s forehead and then it changed colors and then started to decrease and then changed colors agin till it became a pale yellow or bruise and the lump was completely gone and then was just a light yellow. It was like it had healed over a peroid of days in seconds. I just stepped back and said wow! I learned right then that anything is possible with God. The man had not seen any of this and neither anyone else so it was like my private miracle so I don’t care if no one else believes I know I do. Return

Very cool I know you must feel blessed to have “seen” this miracle.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

Very cool I know you must feel blessed to have “seen” this miracle.

God Bless,
Maria

Since we’re talking miracles, I thought I would share an ancedotal story from my childhood.

From birth, I was read stories from the Bible. When I was 3 years old, my world revolved around them and Captain Kangaroo. I would get up every morning and watch the show from what I called “2 tv” (because the tv I liked was the 2nd tv).

One night, 2tv burned up. The tube went out (old b&w) and smoke filled up the entire house. The next morning, I still went to my parents bedroom and wanted to watch Captain Kangaroo on “2tv”. My mom explained to me its broken and she was going to throw it away. She plugged it in, turned it on and showed me its truly broken.

Somewhere in my very VERY limited knowledge, I remembered stories about Jesus healing people. Not knowing any better, I asked my mom if we could pray for the TV. My mom humored me (not wanting to hurt my feelings) and told me to go ahead. I remember putting my hand on it and praying the most simple prayer. Dear, Jesus…Please heal 2tv, Amen.

Wouldnt you know it, but the TV instantly came on (no warmup) and was just fine! To me, I only thought I can go back to my routine and watch Captain Kangaroo. My mom got a little bit over-exicted as any adult probably would. Two months later, friends of my parents needed a TV and couldnt afford one. My mom asked me if it was ok to give it to them. I didn’t mind too much.

Would you call that a miracle? Well, I don’t quite know what you would call it. I’d like to think it taught me something about faith if nothing else.

 

[AlegreFe]

You’ve compounded your error through non-admission of it and by rewriting what I wrote again. I did not indicate as you implied: “I don’t see how thinking of fishing before going up to communion…”
The verses that I quoted above and my post detail my point.

So you are saying that if you receive Jesus in Holy Communion while at the same time you are thinking of fishing, you are taking Jesus unworthily.

I would not say that you are committing a sacrilage, nor is it a mortal sin. The only way that you can receive Jesus unworthily is to receive Him while in a state of mortal sin.

That is why we have the Sacrament of Confession. Now if it makes you feel any better you can go tell the priest next time you go to confession that you think you received Jesus unworthily because you were thinking about going fishing when you received Him. I’m not sure what the priest will say. I don’t think he will say that you’ve committed a mortal sin. But with that said along with all the other sins, be they mortal or venial, you will be absolved of all your sins, including you thinking of fishing while receiving Jesus if you think that was a mortal sin.

 

[AlegreFe]

btw John, I never said that that’s what you said. I’m talking about our previous posts about the “fishing” thing. If you notice in my previous post, I actually put your quote right in my post indicating that that’s what you said. When I said "I don’t see how thinking of fishing before going up to communion…" I was not saying that that’s what you said. That is what I was saying. I hope that wasn’t too confusing.

---

Do you believe that you are guided by the Holy Ghost, when it comes to Faith & Morals?

Sure. But aren’t we all as far as the fact that we know deep down in our heart & soul what is wrong and what is right? That is our soul that God gave to all of us.

But I won’t be able to start my own church and start teaching my own doctrine. I don’t have that kind of guarentee of the Holy Spirit the way that Peter does. Which, btw, he handed down to all of his successors. Our current Vicor is Pope Benedict XVI.

I’m not saying that I don’t trust the Holy Spirit to guide me. I just know that the Holy Spirit will not be guiding me to open my own church and start teaching my own doctrine. That would be arrogant of me to do that, not to mention disrespectful to God, to our Pope, to Jesus Christ and to Mary.

Jesus told Peter directly that he was Rock and that upon that Rock (Peter) He will build His Church. He told Peter that only God the Father in Heaven could have revealed who Jesus is to Peter. He did not address the other Apostles in this manner, only Peter.

I put links in some of the verse numbers here so that you can read the footnotes for each of those.
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea
Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people
say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others
Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you,
Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has
not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my church, and the gates of the
netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven.”

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

Here is where Jesus has Peter make up for his denying Him (Jesus) before. This is where Jesus gives Peter the power to be supreme shepherd of the flock, that is all of us. Peter and Jesus were by themselves here. None of the other Apostles were there.
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to
Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me
more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you
know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16 He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of
John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you
know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John,
do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said
to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to
him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love
you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.
18 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger,
you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but
when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and
someone else will dress you and lead you where you do
not want to go.”
19 He said this signifying by what kind of death he would
glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him,
“Follow me.” John 21:15-19

Footnotes from NAB
[15-23] This section constitutes Peter’s rehabilitation
and emphasizes his role in the church.

[15-17] In these three verses there is a remarkable
variety of synonyms: two different Greek verbs for love
(see the note on John 15:13); two verbs for feed/tend;
two nouns for sheep; two verbs for know. But apparently
there is no difference of meaning. The threefold confession
of Peter is meant to counteract his earlier threefold denial
(John 18:17, 25, 27). The First Vatican Council cited these
verses in defining that Jesus after his resurrection gave
Peter the jurisdiction of supreme shepherd and ruler
over the whole flock.

[15] More than these: probably “more than these disciples
do” rather than “more than you love them” or “more than you
love these things [fishing, etc.].”

 

[JohnWilliams]

btw John, I never said that that’s what you said. I’m talking about our previous posts about the “fishing” thing. If you notice in my previous post, I actually put your quote right in my post indicating that that’s what you said. When I said "I don’t see how thinking of fishing before going up to communion…" I was not saying that that’s what you said. That is what I was saying. I hope that wasn’t too confusing.

Not confusing. You quote me and then go wander off on your own unrelated tangent. If you review the related posts you will probably see why I am not inclined to continue to spend my time posting with you.

---

Sure. But aren’t we all as far as the fact that we know deep down in our heart & soul what is wrong and what is right? That is our soul that God gave to all of us.

Generally an atheist knows what is right and wrong. This is only a little part of being guided by the Holy Spirit. When we repent and try as best as we can to live our lives in Jesus and with Jesus as our model. When we recognize that our bodies are the temple of God and our actions and appearance should demonstrate that to others. When we love not our lives unto death, and the things of this world become irrelevant. When we are in constant relationship. That’s what being guided by the Holy Spirit is to me.

But I won’t be able to start my own church and start teaching my own doctrine. I don’t have that kind of guarentee of the Holy Spirit the way that Peter does. Which, btw, he handed down to all of his successors. Our current Vicor is Pope Benedict XVI.

Considering several Popes, Bishops, and the Catholic Church during the reformation, I would be reluctant to make a claim of an unbroken chain of succession. Sometimes I judge things in part by the fruit.

I’m not saying that I don’t trust the Holy Spirit to guide me. I just know that the Holy Spirit will not be guiding me to open my own church and start teaching my own doctrine. That would be arrogant of me to do that,

Yes it would. Starting a Church is something that a person should be qualified and called to do, not decide to do.

not to mention disrespectful to God, to our Pope, to Jesus Christ and to Mary.

Jesus told Peter directly that he was Rock and that upon that Rock (Peter) He will build His Church. He told Peter that only God the Father in Heaven could have revealed who Jesus is to Peter. He did not address the other Apostles in this manner, only Peter.

I put links in some of the verse numbers here so that you can read the footnotes for each of those.
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea
Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people
say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others
Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you,
Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has
not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my church, and the gates of the
netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven.”

Cont…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1700841&postcount=272

 

[JohnWilliams]

So you are saying that if you receive Jesus in Holy Communion while at the same time you are thinking of fishing, you are taking Jesus unworthily.

I would not say that you are committing a sacrilage, nor is it a mortal sin. The only way that you can receive Jesus unworthily is to receive Him while in a state of mortal sin.

Categorizing sin is a doctrinal concept that we will not be able to find common ground on. In scripture sometimes shopping lists of sins are lumped together. I don’t believe God makes a distinction. Sin is sin. Nor is my salvation and relationship with Jesus in jeopardy. It hurts me to the bone when I sin and I can feel it pull me away from that relationship. Thus I sin less and less as that relationship continues.

That is why we have the Sacrament of Confession. Now if it makes you feel any better you can go tell the priest next time you go to confession that you think you received Jesus unworthily because you were thinking about going fishing when you received Him. I’m not sure what the priest will say. I don’t think he will say that you’ve committed a mortal sin. But with that said along with all the other sins, be they mortal or venial, you will be absolved of all your sins, including you thinking of fishing while receiving Jesus if you think that was a mortal sin.

Can you pray directly to Jesus and ask Him to forgive you of your sins and get absolution?

 

[RCCDefender]

Considering several Popes, Bishops, and the Catholic Church during the reformation, I would be reluctant to make a claim of an unbroken chain of succession.

Could you expand on this??

Sin is sin. Nor is my salvation and relationship with Jesus in jeopardy.

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Can you pray directly to Jesus and ask Him to forgive you of your sins and get absolution?

Yes, this is exactly what happens in the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe holy communion to be the new passover meal. as the jewish eat the lamb to commemorate the passover we eat the lords supper to commemorate the moment that God’s judgement passes over all of us for eternity.

Yes, this is also my understanding of it, as well.

I don’t know, but do Jewish still eat this meal?

Yes.

is it considered a rememberence?

Yes, but not just a “hey, do you remember when …” kind of a remembrance, but rather, they themselves enter into the Exodus in a spiritual manner. They themselves become “rescued from slavery in Egypt” not in a literal way, but it’s also not completely symbolic, either.

All Jews are required to celebrate the Passover - through the Passover meal, they claim their heritage of freedom in God’s Law, which is what they believe it really means to be Jewish, in a very real, very profound way.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Could you expand on this??

I really needed to? Persecution of the Reformers.

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

I believe when God makes reference to deadly sin He means it.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:16 ean <1437> {IF} tiV <5100> {ANYONE} idh <1492> (5632) {SHOULD SEE} ton <3588> adelfon <80> autou <846> {HIS BROTHER} amartanonta <264> (5723) {SINNING} amartian <266> {A SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH,} aithsei <154> (5692) {HE SHALL ASK,} kai <2532> {AND} dwsei <1325> (5692) {HE SHALL GIVE} autw <846> {HIM} zwhn <2222> {LIFE} toiV <3588> {FOR THOSE THAT} amartanousin <264> (5723) {SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH.} estin <2076> (5748) {THERE IS} amartia <266> {A SIN} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH;} ou <3756> {NOT} peri <4012> {CONCERNING} ekeinhV <1565> {THAT} legw <3004> (5719) {DO I SAY} ina <2443> {THAT} erwthsh <2065> (5661) {HE SHOULD BESEECH.}

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar003.html#28

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Mark 3:29 oV <3739> d <1161> an <302> {BUT WHOSOEVER} blasfhmhsh <987> (5661) {SHALL BLASPHEME} eiV <1519> {AGAINST} to <3588> {THE} pneuma <4151> {SPIRIT} to <3588> {THE} agion <40> ouk <3756> {HOLY,} ecei <2192> (5719) {HAS NOT} afesin <859> {FORGIVENESS} eiV <1519> ton <3588> {TO} aiwna <165> {ETERNITY,} all <235> {BUT} enocoV <1777> {LIABLE TO} estin <2076> (5748) {IS} aiwniou <166> {ETERNAL} krisewV <2920> {JUDGMENT;}

olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm