Protestant Communion

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I don’t have time to go through the entire thread…but I am Protestant (Reformed), and was pretty disgusted by both the prepackaged deals and by some of the assumptions made. Having been formerly a baptist, I understand what is being said. Being Reformed though, I would like to make it clear that many of us do take communion VERY seriously and are even pushing for the use of actual wine.
 
I don’t have time to go through the entire thread…but I am Protestant (Reformed), and was pretty disgusted by both the prepackaged deals and by some of the assumptions made. Having been formerly a baptist, I understand what is being said. Being Reformed though, I would like to make it clear that many of us do take communion VERY seriously and are even pushing for the use of actual wine.
:confused:

Is not that a blatant admission you have been doing it wrong all this time and are still not getting it right, but because you are “pushing” for the use of actual wine you are getting back on track now?

Sounds serious to me.:confused:
 
:confused:

Is not that a blatant admission you have been doing it wrong all this time and are still not getting it right, but because you are “pushing” for the use of actual wine you are getting back on track now?

Sounds serious to me.:confused:
By the same respect, we believe the Catholics are doing it “wrong” (in their thinking) as well. We know many Catholics that don’t agree with the Churches stands on certain issues, yet they stay and sometimes attempt at improvements. Same with us Protestants…it’s not a reason to leave, it’s a reason to improve.
 
By the same respect, we believe the Catholics are doing it “wrong” (in their thinking) as well. We know many Catholics that don’t agree with the Churches stands on certain issues, yet they stay and sometimes attempt at improvements. Same with us Protestants…it’s not a reason to leave, it’s a reason to improve.
I cant stop laughing!!! Thanks for funniest thing I have ever heard before!

If you only re-read this again you will see it I think…:rolleyes:
 
I cant stop laughing!!! Thanks for funniest thing I have ever heard before!

If you only re-read this again you will see it I think…:rolleyes:
I see exactly what you are thinking!! And yes it is laughable.

Or perhaps extremely sad!
 
😊

We do see ourselves as pretty close to catholicism in some respects. However, we disagree on others obviously. There is a respect for catholics that I didn’t have as a baptist. Calvin and Luther were both Catholics initially. And St Augustine is highly respected amoungst calvinists as he held to some of the same views we do.
 
Yes - He was telling them that His body and blood is spiritual food - a Sacrament - not physical food
You are correct but also wrong. Our Holy Communion is physical food because Jesus Christ said it Himself. But you are correct in the sense that His Flesh is also spiritual because it is only by the Holy Spirit that Transubstantiation is possible.

53 … "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh
of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life
in you,
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal
life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53-56

Since we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eurcharist we are actually eating the flesh & blood of Jesus Christ. However, it is only by the Holy Spirit that this could be possible. That should explain John 6:66. The disciples who walked away knew what Jesus was talking about. He was actually talking about eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood; just not in the way they thought. And for that reason, Jesus did not stop them to tell them that it was merely symbolic because it wasn’t symbolic; and it wasn’t only spiritual either.

The word that was used for “eat” actually means “to munch on” or “to masticate” on something that is meat.

We also know that just eating the “flesh” of Jesus Christ without the Spirit is merely “dead” flesh and not “real food” as Jesus put it in the Gospel. That is one of the explanations for this following scripture verse. I added my little comment in there also. If you read it just as it is with my comment it might make you understand a little better what He actually meant.

63 It is the spirit that gives life, the (dead)
flesh (alone without the spirit) is of no avail;
the words that I have spoken to you are
spirit and life.

We also interpret this verse in the following way; that our own human understanding without the Holy Spirit & Words of Jesus Christ, is not enough to comprehend what Jesus meant.

When we eat something, it becomes part of us. When we eat the flesh of Jesus Christ, the opposite happens; we become more like Jesus Christ if we are freely and correctly disposed to the Grace of the Sacrament.

Here’s another way that we know it is not merely a “spiritual” food. The Manna in the OT was actually food that they ate. But it did not make them have eternal life. The manna was merely a “type” of the Eucharist. I hope we all realize that a “type” can never supersede the real deal in the NT, in this case the Eucharist. So on top of really eating food that merely sustained them physically, we can now really eat real food that will sustain our souls eternally. This is only possible by consecration done by a validly ordained Catholic Priest. Jesus was with the Apostles at the Last Supper when He instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist. No one else was there but Jesus and His 12 Apostles. The Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession.

Another way that you can say that it is not merely a “spiritual” food is because one does make a “Spiritual Communion” when one is not able to partake in Holy Communion either because of mortal sin or because one did not fast the appropriate time before going to Mass. If the Eucharist was merely Spiritual, then why bother partaking in the Eucharist at all? We could just make Spiritual Communions every day whether we are in sin or not.

I make a Spritual Communion when I watch the Daily Mass on EWTN. :gopray:

Cont…
 
…Cont
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jmcrae:
That’s why only taking a small amount gives us the whole thing. We don’t have to eat a man-sized wafer, or drink the equivalent amount of wine as there are gallons of blood in a man.

One tiny wafer OR one sip of wine IS the entire Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, living and present, of Jesus Christ.
:yup: That is why it is very important not to drop any crumb of the consecrated host because even that little crumb contains the whole Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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jmcrae:
It is because Jesus is the Passover Lamb of God that we, like the captive Israelites in Egypt, must consume it, in order to be set free from the bondage of sin.
Yep! :yup: Jesus told us Himself

53 … "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh
of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life
in you
,
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal
life, and I will raise him up at the last day
.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me,
and I in him
. John 6:53-56
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jmcrae:
Remember that all who did not consume the original Passover lamb were not set free from Egypt - how much more so, those who do not participate in the Sacraments of Jesus Christ, cannot be set free from sin.
True but there are exceptions. God does give graces accordingly to those who are not Catholic and therefore do not partake of the one Loaf that is Jesus Christ. I cannot imagine that all Protestants out there that do not partake of the Holy Eucharist are therefore not set free from sin. I think you meant for those who are Catholic and believe in the Real Presence yet refuse to go to confession and receive Holy Communion. It is said that to those who are given much, much is to be expected.

But I do take the Words of Jesus Christ very seriously. So I don’t fully understand how some Protestant denominations do not even practice communion or have the Lord’s Supper. Even if they did, it would not be valid anyway for the same reason as I posted in my previous post. For those Protestants who do believe in the “real presence,” I am not questioning your Faith. There is nothing wrong with your Faith and your belief in the real presence. It’s great that you believe the Words of Jesus Christ. What I would question is the fact that your denomination cannot have the Real Presence because you lack Apostolic Succession and validly ordained Priests in that succession. Only a validly ordained Priest can consecrate a host and change it into the Real Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When a Protestant is given the Grace by God to “see” and understand the Catholic teachings, I hope they don’t hesitate in becoming Catholic because they figure that they are already “saved” because they accepted Jesus as Lord & Savior. By all means, come join us here in the Church that Jesus Christ built. If you Love Jesus, you should also Love His Church. I hope one day all Protestants will experience Jesus Christ in the Eucharist because it is really Him. He promised us that He would be with us until the end of time, and not just spiritually, but substantially with us here in His Church.

Peace be with you and God bless. :gopray:
 
My cradle Catholic, now Protestant brother does not see this verse that way. This is what I told him and he does not believe that. I also told him that the Holy Spirit makes it possible for the bread to become the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ. I also explained to him John 6:66. I told him that he sounds just like those disciples that walked away from Jesus. My brother called me a cannibal.

Can I ask you Joey, what did it take (besides the obvious, God’s grace) for you to believe that verse for what it really is?

I guess the only thing that would make him believe is God’s Grace. I am praying for my brother. :gopray: Please pray for him?
First: Pure Enlightened Common Sense.

Second? I never had the preconcieved notions or misunderstandings of John 6. Why? I grew up in the backwoods Pentecostal/Congregational Holiness (you know the holy-rollers/snake handlers/dressses only ) church. Sunday School was strictly Old Testament stories. When I think back on all those sermons every Wendnesday, Sunday morning and Sunday Night and the yearly revival, I realized that over half of the New Testament was never covered. I don’t know whether it was intentional or not, but I can say that there were a lot of verses I never heard once. Here are a few:
  1. Christ was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. And all others “Breaking of the Bread” verses.
  2. Do this in rememberance of me.
  3. I am crucified with Christ.
  4. We preach Christ crucified.
  5. All the verses dealing with binding an loosing/retaining and forgiving.
When I started delving into Apologetics after the death of the Pope, I started realizing that all the verses that Catholics use to back up their position, I had never heard as well during my protestant days.

The only anti-catholic statement I ever heard was actually in Sunday School in a class that my step-mother taught and that was about the crucifix. She was half wrong and half right. She said the Byzantines created it to mock and ridicule christians. She said it and the peace symbol were bought satanic mockeries.

1980, I graduated from High School, joined the Navy and forgot about God for a while. I made attempt to read the bible starting with the NT and grew contemptous of it because of the contradictions and the verses and ideas I never heard of.

1983 I married a non-practicing Cradle Catholic. We married at the end of the year. 1985 my wife said she wanted to go back to church. I was terrified. This church was a satanic mockery of christians with their crucifix. To my dismay I found out just how wrong my step-mother was.

I immediately stepped in and started practicing, doing everything my wife did. My wife did her confirmation at an early age, so she had completely forgotten all the rules. Plus we traveled too much. Plus not one homily ever covered the dos and donts.

We finally settled down back in Alabama in 1992 in a town near my home town. In 1996 we got a new priest. The previous priest never held an RCIA classs. We decided to learn more about the faith by attending the 1997 RCIA class.

We soon found out that neither of us could legally take communion. We stopped immediately. I stop being a lector. We had our marriage blessed own our 14th anniversary in 1997 so my wife could resume communion. I confirmed the following Easter and resumed by Lector duties. People were shocked and happy at the same time to know that I was not a Catholic on Easter but make the final step across the Tiber.

Even then I was still luke warm in bible verses. My only concern was the Eucharist. I was hooked like a drug addict.

Then Pope JPII died. My brother, a Church of God Bishop, left a comment on my blog: “I hope the Pope got saved before he died”. I asked him why he would say that. He said: “He tells people to pray to Mary”. That set me on a journey to determine what the Catholic church really taught (mind you the RCIA class was very lacking in Scriptural Basis for the faith) so I attended RCIA again in 2005 as a refresher in addition to picking up a copy of “Surprised by Truth”.

Durig this journey I had to reevaluate myself as a Catholic and as a Knight of Columbus. I was lukewarm.
 
Continued:

So I sat down and started reading the NT again from my KJV. Since I did not have the preconcieved notions either Protestant or Catholic, the NT as a whole opened itself up as I read it and the “Surprised by Truth”

On Christmas Eve 2005 I confront my Dad and Step-mother as to their belief in my state of salvation. They confirmed my fears. They do not recognize me, my wife or my two children as Christians because we belong to the Catholic Church. As a result all communication has been severed. Then I soon joined Catholic Answers forums to learn more.

As a result of all this, I gave my conversion story to the RCIA class. The following week a Baptist man attending the classes asked me to be his sponsor because he felt a kinship with my story. That is the greatest honor a convert can have is to sponsor another a convert. This ex-Baptist is contemplating the Priesthood now.

That’s short version of the story. I am currently writing the long version for Patrick Madrid.

I hope you can use this.

God Bless.
 
By the same respect, we believe the Catholics are doing it “wrong” (in their thinking) as well. We know many Catholics that don’t agree with the Churches stands on certain issues, yet they stay and sometimes attempt at improvements. Same with us Protestants…it’s not a reason to leave, it’s a reason to improve.
That’s just it, we cannot change or “improve” anything in the Catholic Church because no human being can “improve” on the teachings of Jesus Christ. The only ones that have the GUARENTEE of the Holy Spirit are the Pope and the Bishops that are in UNION with the Pope, with Peter being the first Pope. They are the ones that pass down the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. That is called Apostolic Succession.

If this was the case as you state as “attempt at improvement” then we could just leave and start our own churches. … :hmmm: oh wait… the Protestants are already doing that, with Luther being the catalyst.

And those “Catholics” that “don’t agree with the Churches stands on certain issues,” are really not Catholic. They may as well join you or start their own churches because if they think they will “improve” on what Jesus taught, they got another thing comin’.

You just don’t “see” what we see here in the Church that Jesus Christ built on Peter the Rock. I will pray for you so that the Grace of God touch you in a way that you finally “see” what we see here in the Catholic Church.
 
…And St Augustine is highly respected amoungst calvinists as he held to some of the same views we do.
You got that backwards. Since Calvin quoted Augustine, Calvin held to some of the same views Augustine did. Augustine was alive and died way before Calvin existed.

There are many similarities between Protestantism and Catholicism; the only reason for that is because Protestants got a lot of things from the “mothership” when they jumped off. They had to take some of the things that were on the “mothership” otherwise they would sink.
 
I’m going to throw this out from left field. I think transubstantiation is nothing but a big spooky word some theologian came up with to describe what most Christians understand about communion. The bread (crackers, wafers, etc) and wine (mogen david, welchs, etc) in the solemn meal of communion contains the real presence of Christ. On a side note, I noticed this Sunday that my parish uses pre-shaped pieces that resemble the wafers I was accustomed to in other denominations. The priest has one larger piece that he symbolically breaks.

Obviously taking communion does not make you a cannibal. No living human was sacrificed for each mass and transformed into the body and blood of Christ. In one way, the bread and cup IS symbolic. However, there is a real physical presence in communion. That same physical presence exists where two or three are gathered in His name. To deny either would take away from the full spiritual and physical experience that Christ implemented at the last supper. I agree communion should EVER taken lightly or done in a sinful state.

Now I think it gets a little silly to argue semantics on who is more correct in their scripture parsing or who is or is not taking it seriously based on church traditions for implements. I understand (but do not agree) when denominations restrict participation to other members of the universal church. I believe God extends grace to all believers in matters of this nature as long as they are sincere and have understanding what they are doing when they approach the table.
 
Originally Posted by AlegreFe
My cradle Catholic, now Protestant brother does not see this verse that way. This is what I told him and he does not believe that. I also told him that the Holy Spirit makes it possible for the bread to become the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ. I also explained to him John 6:66. I told him that he sounds just like those disciples that walked away from Jesus. My brother called me a cannibal.
Can I ask you Joey, what did it take (besides the obvious, God’s grace) for you to believe that verse for what it really is?
I guess the only thing that would make him believe is God’s Grace. I am praying for my brother. Please pray for him?
I wish I had a better answer for you. John 6 has to be read as a whole not just bits and pieces. Even then it never proposed a problem for me. It just made plain sense as we understand it. Second logic comes into play. I am a programmer/analyst by profession. It is illogical for Jesus to say that we must eat his flesh and comeback and tell us that his flesh avails nothing. Logic dictates that he is not talking about his own flesh in the latter, more so when he does not specifiy explicitly his own flesh, but flesh in general.

Jesus was responding to their unability to know understand and comprehend what he was saying. Their shallow pharisee brain-washed minds could not comprehend the reality of the proclamation to actually eat his flesh.

666: and they no longer walked with the lord…

Revelations says that 666 is the number of a man, but when you look at the greek behind the word man, you find that the greek word is anthropos which actually means mankind or human beings.

So the verse should actually say 666 is the number of mankind.

what does this number mean? I can only speculate that it means John 6:66. Some people say that is impossible since the chapter and verse combination did not exist. That is true, but the fail to realize that John was seeing the future and the whole of Revelations is symbolic in nature. 666 could be nothing but the future reference to those that deny the literal teaching of John 6 and the subsequent consequence of not walking with Christ because they don’t partake of his flesh.
There no such thing as coincidences in the Bible. The hand and mind of God steers destiny to his ultimate goal.

God bless.
 
Continued:

So I sat down and started reading the NT again from my KJV. Since I did not have the preconcieved notions either Protestant or Catholic, the NT as a whole opened itself up as I read it and the “Surprised by Truth”

On Christmas Eve 2005 I confront my Dad and Step-mother as to their belief in my state of salvation. They confirmed my fears. They do not recognize me, my wife or my two children as Christians because we belong to the Catholic Church. As a result all communication has been severed. Then I soon joined Catholic Answers forums to learn more.

As a result of all this, I gave my conversion story to the RCIA class. The following week a Baptist man attending the classes asked me to be his sponsor because he felt a kinship with my story. That is the greatest honor a convert can have is to sponsor another a convert. This ex-Baptist is contemplating the Priesthood now.

That’s short version of the story. I am currently writing the long version for Patrick Madrid.

I hope you can use this.

God Bless.
WoW!! I am clapping with tears of joy!! I love your story so far. Yes I could use this. But I still don’t know how my brother will see this.

I am so happy that the former Baptist is contemplating the Priesthood. We are in need of Priests. And I’d hate to say this but some of our better Catholics are former Protestants. So I do believe that if this man becomes a Priest he will make a great priest.
 

Jesus was responding to their unability to know understand and comprehend what he was saying. Their shallow pharisee brain-washed minds could not comprehend the reality of the proclamation to actually eat his flesh.

666: and they no longer walked with the lord…

Revelations says that 666 is the number of a man, but when you look at the greek behind the word man, you find that the greek word is anthropos which actually means mankind or human beings.

So the verse should actually say 666 is the number of mankind.

what does this number mean? I can only speculate that it means John 6:66. Some people say that is impossible since the chapter and verse combination did not exist. That is true, but the fail to realize that John was seeing the future and the whole of Revelations is symbolic in nature. 666 could be nothing but the future reference to those that deny the literal teaching of John 6 and the subsequent consequence of not walking with Christ because they don’t partake of his flesh.
There no such thing as coincidences in the Bible. The hand and mind of God steers destiny to his ultimate goal.

God bless.
I agree with you here one hundred percent! 👍 And there are no coincidences in the Bible. I don’t even believe in coincidences at all. I only believe in “God-incidences.” 😃
 
That’s just it, we cannot change or “improve” anything in the Catholic Church because no human being can “improve” on the teachings of Jesus Christ. The only ones that have the GUARENTEE of the Holy Spirit are the Pope and the Bishops that are in UNION with the Pope, with Peter being the first Pope. They are the ones that pass down the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. That is called Apostolic Succession.

If this was the case as you state as “attempt at improvement” then we could just leave and start our own churches. … :hmmm: oh wait… the Protestants are already doing that, with Luther being the catalyst.

And those “Catholics” that “don’t agree with the Churches stands on certain issues,” are really not Catholic. They may as well join you or start their own churches because if they think they will “improve” on what Jesus taught, they got another thing comin’.

You just don’t “see” what we see here in the Church that Jesus Christ built on Peter the Rock. I will pray for you so that the Grace of God touch you in a way that you finally “see” what we see here in the Catholic Church.
Thats not true. If it were, there would have never been councils like Vatican II that brought Protestant and Catholic churches much closer together. Most of the reforms Luther suggested were later adopted after the fact. The Catholic church has been and continues to be a living breathing church that does from time to time change traditions, customs and secondary doctrines as the Holy Spirit leads us. But, the message of the gospel that Protestant and Catholic Christians profess is timeless and unchanging.
 
I agree with you here one hundred percent! 👍 And there are no coincidences in the Bible. I don’t even believe in coincidences at all. I only believe in “God-incidences.” 😃
The Bible when written was not divided into chapter and verse. The divisions we know of didn’t happen until the middle 1500’s and first introduced to English Bibles in the Geneva Bible of 1560. `
 
Continued:

So I sat down and started reading the NT again from my KJV. Since I did not have the preconcieved notions either Protestant or Catholic, the NT as a whole opened itself up as I read it and the “Surprised by Truth”

On Christmas Eve 2005 I confront my Dad and Step-mother as to their belief in my state of salvation. They confirmed my fears. They do not recognize me, my wife or my two children as Christians because we belong to the Catholic Church. As a result all communication has been severed. Then I soon joined Catholic Answers forums to learn more.

As a result of all this, I gave my conversion story to the RCIA class. The following week a Baptist man attending the classes asked me to be his sponsor because he felt a kinship with my story. That is the greatest honor a convert can have is to sponsor another a convert. This ex-Baptist is contemplating the Priesthood now.

That’s short version of the story. I am currently writing the long version for Patrick Madrid.

I hope you can use this.

God Bless.
I loved your story! Please let me know where we can get the book. 👍
You helped return your wife from the desert like I was. What a blessing and a miracle yoou both are 👍
desert :blessyou:
 
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