Protestant concept of the impossibility of God.

[Mannyfit75]

That was a rhetorical question in this context. I’m aware of the arguments for why Mary had to be sinless. That is not the issue here.

I understood your original argument to be that because Protestants do not believe in various Catholic doctrines, they are limiting God. I am trying to point out that one could say the exact same thing about Catholic doctrines. The fact that you say God hates sin, therefore Mary had to be sinless, shows the Catholic idea of God which DOES limit God. Protestants have similar frameworks, with different “limits”.

The question is not the actual doctrines. The question is, can God do anything? The answer is yes. But that does not mean He CHOOSES to do anything that he CAN. One could also say he cannot do certain things because to do them would to stop being what he is - a righteous, just, merciful, loving God.

Then why deny that Mary remain a Virgin since that was believed even in the first Century. It was not until Protestant came into being in the 1517-1530s that started invent new beliefs.

 

[AgnosTheist]

God has not revealed that to us. If he could, he would make us Immaculate if he so desire. However, he granted us the gift of free will. The right to decide right from wrong.

you speak as if free will contradicts immaculate conception.

“if he so desire”? of course. but he did not. same way as this:

Correct because they don’t believe **God is capable **of preserving Mary from sin.

“if he so desires”. Trust me, protestants are smart enough to know that God could preserve Mary from sin “if he so desires”. But from their view it wasnt God’s desire.

If Protestant believed that Jesus Christ established One Church upon Peter, they would be Catholic. Unfortunately, they don’t. But their own free will, they reject the revealed truth concerning the Papacy.

Of course. Again, the bone of contention isnt really about what God “can do” but what God “did do”.

 

[Mannyfit75]

you speak as if free will contradicts immaculate conception.

“if he so desire”? of course. but he did not. same way as this:

“if he so desires”. Trust me, protestants are smart enough to know that God could preserve Mary from sin “if he so desires”. But from their view it wasnt God’s desire.

They reject the authority of the Church which Christ has given to them. Since God established a Church, God therefore preserved Mary from sin and so declare the Church. Protestants don’t have any authority. They didn’t exist in the Apostolic Age. The Catholic Church on the other hand have existed in those days.

 

[AgnosTheist]

They reject the authority of the Church which Christ has given to them. Since God established a Church, God therefore preserved Mary from sin and so declare the Church. Protestants don’t have any authority. They didn’t exist in the Apostolic Age. The Catholic Church on the other hand have existed in those days.

Thats got nothing to do with what they believe about God. This is so silly. Telling Protestants what they believe. Its like telling Catholics that what they believe about Mary makes her equivalent to God.

 

[ralphinal]

Manny,
I did read the opening post. I know that you are not directing it at all protestants.

I do feel that everyone limits God. We have limited concepts of the infinite. We cannot explain or understand God.

Why didn’t God make everyone Immaculate? Because he wants us to be able to daily choose to love Him. We wants us to have the limits of free will that earth allows. Mary’s free will was complete as well, but without concupiscince, she could freely choose God without the struggles that we face. God could have started over with Noah and that bunch, but he did not.

God is not capable of Evil. That is all that he cannot do. He can do all things.

Please understand where Manny is coming from on this. Catholics are told a good bit that there can be no Real Presence because “That is impossible” or “God would not do that.” There is an arrogance in that. We are told that saints cannot hear us. If we say that God allows it, we are told that we are wrong. Again, it seems arrogant to deny God that ability. I may be wrong, but he is not questioning those who question our beliefs on scriptural grounds, but those who say that it is wrong because “God can’t or won’t”

 

[AgnosTheist]

Why didn’t God make everyone Immaculate? Because he wants us to be able to daily choose to love Him. We wants us to have the limits of free will that earth allows. Mary’s free will was complete as well, but without concupiscince, she could freely choose God without the struggles that we face. God could have started over with Noah and that bunch, but he did not.

why should we be faced with struggles? which makes it impossible for some people for choosing God! (like those who die in infancy)

God is not capable of Evil. That is all that he cannot do. He can do all things.

and he is not capable of creating a rock that is too heavy for him to lift.

he is not questioning those who question our beliefs on scriptural grounds, but those who say that it is wrong because “God can’t or won’t”

well if only he had quoted somebody who said “God can’t” in the first place!

 

[ralphinal]

AT,
That which doesn’t kill me makes me stronger!! I can;t even go that way with a straight face. The struggles are meant to help us become closer to God. Sometimes we loose track of that. You know good and well that we accept the fact that God has a mericful plan for those who cannot “choose” to follow him.

I am going to ignore that point about the stupid @___ rock. That is way played out, man. BEsides, God gave us reason…

For the last point, I jjust thought that I might have spoken out of school. Manny may not have been talking about that at all. It just seems like the topic to me.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The struggles are meant to help us become closer to God.

can struggles make us closer to God compared to mary’s relationship with God?

and wasnt adam & eve closer to god back when they were immaculate?

 

[ralphinal]

can struggles make us closer to God compared to mary’s relationship with God?

and wasnt adam & even closer to god back when they were immaculate?

We have a winner!!!

No, our struggles cannot make us closer to God than she was. They can make us LONG for closeness the way that she had. Mary had struggles, too. Single mother, adult son with no home or income who wandered the land with his buddies. He died a horrible death after hours of tourture. She was taken care of by his buddies after he was gone, and she watched them suffer and for the most part get killed as well.

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day. But, today, even with our suffering, we are closer than he was. We are united to God through Christ in the Church and we are united physically with Him in the Euchirist. Now, since you do not believe that, you are hung out to dry. For you, Adam was closer. Come back home and you can be closer than Adam ever dreamed!

 

[AgnosTheist]

Mary had struggles, too. Single mother, adult son with no home or income who wandered the land with his buddies. He died a horrible death after hours of tourture. She was taken care of by his buddies after he was gone, and she watched them suffer and for the most part get killed as well.

hey you forgot about joseph! its unfair that catholics always skip on the guy. for me he was more heroic than mary. his struggles much more harder, especially if you assume that he cant have sex with the sexy & stunningly beautiful lady sleeping right beside him!

but i always wondered why he’s not there on the crucifixion. had he died, had he remarried or had he gotten fed up with mary & left?

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day. But, today, even with our suffering, we are closer than he was.

god walking beside you, thats my idea of a caring father.

 

[BrianH]

When Protestants deny essential Christian beliefs, this would imply that God can’t preserved Mary from sin.

and no I am not getting cream. Protestants are.

 

[bengal_fan]

this thread is pointless. manny, you need to learn how to swim before going into the deep end. God can do anything He wishes, every protestant would say this. you are simply reading way too much into people who believe differently than you. yes, they ARE your beliefs… just because you didn’t come up with them doesn’t mean you didn’t choose to believe them. you have faith, i have faith. ultimately we place that faith in the one, true God (and His Son and Holy Spirit being part of that one, true God) which means we believe in the same God. you are doing no good with your trying to tear down others’ beliefs and you aren’t even doing any good in communicating your own (grammar check would be great!!). i’m out… peace.

 

[mark_a]

This thread is not directly aim at all Protestants. There are those who adhere to similiar beliefs as Catholic. I do like to point out that nearly all the discussion I have with most Protestants here, they seem to think that God can’t do everything.

Do you want me to explain. Consider these supernatural aspect of certain Catholic beliefs that are essential to our faith.

Perpetual Virginity of Mary: Mary remain a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus Christ. Catholics and Orthodox affirms this and believe that God made this possible hence. All things are possible with God.

Protestant Objection: Most Protestants object to this belief, and therefore, I could rightly assumed that God cannot do this, so God, in essence, is the God of impossibility not possiblity.

Other Protestant objections is the Real Presence, Immaculate Conception, Assumption of Mary, which the Catholic Church affirms that this is possible through God’s power, while Protestant reject this so again. We see Protestant see God as the God of impossiblitity.

Papal Infallibility is the other thing. That is the Pope when teaching in his teaching office on matters and faith and morals cannot error because the Holy Spirit preserve him from teaching erroneous doctrines.

Conclusion: I can probably go on and type other Protestant objection. However the main point is clear. Catholics believe that miracles can happen with the help of the Power of God, or his intervention. While Protestants do not believe it is possible.

The question remains, which Christian faith affirms that with God all things are possible? It seem to me that the Catholics affirm this strongly compared to Protestant brand of theology.

Manny, its like they think that Jesus’ promise to the Church is just too good to be true.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, its like they think that Jesus’ promise to the Church is just too good to be true.

That is exactly where I’m getting at. They don’t rely on Church authority but just use Scripture and completely disregard Church authority. In Acts, Christians recognized the Church authority lead by the Apostles. If the Church declare certain truths to be true, they are true. If they aren’t, then what is the point of having Jesus grant his Apostles authority?

 

[ralphinal]

hey you forgot about joseph! its unfair that catholics always skip on the guy. for me he was more heroic than mary. his struggles much more harder, especially if you assume that he cant have sex with the sexy & stunningly beautiful lady sleeping right beside him!

but i always wondered why he’s not there on the crucifixion. had he died, had he remarried or had he gotten fed up with mary & left?

god walking beside you, thats my idea of a caring father.

Pious tradition teaches that he had died just before Jesus began his ministry.

I agree that God walking beside you is a loving father. Even more so now that He still wants to be with us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thats got nothing to do with what they believe about God. This is so silly. Telling Protestants what they believe. Its like telling Catholics that what they believe about Mary makes her equivalent to God.

I have not say anywhere in this thread that we are making Mary equivalent to God. What I am getting at is the complete disregard to Church authority by Protestants. That is a problem. The Church in acts resolve the issue on Gentile concerning circumcism. The issue of Mary’s sinlessness has been defined by the Church in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD. Not to mention the rejection of the title Theotokos or Mother of God by some Protestants…

I can go on. The problem is also the total disregard of Tradition which are honored in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and the removal of the Sacraments (by some Protestant Churches) which has been established by Jesus Christ himself. As far as I know both Anglican and Lutheran look at the first 7 Councils of the Church with some reservation…

 

[mozart-250]

His miracles are false.

You are completely missing my point.

The issue is could it have happened versus did it happen.

God could have healed my neighbor through Benny Hinn.

Mary could have been assumed or could have been perpetually a virgin or could have been conceived without original sin.

However, I have no reason though to believe that God healed my neighbor through Benny Hinn without supporting evidence. Neither do I have any reason to believe any of the Marian dogmas without evidence.

Neither of these cases involve a lack of faith. Or a belief that God couldn’t have done this.

Both of these cases do involve a lack of evidence on the part of the person making the claim.

This is very elementary logic. I don’t know why you don’t get it.

The statement

While Protestants do not believe it is possible.

makes absolutely no logical sense and seems to be a poorly constructed tact to smear Protestants.

Anyway, this is my last word on this topic. Anything else would be redundant.

 

[paarsurrey]

Perpetual Virginity of Mary: Mary remain a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus Christ. Catholics and Orthodox affirms this and believe that God made this possible hence. All things are possible with God.

Hi

These concepts have been formed by inferences by the Catholics. For a belief CLAIM and REASON must be from the book you belive in, not from you own reasoning. The Protestants are right, there are **no straight passages **in the Bible to form a claim or a reason for these concepts.

Thanks