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Dokimas
Guest
Maybe originally. But not now.
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spoiltvictorian
Guest
I think I said this earlier, but I’ll say it again. There are people who, because they misunderstand the roles of crucifixes and other Christian images, bar themselves from closer communion with God in churches holding truer to the Faith. That makes it a serious issue for them. Look back at history to see how many churches have been burned because they were considered “idolatrous.” This can be a big deal, even if you don’t care. And your statement isn’t even neutral, because for people against crucifixes as idols, your “no comment” answer is not disapproval and therefore takes a stand against them.
I agree that we are not able to fully understand God’s mysteries, but God has still given us the faculties to discuss them, understand small parts of them and reflect on them. It’s not right to argue pridefully and you are absolutely right that our concern should be that the truth prevails and not that we prevail. That’s a separate issue from the actual disagreement/debate.
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Roy5
Guest
SpoilVictorian
Code:
Actually, I don't know how many churches were burned because they were considered idolatrous. I do recall reading about iconoclasts who went about smashing statues, stained-glass windows, and beautiful works of art. I regret all this, of course. My simple Protestant church - the one I was raised in - had no statues but did have stained-glass windows.
I have, however, read about many people being burned to death or otherwise killed because they were judged to be 'heretics', or sometimes 'witches'. Religious fanaticism was usually to blame, 'good Christians' who in the name of the God of love committed such outrageous atrocities, most often against fellow Christians. There is some of that demonic spirit still loose in the world, certainly among Muslim extremists, but among some Christian fanatics, too. I detect a little of this wild intolerance occasionally here on CAF. That attitude is easily created by any expression of religious body that claims that it alone has all the essential truth and every other faith is in serious error.
God bless those of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.
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Dcngman
Guest
As a former protestant I can assure you that, for the most part, Protestants do not display Crucifixes because they believe that they imply that the work of Christ is not complete. They think that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are misguided and ignorant when it comes to Christ’s victory over death. I have had many Protestant friends tell me that they didn’t like the movie The Passion of the Christ; because it didn’t really show the Resurrection. They felt that the Resurrection should have been the focal point of the movie. Unfortunately most Protestants do not understand the beauty and importance of the Passion and the Cross.
I like to explain why I wear a crucifix or have one in my house to people by telling them about a certain lady I remember from my youth. This woman wasn’t Catholic or Orthodox and she came across as a bit eccentric and foolish; but she was a very wise lady. Her name was Minnie Pearl and she is best known as a comedic star of the Grand Ole Opry. Her stage persona was that of a genuine small town country woman who always tried to look her best. Her trademark was the hats she would wear. They were not the latest fashion of some chic designer. On the contrary, they were usually gaudy and ridiculous looking and she always had the price tag still attached to them, dangling from them. She was often asked why she still had the price tag hanging from her hat and she always gave the same response to that question. How else is anyone going to know how much it cost? So I tell people the reason I were a crucifix or have one in my house is to remind me of what my salvation cost. That’s one price I never want to forget or take for granted. An empty cross may imply Victory to some (consider how such a cross is used today to mark the graves of those who have died); but a crucifix reminds me of the cost. Besides there are crucifixes that have a Risen Christ (Corpus Rex) on them instead of a Suffering Christ (Corpus Christi).
I like to explain why I wear a crucifix or have one in my house to people by telling them about a certain lady I remember from my youth. This woman wasn’t Catholic or Orthodox and she came across as a bit eccentric and foolish; but she was a very wise lady. Her name was Minnie Pearl and she is best known as a comedic star of the Grand Ole Opry. Her stage persona was that of a genuine small town country woman who always tried to look her best. Her trademark was the hats she would wear. They were not the latest fashion of some chic designer. On the contrary, they were usually gaudy and ridiculous looking and she always had the price tag still attached to them, dangling from them. She was often asked why she still had the price tag hanging from her hat and she always gave the same response to that question. How else is anyone going to know how much it cost? So I tell people the reason I were a crucifix or have one in my house is to remind me of what my salvation cost. That’s one price I never want to forget or take for granted. An empty cross may imply Victory to some (consider how such a cross is used today to mark the graves of those who have died); but a crucifix reminds me of the cost. Besides there are crucifixes that have a Risen Christ (Corpus Rex) on them instead of a Suffering Christ (Corpus Christi).
The Church I grew up in had a chapel constructed on the main floor (the nave on the second floor) in the late 50’s, early 60’s. At the altar is a large Risen Christ crucifix. It is a beautiful image.
Jon
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Roy5
Guest
Dcngman
Code:
Check #132.
But I might make the point that thousands of innocent people have been killed because they interpret the teaching of Christ and the scriptures, including the crucifixion, in ways not in keeping with official doctrine.
My own emphasis is upon feeling the spirit of Christ and acting upon it. No, I don't speak in tongues, but I do appreciate those who experience their faith not so much through formal masses, the smell of incense, ancient chants, and staid rituals borrowed in large part from the Greeks and Romans, and often incorporating bits of mythology borrowed from those two honorable traditions (e. g., the whole saint phenomenon).
It impresses me that the surge of Christianity today across the 3rd world is not within Catholicism, Orthodoxy or traditional Protestantism but in spirit-filled forms of Pentecostal Protestantism. I am not among their number but we need a more joyful, upbeat expression of our Christian faith than is found in most liturgical churches, and the rise of Pentecostalism is a protest against formal repetitions usually borrowed from pious prayerbooks. For those who are in love with antiquity, fine, but for modern generations that is like using a horse and buggage in an age of jet travel. Changing cultures challenge us to find new more relevant pattern of religious expression. This notion that what was appropriate in the 3rd and 4th century is what we must continue today is blind to the present realities.
May God bless Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and those of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.
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LutheranDK
Guest
LDK, do you mean to say you haven’t done your annual protest outside a Catholic Church this year, as required by the Confessions?
Jon
Thank you - I needed that laugh
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LutheranDK
Guest
And your interpretation of “protestant” is anglophone and anachronistic.Baloney? You mean to tell me that you really don’t know what the term “Reformation” means? To “reform” the one true church of Christ. Protestanism to “Protest” the one true church of Christ. You cannot debate this any other way, although I love how you try to.For to protest what Christ has already established is simply heresy.
Look up the word “protesto” in a Latin dictionary, please, then come back and join the conversation.
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LutheranDK
Guest
PWNED!
Not to mention Vatican II.
It must take TREMENDOUS leaps of faith and putting reason aside, in order to overlook how Tridentinum and Vatican II are blatantly contradictory…
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Dcngman
Guest
Roy5
I’ve read your posting #132 and I find it seriously flawed. The fact is that we are to remember His Suffering; that is why He still bears the scars upon His hands, feet, head and side. These reminders did not disappear when He rose from the dead and they are never going away. As to your claims that the Traditions of the Holy Church are borrowed from the Romans and the Greeks and have no place in the Christian Church; I see no such evidence in Church or secular history. Much of what is found in Church Tradition is also found in historic Jewish Religious Tradition. Incense, candles, chants (which are not vain repetitions, but songs of worship) and others were all part of the worship of the Temple. Both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not worship anyone; but God. The saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary (and no she was not just a woman, she had a very unique relationship with Christ that none of us will ever have) are not worshiped. They are adored just as we adore our family members. They are also remembered for the lives that they lived and the examples they provided. When we pray to the saints and the Blessed Virgin; we are asking them to pray for us (the word pray doesn’t just mean to speak to deity) just as we would ask a friend or loved one to pray for us. The difference is that those who are in God’s Presence do not have the hindrances to prayer as we who are on the earth.
Perhaps for you an empty cross reminds you of the Victory; for me I see too many empty white crosses along road sides and in grave yards. And as I said before, the Christus Rex is a crucifix with the Risen Christ on it which celebrates His Victory over death. Besides many of the Protestant Churches I have visit over the past few years don’t even have a cross anywhere in the Church itself.
Also to the person who pointed out that the fastest growing “Christian Tradition” was Pentecostal Protestantism let me just say that I am a former Charismatic Protestant and know first hand how mesmerizing such experiences can be. That doesn’t make them valid. Nor does it mean that the growth of Protestant Pentecostalism is evidence that it is valid. Too many have “itching ears” and are easily swayed by seductive doctrines. Yet many Protestants (Fundamentalists and Charismatics) are finding their way back to the Historic Churches of Rome and the East. We have become disenfranchised by the shallow piety, slick rhetoric and Hollywoodish performances that pass for Church services. We long for the depths of devotion and the beauty of worship found in Ancient Tradition. So I am not swayed by the “numbers” that are surrendering themselves to such practices. I am concerned for them and I will pray for them.
I’ve read your posting #132 and I find it seriously flawed. The fact is that we are to remember His Suffering; that is why He still bears the scars upon His hands, feet, head and side. These reminders did not disappear when He rose from the dead and they are never going away. As to your claims that the Traditions of the Holy Church are borrowed from the Romans and the Greeks and have no place in the Christian Church; I see no such evidence in Church or secular history. Much of what is found in Church Tradition is also found in historic Jewish Religious Tradition. Incense, candles, chants (which are not vain repetitions, but songs of worship) and others were all part of the worship of the Temple. Both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not worship anyone; but God. The saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary (and no she was not just a woman, she had a very unique relationship with Christ that none of us will ever have) are not worshiped. They are adored just as we adore our family members. They are also remembered for the lives that they lived and the examples they provided. When we pray to the saints and the Blessed Virgin; we are asking them to pray for us (the word pray doesn’t just mean to speak to deity) just as we would ask a friend or loved one to pray for us. The difference is that those who are in God’s Presence do not have the hindrances to prayer as we who are on the earth.
Perhaps for you an empty cross reminds you of the Victory; for me I see too many empty white crosses along road sides and in grave yards. And as I said before, the Christus Rex is a crucifix with the Risen Christ on it which celebrates His Victory over death. Besides many of the Protestant Churches I have visit over the past few years don’t even have a cross anywhere in the Church itself.
Also to the person who pointed out that the fastest growing “Christian Tradition” was Pentecostal Protestantism let me just say that I am a former Charismatic Protestant and know first hand how mesmerizing such experiences can be. That doesn’t make them valid. Nor does it mean that the growth of Protestant Pentecostalism is evidence that it is valid. Too many have “itching ears” and are easily swayed by seductive doctrines. Yet many Protestants (Fundamentalists and Charismatics) are finding their way back to the Historic Churches of Rome and the East. We have become disenfranchised by the shallow piety, slick rhetoric and Hollywoodish performances that pass for Church services. We long for the depths of devotion and the beauty of worship found in Ancient Tradition. So I am not swayed by the “numbers” that are surrendering themselves to such practices. I am concerned for them and I will pray for them.
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Give me a break…Jesus Christ established the Catholic church, with which is Apostolic and certainly has the Four Marks ofPWNED!
Not to mention Vatican II.
It must take TREMENDOUS leaps of faith and putting reason aside, in order to overlook how Tridentinum and Vatican II are blatantly contradictory…
His church which is quoted in Scripture. With that being said, you mean to tell me that the first 1500 years, Christ was wrong? The Catholic church is the only church that is truly Apostolic. That we have an unbroken link of popes starting from St. Peter, until now? UNBROKEN! No one else can claim this. 2,000 years of guidance from the Holy Spirit. Doesn’t that tell you something?
The fact that your “glorious reformer” Luther had come in, deciding he just didn’t like how things were going ACCORDING TO HIM, can decide against the one true church of Christ, that has been preached for 2,000 years, from the Early Church Fathers, until now, the audacity of this man, is well, unspeakable.
Furthermore, Vatican II has NOTHING to do with changes in doctrine, but within the church, the Liturgy. Remember doctrines never change within the Catholic church, but they have in Protestant churches, thanks to your “glorious reformers”.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Then I think you need a serious bible study my friend.
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tweetymom
Guest
I think we all need a lot of Bible Study:thumbsup: As well as love for one another.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
OTCA knows what “Protestant” means (at least, the original meaning of the word); it’s been in my signature for years. Of course, she thinks I am stalking her…
If I remember correctly, protestō/protestant is present indicative, and protestántis is the participle: “To declare in public, affirm, bear witness.” The Spanish word is the same as the Latin (as many words are).
It is probably a mistake to label all non-Catholic Christians as “Protestant” - it’s at best a catch-all and not a very historically accurate one, and akin to calling all Catholics “Roman Catholic.” But, we humans prefer generalizations to accuracy, mainly because we don’t have to keep so many things in our head.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I think you seriously need an attitude check and some serious study of history - and your catechism, my friend.
A
AwGusTeen
Guest
At our chruch we have a huge life size crucifix behind the alter. One sees this upon entering the church, and throughout the Mass. However, once Mass ends and we are sent forth, one sees on the exit wall a full size statue of the risen Christ as if assending in glory to the Father.
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LutheranDK
Guest
So…you use the bulk of your post to make your usual sales pitch, and the last part of it to just make a statement, as well as accusations, without relating to the fact that Vatican II and Tridentinum actually DIFFER from each other, not only in liturgy (as you try to convince me), but also in doctrine.
For example, concerning the Christians who are not RC…
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
The Catholic church is the ONLY church in which it ha the Four Marks:
**ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC. **Orthodox BROKE OFF from their Catholic roots and deny the pope. The pope and the bishops are Apostolic. Get it?
**ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC. **Orthodox BROKE OFF from their Catholic roots and deny the pope. The pope and the bishops are Apostolic. Get it?
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Where in the past 2,000 years has the Roman Catholic church had changed any doctrines whatsoever. Where?? Because they haven’t and won’t. Only your so-called “Glorious Reformer” had the audacity to do so.
J
Justy90
Guest
Nobody gets it because it’s not true. Have you lost it or what?
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