Protestant Cross

[mouse_has_faith]

Obviously this doesn’t cut it for all Protestants, so I put this explanation up here PURELY as my friend’s personal one: my friend, who is a Protestant, told me once that the crucifix shows Jesus in a state of suffering, so it’s a sign of defeat. Henceforth I believe the implication was that the crucifix is evil because it can attract evil.

Rest assured, of course, I’m sure some/ many Protestants would disagree with that explanation, as I said, it’s only a personal explanation from my friend.

 

[JonNC]

=Newbie2;5818284]

Have you ever seen a crucifix in a Lutheran Church, Jon? Just wondering. Apparently there are some Lutheran Churches that will cross themselves and do other “Catholic” things. I thought that I heard from a Lutheran friend that he did see one in a Lutheran Church, but I can’t remember if it was LCMS, ELCA, or another Lutheran flavor.

The church of my childhood (LCA/ELCA) had a large one over the altar in the chapel. My current church (LCMS) also has a large one over the altar in the sanctuary.

I’d have to agree with the notion that the empty cross represents the Risen Christ, and the emphasis thereupon vs. the Catholic emphasis on Christ Crucified.

I like the Catholic notion that the empty tomb represents the risen Chirst. As some have said here, we preach Christ, and Him crucified.

Jon

 

[Bluegoat]

The church of my childhood (LCA/ELCA) had a large one over the altar in the chapel. My current church (LCMS) also has a large one over the altar in the sanctuary.

I think one thing that often makes a difference is just when your church was built, and in what style. The last church I attended was neo-gothic and had a crusifix on the altar. THe one I go to now, though actually much more traditional, is neo-classical, and has a cross that fits the style of the building.

http://www.roundchurch.ca/images/choir09.jpg

 

[spoiltvictorian]

The church of my childhood (LCA/ELCA) had a large one over the altar in the chapel. My current church (LCMS) also has a large one over the altar in the sanctuary.

I like the Catholic notion that the empty tomb represents the risen Chirst. As some have said here, we preach Christ, and Him crucified.

Jon

Out of curiosity, how many members of your church cross themselves during the service? About 5% of ours do, mostly converts from Catholicism, and me, the one considering converting to Catholicism.

 

[JonNC]

Out of curiosity, how many members of your church cross themselves during the service? About 5% of ours do, mostly converts from Catholicism, and me, the one considering converting to Catholicism.

Really, about 10 to 15%,and probably more than that at the altar when receiving the Eucharist.

Posted by bluegoat:
I think one thing that often makes a difference is just when your church was built, and in what style. The last church I attended was neo-gothic and had a crusifix on the altar. THe one I go to now, though actually much more traditional, is neo-classical, and has a cross that fits the style of the building.

My childhood chiruch was built in 1850. My current one in the 1960 's.

Jon

 

[Roy5]

Perhaps a little heresy here will stimulate some thought.

I know that as Christians we are supposed to be very moved by Christ's suffering, and I am. In fact I taught comparative religions in college at one point and when I came to the passion of Christ I could become quite emotional in lecturing on it. 

 But let me add something that will not set well with most posters. When I see Christ on the cross, I think of the gross suffering that human beinga have suffered through the centuries. Remember all those who have died, often very young, because of plagues, persecution, wars, tragic accidents, excruciating diseases, gnawing hunger, and much more. I sometimes even bring to mind the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai, slaughtered by Joshua, the Amalekites, murdered by Saul, and, of course, the Holocaust as well as all the 60 million killed in World War II. I think of American young men and women who gave their lives in our wars, starting with the Revolution and through Korea and Vietnam, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all the innocent civilians, mostly women and children, killed in such wars. And what about the millions lost through miscarriages or aborted?

   Now, as a Christian (albeit a liberal one) I am very moved by Christ's death. However, now and then I am tempted to think this way. Forgive it in advance. Jesus went through some hours of torment and torture, true. Yes, I am deeply touched by it. But he knew that he would rise in three days and reign eternally over the entire universe. He knew that as the Son of God he had a special place 'on the right hand of the Father Almighty'. He knew that he had power over everything, including death. etc. 

   But millions of everyday people, with no such expectations, have suffered for weeks, months, even years, perhaps in the frozen areas of Siberia, or in WWII concentration camps, maybe on beds of pain for months and longer suffering from cancer or leprosy or dozens of other diseases. Some died after accidents, lingering for weeks. Some died on the battlefield, maybe bleeding to death alone and lonely. Many have died alone in convalescent homes, with little to comfort them. And we could go on and on.

   So, I sometimes am tempted to think that Christ on the cross symbolizes and memoralizes and remembers and honors so many, many, many innocent people, most of them unknown and unsung. It should remind us that we must not forget these people and those who suffer today, that we should make greater and greater effort to wage peace, feed the hungry, fight diseases, battle injustice, and much more. 

   God bless people of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Perhaps a little heresy here will stimulate some thought.

I know that as Christians we are supposed to be very moved by Christ’s suffering, and I am. In fact I taught comparative religions in college at one point and when I came to the passion of Christ I could become quite emotional in lecturing on it.

But let me add something that will not set well with most posters. When I see Christ on the cross, I think of the gross suffering that human beinga have suffered through the centuries. Remember all those who have died, often very young, because of plagues, persecution, wars, tragic accidents, excruciating diseases, gnawing hunger, and much more. I sometimes even bring to mind the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai, slaughtered by Joshua, the Amalekites, murdered by Saul, and, of course, the Holocaust as well as all the 60 million killed in World War II. I think of American young men and women who gave their lives in our wars, starting with the Revolution and through Korea and Vietnam, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all the innocent civilians, mostly women and children, killed in such wars. And what about the millions lost through miscarriages or aborted?

Now, as a Christian (albeit a liberal one) I am very moved by Christ’s death. However, now and then I am tempted to think this way. Forgive it in advance. Jesus went through some hours of torment and torture, true. Yes, I am deeply touched by it. But he knew that he would rise in three days and reign eternally over the entire universe. He knew that as the Son of God he had a special place ‘on the right hand of the Father Almighty’. He knew that he had power over everything, including death. etc.

But millions of everyday people, with no such expectations, have suffered for weeks, months, even years, perhaps in the frozen areas of Siberia, or in WWII concentration camps, maybe on beds of pain for months and longer suffering from cancer or leprosy or dozens of other diseases. Some died after accidents, lingering for weeks. Some died on the battlefield, maybe bleeding to death alone and lonely. Many have died alone in convalescent homes, with little to comfort them. And we could go on and on.

So, I sometimes am tempted to think that Christ on the cross symbolizes and memoralizes and remembers and honors so many, many, many innocent people, most of them unknown and unsung. It should remind us that we must not forget these people and those who suffer today, that we should make greater and greater effort to wage peace, feed the hungry, fight diseases, battle injustice, and much more.

God bless people of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

That sounds the very opposite of heretical - It sounds Christian & Biblical. It corrects the individualism one so easily falls into, surely.​

 

[4EverHis]

the reason we have the Crucifix is not because we believe Jesus is still on the Cross… that’s a terrible misunderstanding of Catholicism

we have the Crucifix to help us remember the suffering that Our Lord went through.

 

[4EverHis]

One experience. I was flying back from India years ago and struck up a conversation with a woman seated alongside me. We finally got into religion, and when I spoke as a Christian she immediately said: “I could never belong to a religion whose symbol was an instrument of torture.” I told her that as a Protestant the cross to me (and others) was seen as a symbol of victory over torture, holding out the promise of victory to all Christians who lived by faith.

 If some Christians are fortified in their faith by a crucifix, fine. When I worship in a Catholic Church which has a huge crucifix bearing a very gory Jesus I personally think of this as a symbol that I cannot shsre. It focuses on the suffering Christ while I focus on the triumphant Christ. That seems to me to have been his principal message and the message of hope that sustains me. 

  God bless everybody. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

Hi, to me, the crucifix is a symbol of God’s love… that He agreed to this suffering out of love for us.

Perhaps a little heresy here will stimulate some thought.

I know that as Christians we are supposed to be very moved by Christ's suffering, and I am. In fact I taught comparative religions in college at one point and when I came to the passion of Christ I could become quite emotional in lecturing on it. 

 But let me add something that will not set well with most posters. When I see Christ on the cross, I think of the gross suffering that human beinga have suffered through the centuries. Remember all those who have died, often very young, because of plagues, persecution, wars, tragic accidents, excruciating diseases, gnawing hunger, and much more. I sometimes even bring to mind the inhabitants of Jericho and Ai, slaughtered by Joshua, the Amalekites, murdered by Saul, and, of course, the Holocaust as well as all the 60 million killed in World War II. I think of American young men and women who gave their lives in our wars, starting with the Revolution and through Korea and Vietnam, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all the innocent civilians, mostly women and children, killed in such wars. And what about the millions lost through miscarriages or aborted?

   Now, as a Christian (albeit a liberal one) I am very moved by Christ's death. However, now and then I am tempted to think this way. Forgive it in advance. Jesus went through some hours of torment and torture, true. Yes, I am deeply touched by it. But he knew that he would rise in three days and reign eternally over the entire universe. He knew that as the Son of God he had a special place 'on the right hand of the Father Almighty'. He knew that he had power over everything, including death. etc. 

   But millions of everyday people, with no such expectations, have suffered for weeks, months, even years, perhaps in the frozen areas of Siberia, or in WWII concentration camps, maybe on beds of pain for months and longer suffering from cancer or leprosy or dozens of other diseases. Some died after accidents, lingering for weeks. Some died on the battlefield, maybe bleeding to death alone and lonely. Many have died alone in convalescent homes, with little to comfort them. And we could go on and on.

   So, I sometimes am tempted to think that Christ on the cross symbolizes and memoralizes and remembers and honors so many, many, many innocent people, most of them unknown and unsung. It should remind us that we must not forget these people and those who suffer today, that we should make greater and greater effort to wage peace, feed the hungry, fight diseases, battle injustice, and much more. 

   God bless people of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

Hi, thanks for sharing your thoughts… I used to sort of feel similarly, but I encourage you to really think carefully about Christ’s suffering cause it wasn’t just physical.

Yes He knew that He would rise again… but His main concern was not with Himself.

Have you ever heard of the idea that the more a person loves, the more they are able to suffer. If a stranger hurts you, that isn’t as bad as when your best friend hurts you.

Jesus was letting HImself be murdered by His own creation. When He looked at the soldiers driving the nails through His hands and feet, - He saw people that He loved into existence, people He knows everything about, from the inside of their hearts… people that He destined to be with HIm forever, because He couldn’t bear to be parted from them out of His love. And they were the ones murdering Him…

then He thought of all the people He is dying for …all us sinners. And He KNEW that even with this great sacrifice of HIs life… there would still be people who would reject and hate Him, and would go to hell… Jesus grieves over every lost soul… then maybe He thought of all the ways people offend the Father… and since He loves the Father perfectly, like no one else, of course this would hurt Him so much too.

A person who loves someone always wants to be close to them, so does God, He wants us to live in union with HIm… this is what we were made for. And instead, they were reacting to His love and forgiveness with so much anger and hatred and malice.

I think if we look at it that way… that Jesus’ suffering was more than physical suffering alone… we can see that He went through more pain than anyone, ever.

All the people who suffer today in the world… and there are people who are going through A LOT… they can all turn to Him and He will give them strength and peace - if they let Him… But Jesus had no one to turn to, when He was on the Cross, He even felt abandoned by the Father… and remember what He said, “the Father and I are one”. We can’t imagine a greater sense of abandonment.

And through this all, He could have ended the suffering at ANY moment… He could have made all the people believe in Him, or go back to Heaven, or make it so that He wouldn’t feel any pain… but He CHOSE to still go through it all for our sake.

God bless

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Really, about 10 to 15%,and probably more than that at the altar when receiving the Eucharist.
Jon

That’s wonderful. I wish more of us would so I didn’t feel so conspicuous. Our pastor periodically reminds people that it’s fine to do that, but most don’t bite.

 

[Nominefili]

Ouch. I don’t agree with the statement either, but couldn’t we just go with “you’re mistaken”?

Have you ever seen a crucifix in a Lutheran Church, Jon? Just wondering. Apparently there are some Lutheran Churches that will cross themselves and do other “Catholic” things. I thought that I heard from a Lutheran friend that he did see one in a Lutheran Church, but I can’t remember if it was LCMS, ELCA, or another Lutheran flavor.

I have seen them at several Lutheran churches, and certainly in the homes of Lutherans. We have no objection to the crucifix.

 

[Lapey]

Although I understand the Protestant position, to me, the plain cross without the corpus is an instrument of the cruelest torture. It was the crucifixion of Christ that turned it from a sign of tortuous and ignominious death to one of life and hope.

I had a bit of a journey to get there though. When I first became Catholic, I preferred a cross with the Risen Christ, emphasising the Resurrection. I really did have an aversion to looking at His Passion. I recalled an old western film where an outlaw walks into a Catholic church for the first time, sees the crucifix and comments, “That looks worse than hangin”. I really didn’t want to look at it. I still did not understand the Cross. Now, 29 years down the track, I have replaced all my crosses with the Risen Christ with Crucifixes, as I have come to understand that we must journey that same path with Christ, suffering the buffets and jeers, the beatings and mockings, the crowning with thorns, the painful carrying of our own cross and finally, the abandoning of ourselves to God in our own deaths, all the while remaining faithful to God and His commandments, never forsaking Him.

It is having His image before me, in His Passion and Death, that now encourages me to remain faithful. Every sin I commit is a offence against God and another hammerblow on the nails, another flail of the scourge, another slap in the face of my beloved Jesus.

I work part-time at a private school run by fundamentalists. One of them once asked me why I wear a crucifix. He seemed quite satisfied with my answer, “It reminds me of the price He paid for me.”

Well said Linda!!!

 

[Lutheranteach]

I certainly don’t object to it, although I do not find it a symbol that I find as moving as I do an empty cross. I do have a Luther Rose lapel pin that I wear quite often and almost always wear when I go to mass with Catholic relatives. It is not attention attracting, and the well-versed, well-educated Priest at their church knows what it is and he appreciates it and we have a healthy respect for one another. He even asked if I could get one for him. I think he uses it for a religion class.

THE first thing expressed in my seal is a cross, black, within the heart, to put me in mind that faith in Christ crucified saves us. “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.”

Now, although the cross is black, mortified, and intended to cause pain, yet it does nor change the colour of the heart, does not destroy nature- i.e., does not kill, but keeps alive. “For the just shall live by faith,” -by faith in the Saviour.

But this heart is fixed upon the centre of a white rose, to show that faith causes joy, consolation and peace. The rose is white, not red, because white is the ideal colour of all angels and blessed spirits.

This rose, moreover, is fixed in a sky-coloured background, to denote that such joy of faith in the spirit is but an earnest beginning of heavenly joy to come, as anticipated and held by hope, though not yet revealed.

And around this groundbase is a golden ring, to signify that such bliss in heaven is endless, and more precious than all joys and treasures, since gold is the best and most precious metal. Christ, our dear Lord, He will give grace unto eternal life.

http://www.redeemerconvoy.com/luther rose.jpg

 

[Newbie2]

I have seen them at several Lutheran churches, and certainly in the homes of Lutherans. We have no objection to the crucifix.

I never saw one in my LCMS church growing up, just wondering.

 

[JonNC]

I have seen them at several Lutheran churches, and certainly in the homes of Lutherans. We have no objection to the crucifix.

I remember we received one - wall sized, about 10" high by 4-5" wide - at the end of 6th or 7th grade Sunday School. The cross was wood and the figure of Christ was peuter.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

I have seen crucifixes in both ELCA and LC-MS churches, although not in many.

I have a crucifix on the wall of my study where it reminds me daily of Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[Autumn_of_Life]

Having been a Protestant, and now converting to Catholic, I will answer this question. Protestants see the Cross as representing the Resurrected, the Risen, Christ – the Hope which is promised by His resurrection. “He is not here. He is risen.” Both the Crucifix and the “Protestant” Cross can have very important meanings for all Christians.

 

[sixofseven]

I have both. When non-Catholics friends have their children baptised I buy them a ‘non-Catholic’ cross - some are painted in glorious colours and I think it does represent the hope of heaven that Christ’s death on the cross brought about. And I also don’t want to offend them.

However, for those who do not know Christ - what value does an empty cross have? For those who do know Christ we know the value, through and through. I think a crucifix shows what Christ went through for us - it portrays the torture, it portrays our sins, it portrays His suffering, it portrays His death, it portrays His love.

He didn’t rise from the cross, He rose from the tomb.

Maybe we are just being scrupulous.

When I pray the rosary, especially the sorrowful mysteries, I love holding the crucifix at the bottom with my free hand and hold His body to bring to mind what this man did for me. Reflecting on His physical death, His poor body that He gave up for us and I say ‘Thank you and have mercy on me’.

Thank you - because of what He did we now have the hope of Heaven
Have mercy on me - because despite what He did, I am still a sinner, and through this death I am able to receive His forgiveness even though I am so unworthy.

Does Christ still feel the pain of His suffering? Do you think that each time we sin He feels it? He is hurt by it? He laments for us out of love? He feels rejected?

He DIED for us, by His own words the greatest thing one can do, yet we continue to sin!
He said many say Lord Lord, but He will say I do not know you - why? Because of our sin, our rejection of Him. So he must still feel it, right? If we reject Him, He will reject us.

I only ask because some of these posts are heavily concentrated on his resurrection and triumph (which is great and wonderful and true!!!) but do you think that perhaps that by not focussing on His death and suffering that we can perhaps not concentrate on our own failings?

What I mean is - He did this to take away our sin - His body on the cross represents our sin, yet we continue to sin. I know the more I reflect on His body on the cross, the more I realise how I have failed and how I can repay Him, how I can follow Him, how I can submit to Him and serve Him.

It’s probably a bit more than 2 cents but I ponder on this a lot.

 

[thirdn6]

What I know is this…

That Jesus, after His resurrection from the dead, showed to the doubting Thomas a body that had suffered- a ‘glorified’ body with ‘holes’ NOT a glorified body that has ‘completely’ healed (without scars).

I see Him as both emphasizing the triumph over death (resurrection) and at the same time not forgeting what He went through (the sacrifice). The same is true when He ‘broke bread’ with the two guys in Emmaus… re-living or commemorating His sacrifice on the cross.

Why did He chose not to forget His own suffering after resurrecting (let bygones be bygones, you know) and should have just sung “Kumbaya” all night with the apostles and forget everything?

… an empty cross, hmmm…

Peace. But Truth is more important…

 

[Dokimas]

Doesn’t communion (wine and broken bread) commemerate the death of Jesus?​

Then the empty Cross commemerates the resurrection.​

Both are vital and they are inseperable.