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Techno2000
Guest
Excellent point… why didn’t Jesus just heal the holes in his hands now that he’s risen.What I know is this…
That Jesus, after His resurrection from the dead, showed to the doubting Thomas a body that had suffered- a ‘glorified’ body with ‘holes’ NOT a glorified body that has ‘completely’ healed (without scars).
I see Him as both emphasizing the triumph over death (resurrection) and at the same time not forgeting what He went through (the sacrifice). The same is true when He ‘broke bread’ with the two guys in Emmaus… re-living or commemorating His sacrifice on the cross.
Why did He chose not to forget His own suffering after resurrecting (let bygones be bygones, you know) and should have just sung “Kumbaya” all night with the apostles and forget everything?
… an empty cross, hmmm…
Peace. But Truth is more important…
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Dokimas
Guest
No one I know is saying that the cross has lost its relevence. As I’ve tried to say, the Cross and the Resurrection can’t be separated. They are vital to salvation.What I know is this…
That Jesus, after His resurrection from the dead, showed to the doubting Thomas a body that had suffered- a ‘glorified’ body with ‘holes’ NOT a glorified body that has ‘completely’ healed (without scars).
I see Him as both emphasizing the triumph over death (resurrection) and at the same time not forgeting what He went through (the sacrifice). The same is true when He ‘broke bread’ with the two guys in Emmaus… re-living or commemorating His sacrifice on the cross.
Why did He chose not to forget His own suffering after resurrecting (let bygones be bygones, you know) and should have just sung “Kumbaya” all night with the apostles and forget everything?
… an empty cross, hmmm…
Peace. But Truth is more important…
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Zundrah
Guest
My religion doesn’t change, it just simply hops from protestant to “nearly catholic”.
Calm down.the reason we have the Crucifix is not because we believe Jesus is still on the Cross… that’s a terrible misunderstanding of Catholicism
we have the Crucifix to help us remember the suffering that Our Lord went through.
Well actually, it is a matter of personal interpretation.
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Dokimas
Guest
May I repectfully say, truth has nothing to do with personal interpretation.
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Shannon9791
Guest
That never made much sense to me. There were probably tens of thousands of people who were crucified, and the cross is what they were hung on. Without the specific corpus, it just seems to be a cruel way to execute someone. Why not have an empty electric chair and a hangman’s gallows on either side of it?
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NotTooSmart
Guest
Wow, six pages of arguing over whether the Protestant cross or Catholic crucifix is preferable.
With all due respect, this seems to be a waste of six pages. Of course now, I am being a hypocrite by adding to this bandwidth.
With all due respect, what does it matter? It seems to me that both the crucifixion and the resurrection are integral parts of the gospel message.
Good grief.
This issue really seems like an argument over absolutely nothing.
(Now I have had the naughty idea of wearing a crucifix just to see what type of response I get. But admittedly I guess I don’t have the guts to pull that stunt.)
With all due respect, this seems to be a waste of six pages. Of course now, I am being a hypocrite by adding to this bandwidth.
With all due respect, what does it matter? It seems to me that both the crucifixion and the resurrection are integral parts of the gospel message.
Good grief.
This issue really seems like an argument over absolutely nothing.
(Now I have had the naughty idea of wearing a crucifix just to see what type of response I get. But admittedly I guess I don’t have the guts to pull that stunt.)
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spoiltvictorian
Guest
Here are some reasons why I think this thread is more important than you think it is:
- Some people might be rejecting truer denominations because they wrongly see Crucifixes as idols. Clearing this misconception up might allow some Christians to join better churches and bring them into closer communion with Christ.
- Some of us are tortured by little issues like this, and working them out is really helpful for us.
- The troublemakers in this thread are here instead of in a more important thread.
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tweetymom
Guest
Exactly my feelings. Who really cares? Aren’t there more important things to talk about?
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Dokimas
Guest
I’m glad that the false record was set straight that non-catholic Christians don’t understand the GREAT VALUE in the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. We sure do understand that if it wasn’t for the crucifixion of Jesus then there would be no forgiveness of sins and no resurrection. The two can’t be separated in value.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree. I actually think Protestant churches preach more about the death of Christ than His life. It is understandable that Christ and Him crucified is the centrality of grounded Protestant Churches. However, better grounded Protestant Churches proclaim that both the life of Christ and the death of Christ merited everything for those who believe. In the OT, God promises blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Since Christ obeyed the Father perfectly, He merited eternal blessings for those who are united to Him. It is by the life of Christ that God is able to pour out grace upon grace on His adopted children, based on the obedience of Christ (active work of Christ).
On the other end, Christ bore the penalty of all of our sins on our behalf, by His passive obedience through the cross. His death He died for us or on our behalf. So by the life of Christ and death of Christ… all the promises are yes in Christ for those who believe. I know you know this… but I posted this for our Catholic siblings in case they see things differently. IMO… historic Evangelical Theology is better than historic Catholic Theology. An empty cross is my preference.
http://landofmysojourn.net/sitebuilder/images/cross_sunrise-255x336.jpg
Christian unity is based on the person and work of Christ on our behalf.
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Zundrah
Guest
You may well say whatever you please but let me tell you that I was specifically responding to this bit;
Which isn’t true because you may wear a plain cross or crucifix to please your self, and suit to your own interpritation of it. eg; I take the crucifix when I pray, but I wear a plain cross for daily life… see?
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Techno2000
Guest
A True Letter Of Our Savior Jesus Christ
Consecrating the Drops of Blood which Our Lord Jesus lost on His way to Calvary.
Copy of a letter of the Oration found in the Holy Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, preserved in a silver box by His Holiness and by the Emporers and Empresses of the Christian Faith.
St. Elizabeth, Queen of Hungary, with St. Matilda and St. Bridget, wishing to know something of the Passion of Jesus Christ, offered fervent and special prayers, upon which there appeared to them Our Lord Jesus Christ who spoke to them in the following manner:
I descended from Heaven to the Earth in order to convert you.
In olden times, people were religious, and their harvests were abundant; at present, on the contrary, they are scanty.
If you want to reap an abundant harvest you must not work on Sunday, for Sunday you must go to Church and pray to God to forgive your sins. He gave you six days in which to work and one for rest and devotion and to tender your help to the poor and assist the Church.
Those people who brawl against My Religion and cast slurs on this Sacred Letter will be forsaken by Me.
On the contrary, those people who shall carry a copy of this letter with them shall be free from death by drowning and from sudden death. They shall be free from all contagious diseases and lightning; they shall not die without confession, and shall be free from their enemies and from the hand of wrongful authority, and from all their slanderers and false witnesses.
Women in peril at child-birth will, by keeping this Oration about them, immediately overcome the difficulty. In the houses where this Oration is kept, no evil thing will ever happen: and forty days before the death of a person who has this Oration about him or her, the Blessed Virgin will appear to him or her. So said St. Gregorious.
To all those faithful who shall recite for three years, each day, 2 Paters, Glorias, and Aves, in honor of the drops of blood I lost, I will concede the following five graces:
1st The plenary indulgence and remission of your sins.
2nd You will be free from the pains of Purgatory.
3rd If you should die before completing the said 3 years, for you it will be the same as if you had completed them.
4th It will be upon your death the same as if you had shed all your blood for the Holy Faith.
5th I will descend from Heaven to take your soul and that of your relatives, until the fourth generation.
Be it known that the number of armed soldiers were 150; those who trailed me while I was bound were 23. The number of executioners of justice were 83; the blows received on my head were 150; those on my stomach, 108; kicks on my shoulders, 80. I was led, bound with cords by the hair, 24 times; spits in the face were 180; I was beaten on the body 6666 times; beaten on the head, 110 times. I was roughly pushed, and at 12 o’clock was lifted up by the hair; pricked with thorns and pulled by the beard 23 times; received 20 wounds on the head; thorns of marine junks, 72; pricks of thorns in the head, 110; mortal thorns in the forhead, 3. I was afterwards flogged and dressed as a mocked king; wounds in the body, 1000. The soldiers who led me to the Calvary were 608; those who watched me were 3, and those who mocked me were 1008; the drops of blood which I lost were 28,430.
Benedetta DA S.S.; Pope Leo XIII, in Roma 5 Aprile 1890
angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/ThePieta/ojususletter.html
Consecrating the Drops of Blood which Our Lord Jesus lost on His way to Calvary.
Copy of a letter of the Oration found in the Holy Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, preserved in a silver box by His Holiness and by the Emporers and Empresses of the Christian Faith.
St. Elizabeth, Queen of Hungary, with St. Matilda and St. Bridget, wishing to know something of the Passion of Jesus Christ, offered fervent and special prayers, upon which there appeared to them Our Lord Jesus Christ who spoke to them in the following manner:
I descended from Heaven to the Earth in order to convert you.
In olden times, people were religious, and their harvests were abundant; at present, on the contrary, they are scanty.
If you want to reap an abundant harvest you must not work on Sunday, for Sunday you must go to Church and pray to God to forgive your sins. He gave you six days in which to work and one for rest and devotion and to tender your help to the poor and assist the Church.
Those people who brawl against My Religion and cast slurs on this Sacred Letter will be forsaken by Me.
On the contrary, those people who shall carry a copy of this letter with them shall be free from death by drowning and from sudden death. They shall be free from all contagious diseases and lightning; they shall not die without confession, and shall be free from their enemies and from the hand of wrongful authority, and from all their slanderers and false witnesses.
Women in peril at child-birth will, by keeping this Oration about them, immediately overcome the difficulty. In the houses where this Oration is kept, no evil thing will ever happen: and forty days before the death of a person who has this Oration about him or her, the Blessed Virgin will appear to him or her. So said St. Gregorious.
To all those faithful who shall recite for three years, each day, 2 Paters, Glorias, and Aves, in honor of the drops of blood I lost, I will concede the following five graces:
1st The plenary indulgence and remission of your sins.
2nd You will be free from the pains of Purgatory.
3rd If you should die before completing the said 3 years, for you it will be the same as if you had completed them.
4th It will be upon your death the same as if you had shed all your blood for the Holy Faith.
5th I will descend from Heaven to take your soul and that of your relatives, until the fourth generation.
Be it known that the number of armed soldiers were 150; those who trailed me while I was bound were 23. The number of executioners of justice were 83; the blows received on my head were 150; those on my stomach, 108; kicks on my shoulders, 80. I was led, bound with cords by the hair, 24 times; spits in the face were 180; I was beaten on the body 6666 times; beaten on the head, 110 times. I was roughly pushed, and at 12 o’clock was lifted up by the hair; pricked with thorns and pulled by the beard 23 times; received 20 wounds on the head; thorns of marine junks, 72; pricks of thorns in the head, 110; mortal thorns in the forhead, 3. I was afterwards flogged and dressed as a mocked king; wounds in the body, 1000. The soldiers who led me to the Calvary were 608; those who watched me were 3, and those who mocked me were 1008; the drops of blood which I lost were 28,430.
Benedetta DA S.S.; Pope Leo XIII, in Roma 5 Aprile 1890
angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/ThePieta/ojususletter.html
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Liraco
Guest
Interesting how you see Christ’s death as “defeat”. It’s quite the contrary.
Paul wisely wrote that the cross is a stumbling block for many, and this thread brings that fact out. Jesus is indeed resurrected and well, but that shouldn’t divert us from WHY He came. Certainly there is reason to rejoice, we do it every Sunday! Don’t forget His sacrifice and how our sins put Him there though, if it makes one uncomfortable it should. We don’t like to feel guilty, and while He came to forgive us our sins, we should be mindful not to abuse said forgiveness.
What do you mean “come from above”? Normally this would mean to me that it comes from God. Not from the Holy Spirit? What about the epiclesis, which is where the Holy Spirit is invoked to transform the bread and wine into His body and blood?
Also, remember that a Catholic homily is not the same as preaching done in other churches, as it’s meant to teach on what the readings of the day were. The reason they’re similar is because the readings on Saturday night and Sunday are the same (going to mass on Saturday evening fulfills our Sunday obligation). I agree it’s a shame that so many don’t see the mass for what it is and indeed see it as a burden they just can’t wait to be over (I was like that once, cuz I really had no idea what it really meant or what was really going on). It’s certainly not supposed to be entertainment but we should certainly ask for better homilies from our priests.
Agreed, we should focus more on what we have in common than fight about details which aren’t as important as the bigger picture.
A valid question was raised, but as generally happens some people take things much further than needed.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Aren’t there a lot of pointless threads? Yet, we still reply to them.
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Dokimas
Guest
Is it pointless to clear up wrong understandings?
I know some of my wrong understanding have been cleared up.
Do you now realize an empty cross does NOT mean that we are ashamed of the crucifixion or in any way minimize the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth (His broken Body and shed Blood)?
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tweetymom
Guest
Amen to that!
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
I never accused any protestant of this. And I was not saying this was a pointless thread. I agree that it’s great to clear up misunderstandings.
Weren’t you the one who agreed this whole thread was pointless?
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Liraco
Guest
Now, now, Lil’ flower, let’s not start a fight.
If there’s no further questions being raised and no more real discussion to be had then we can consider this subject done for the time being. No need to pick fights on if this was pointless or not.
It certainly helped someone learn so that proves its worth right there.
If there’s no further questions being raised and no more real discussion to be had then we can consider this subject done for the time being. No need to pick fights on if this was pointless or not.
It certainly helped someone learn so that proves its worth right there.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Not trying to start a fight; simply correcting an accusation!
That’s true!It certainly helped someone learn so that proves its worth right there.
I actually did think this was a good thread! I had a different understanding of a protestant cross before I read this!
God Bless you all
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