Protestant death-mongers

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montanaman

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Got your attention, didn’t I. 😉

I have come across several Protestants now who believe that the Bible not only allows for the death penalty, but recommends it? Is this just an old-time OT interpretation, or have you heard something else?

Personally, I think it’s the natural end of their flawed theology–kill everyone who disagrees with us!–but then, I guess Catholics aren’t exactly immune to that accusation…
 
The death penalty can be strongly defended both scripturally and ethically.

The current Catholic position against it is the logical consequence of a total pro-life theology, and particularly of this Pope’s conviction that offenders should be given every moment up to their last breath to repent of their sins (or to do penance for them).

My own take on this is that the death penalty makes sense, yet as a society – or as individuals – whenever we do not kill somebody, it is a better thing than when we do kill somebody.
 
Actually, supporting the limited use of the death penalty can be rectified with a total pro-life position, in that some criminals are incorrigable and may be prone to escape, or potentially be a threat to other inmates or even the guards themselves. Executing a condemned murderer who posses a threat is within the states purview of defending its citizenry. That said, I do agree that capital punishment is used too frequently in this country. Scott Peterson should not get the death penalty, regardless of how barbarous his crime was. He is no longer a threat to society once he is behind bars. Inmates and guards have nothing to fear from that skinny white boy. HE should be afraid of the other inmates. However, Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey should be fried until they are extra crispy, as their murderous tendencies cannot be rehabilitated.
 
I agree with all of this, and I think we should lean toward mercy. However, I’ve had a number of alleged Christians claim that there’s some kind of mandate from Christ to “hang 'em high.” I was just wondering if anyone here has come across this argument. It strikes me as bloodlust, pure and simple.

Oh, and if not for the civilizing effect of Catholicism, I too would be screaming for a rope anytime a muderer or pedophile is convicted. But I try to think WWJD…
 
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montanaman:
I agree with all of this, and I think we should lean toward mercy. However, I’ve had a number of alleged Christians claim that there’s some kind of mandate from Christ to “hang 'em high.” I was just wondering if anyone here has come across this argument. It strikes me as bloodlust, pure and simple.

Oh, and if not for the civilizing effect of Catholicism, I too would be screaming for a rope anytime a muderer or pedophile is convicted. But I try to think WWJD…
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Well, since some fundamentalist have a propensity to be Zionists, and psychologically identify with sacrifical Judaism, it is logical that they would sympathize with the Old Testament “Stone 'em” mentality. I mean really, if a woman was raped in-town, she was stoned for not yelling loud enough. Seriously! This sort of thinking borders on a Christian version of the Islamic sharia.
 
Even a cursory reading of history will demonstrate that over the past millenium the western world has evolved views of appropriate punishment that move away from brutal punishment to sequestration. All of us are familiar with the barbarous punishment of burning at the stake. In the 17th century a criminal being held in jail was usually awaiting something worse like hanging or physical disfigurement such as being branded behind the ear, having ears lopped off or noses split.

By the end of the 18th century long term jailing was in evidence, and by the end of the 19th century people like the Quakers had exercised enough influence that society decided that a good way to treat criminals would be to have them think about their crime so they could repent and be penitent. The institutions they invented are called penitentiaries, where hard core criminals are suppose to be penitent - sorry for their crimes.

At the same time the majority of people seemed to belong to one of two groups. The first group wanted to punish wrongdoers; the second wanted to change wrongdoers, mistakenly called “rehabilitation.”

Right now, the punishers seem to have the upper hand because “rehabilitation” doesn’t seem to work. There is much recidivism

The Church participated in what are considered now to be barbarous punishments but probably was only following along with what society at the time would tolerate. What the Church really objected to in many instances was the extreme deformation or destruction of the human body. This is the reason many torture chambers were designed so that the efforts would not spill (much) blood. The guillotine was frowned on because it severed the head from the body. This was also true with other punishments like drawing and quartering. But, for centuries the Church did not object to capital punishment. Strong ecclestiastical objection seems to have come only recently within the last century or so.

Finally, I don’t think rocks should be thrown at the protestants on this issue, as Catholics have had their share of involvement in perceived barbarity. Probably nobody can outdo Hitler for his depredations and he was Austrian Catholic.

Today, the argument continues unabated between those for and against the death penalty. Both sides can make some compelling arguments.
 
Hitler didn’t consider himself Austrian or Catholic.
In fact her was and avowed Anti-Catholic New Ager
 
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gus:
Hitler didn’t consider himself Austrian or Catholic.
In fact her was and avowed Anti-Catholic New Ager
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Actually, Hitler used his Austrian Catholic heritage (he claimed to have once been an altar boy) when it was convenient, and promptly dismissed it when it wasn’t.
 
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Apologia100:
Actually, Hitler used his Austrian Catholic heritage (he claimed to have once been an altar boy) when it was convenient, and promptly dismissed it when it wasn’t.
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Hitler sound like a lot of american catholic polticians.
🙂
 
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Apologia100:
Actually, Hitler used his Austrian Catholic heritage (he claimed to have once been an altar boy) when it was convenient, and promptly dismissed it when it wasn’t.
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At first glance, I though this was still pre-election discussion of the Dem candidate…sorry:wave:
 
I frankly dislike the idea brought up by some Protestants that Hitler and Stalin were Catholics in good standing. See Karl Keatings E-Letter some weeks ago concerning his last debate against Dave Hunt who did just that.

I offer this as my own opinion soley. We know that as of Fourth Lateran council Catholics are required to received communion at least once a year during Lent to be “Catholics in good standing”. Further, missing Mass once on sunday puts one in mortal sin. Finally some mortal sins such as abortion (or assisting in) carry with them a mandatory penalty of excommunication. Without judging anyone I wonder if some of the activities of the Third Reich would qualify for automatic excommunication in a similar vein - not passing judgment on anybody. However, this is off the topic.
 
Yes, I have run across this “hang 'em high” attitude from Protestant Christians. Most of it was based in the OT, but other than that, I can’t tell you much about it, I tuned them out.

Your sister in Christ,

Maria
 
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Apologia100:
Actually, Hitler used his Austrian Catholic heritage (he claimed to have once been an altar boy) when it was convenient, and promptly dismissed it when it wasn’t.
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Quite true,

He invoked the name of God when issuing the Liebstandtardte their first orders into Russia.
 
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philipmarus:
I frankly dislike the idea brought up by some Protestants that Hitler and Stalin were Catholics in good standing. See Karl Keatings E-Letter some weeks ago concerning his last debate against Dave Hunt who did just that.

I offer this as my own opinion soley. We know that as of Fourth Lateran council Catholics are required to received communion at least once a year during Lent to be “Catholics in good standing”. Further, missing Mass once on sunday puts one in mortal sin. Finally some mortal sins such as abortion (or assisting in) carry with them a mandatory penalty of excommunication. Without judging anyone I wonder if some of the activities of the Third Reich would qualify for automatic excommunication in a similar vein - not passing judgment on anybody. However, this is off the topic.
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It’s a known fact that Stalin attended seminary in Georgia. Obviously, this didn’t work out for the better…
 
Having read what seemed to be the more on-topic posts in this thread, I feel comfortable saying what I say now.

There’s plenty of negativity towards the death penalty, but may I propose the common proposition that God’s Law (including punishments) is the expression of His view of justice, and guards us from imposing ungodly means of justice, such as lifetime imprisonment, which leads to criminals getting released in 1 or 2 decades, many times the only change is that they are a “hardened” criminal rather than just a “criminal.”

I am one who believes, based upon my Christian worldview, that just as God honors the positive efforts we make at personal sanctification by blessing us with greater love for Him, He also honors our positive civil efforts at honoring Him by holding to His prescribed punishments for crimes. After all, we know from Him what constitutes a crime (even through Scripture, Tradition, and Nature), so why now learn from Him what the punishments for the crimes are (from Scripture, Tradition, and Nature)?

Obviously, I think that only a Christian civil government would care enough to think that way, let alone act that way, so the anti-death penalty groups don’t have much to worry about for the time being in many countries.
 
Reformed Rob:
Having read what seemed to be the more on-topic posts in this thread, I feel comfortable saying what I say now.

There’s plenty of negativity towards the death penalty, but may I propose the common proposition that God’s Law (including punishments) is the expression of His view of justice, and guards us from imposing ungodly means of justice, such as lifetime imprisonment, which leads to criminals getting released in 1 or 2 decades, many times the only change is that they are a “hardened” criminal rather than just a “criminal.”

I am one who believes, based upon my Christian worldview, that just as God honors the positive efforts we make at personal sanctification by blessing us with greater love for Him, He also honors our positive civil efforts at honoring Him by holding to His prescribed punishments for crimes. After all, we know from Him what constitutes a crime (even through Scripture, Tradition, and Nature), so why now learn from Him what the punishments for the crimes are (from Scripture, Tradition, and Nature)?

Obviously, I think that only a Christian civil government would care enough to think that way, let alone act that way, so the anti-death penalty groups don’t have much to worry about for the time being in many countries.
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Christians in the past seem to had no problem living with some pretty unpleasant forms of capital punishment, such as hanging, drawing and quartering traitors, boiling poisoners, pulling regicides apart with wild horses, burning heretics alive, and similar delights. Electrocuting murderers - which is no older than 1890 AFAIK - is hardly humane 😦​

 
If Hitler was a Catholic as an adult then George Washington was Chinese.

The man consulted a variety of cultists.
 
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Apologia100:
However, Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey should be fried until they are extra crispy, as their murderous tendencies cannot be rehabilitated.
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Actually, if I remember correctly (maybe I’m wrong), Ted Bundy went fundie before his execution. No necessarily a fan of his denominational pick, but from what I understand, he was sincere and repentant.

Again, working on death row as long as I did tended to loosen my perspective a bit.
 
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philipmarus:
I frankly dislike the idea brought up by some Protestants that Hitler and Stalin were Catholics in good standing. See Karl Keatings E-Letter some weeks ago concerning his last debate against Dave Hunt who did just that.

I offer this as my own opinion soley. We know that as of Fourth Lateran council Catholics are required to received communion at least once a year during Lent to be “Catholics in good standing”. Further, missing Mass once on sunday puts one in mortal sin. Finally some mortal sins such as abortion (or assisting in) carry with them a mandatory penalty of excommunication. Without judging anyone I wonder if some of the activities of the Third Reich would qualify for automatic excommunication in a similar vein - not passing judgment on anybody. However, this is off the topic.
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Well there is some major misinformation going on Hitler was a baptized catholic true but he was never confirmed and did not attend church as an adult. Stalin was not Catholic he was Russian Orthodox and went to an Orthodox seminary he shut down all catholic churches in Russia and killed many catholics in Russia just for being catholic. So no he was not catholic.
 
cs lewis made an excellent point regarding capital punishment - one that helped bring me to my current thoughts on the subject.

he said that people are eternal, and societies are temporary. when you place the good of a society above the good of a person, you are exercising incredible shortsightedness.

which brings me to the idea that, as long as we as a society are ABLE to separate the dangerously criminal from the ‘safer elements’ without extraordinary hardship on the society, we should keep criminals alive until their natural deaths. how can we possibly know who will and who won’t repent before they die?

we cannot.
 
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