Protestant death-mongers

[PaulDupre]

mercygate:

The death penalty can be strongly defended both scripturally and ethically.

The current Catholic position against it is the logical consequence of a total pro-life theology, and particularly of this Pope’s conviction that offenders should be given every moment up to their last breath to repent of their sins (or to do penance for them).

I should think that impending death would be a powerful incentive to repent, to those who are so inclined.

“The gallows doth wonderfully concentrate the mind” - Dr. Samuel Johnson

Paul

 

[Reformed_Rob]

## Christians in the past seem to had no problem living with some pretty unpleasant forms of capital punishment, such as hanging, drawing and quartering traitors, boiling poisoners, pulling regicides apart with wild horses, burning heretics alive, and similar delights. Electrocuting murderers - which is no older than 1890 AFAIK - is hardly humane ##

Moses was perfectly content, as was Joshua and Caleb, with stoning people. As barbaric as it seems to us, that was indeed God’s divine orders.

It’s odd, that in order to kick against the goads, so to speak, you complain in the same manner that atheists do, saying “Oh, it’s so barbaric, if there was a God, He would never command anyone to do that to another person.”

 

[Reformed_Rob]

And don’t forget about the thief on the cross next to Christ. The one that was humble and repentant in the midst of his punishment for the sins he was guilty of.

Of course, we may disagree with the Roman’s whole plan of crucuficion, but the principle is that he saw the temporal punishment for sin, and that was undoubtedly had a lot to do with his conversion, as it were, being immediately faced with the temporal punishment for sin.

Death row ministry has meat, prison for life ministry is still useful, but lacks the force of God’s Law.

 

[patricius]

Yes, but the fact that prisoners are more likely to repent if threatened with execution does not in and of itself justify executing them! By this logic, whether or not the person is guilty makes no difference-- a Christian state should just round up unbelievers and executing them, prompting many (most, maybe) of them to “hedge their bets” and accept faith.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Maybe I wasn’t clear. Perhaps the Pope might one day teach that’s a legitimate way of getting converts in a Christian/Catholic nation, but as a Reformed guy, I’d say it’s not proper to put all the non-Christians on death row so some of them might repent.

It’s the government’s duty to bring criminals to be punished for their crimes. It’s the Church’s “duty” to teach the Christian faith and bring people into covenant with God through Christ. The church exercises discipline in it’s realm, and the government likewise in it’s realm.

The Holy Office of the Inquisition as conducted by the Dominicans was an excellent example (for the most part I think) of the Church exercising Her discipline in Her realm. When whichever Pope it was handed authority for it over to the secular govt. in Spain, then it went downhill, fast. The civil govt. was then doing something for the totally wrong reasons, (and quite barbaric in it it would seem), that should of been done by the church.
Actually, I don't think that previous post deserves much more of a response. I'm kind of taken aback by it.

 

[patricius]

Rob,

I’m not trying to offend you. I’m sorry if that’s the effect I’m having. It just seemed to me that your post #23 was talking about how execution is an incentive for conversion. I simply wanted to point out that this doesn’t legitimize executions.

patricius

 

[jeffreedy789]

i’m sorry you were taken aback, but it is also what i was thinking. just go around killing people, giving them an hour or so before they die to ‘make amends’. you’d probably see alot of converts that way.

it was posted: ‘Of course, we may disagree with the Roman’s whole plan of crucuficion, but the principle is that he saw the temporal punishment for sin, and that was undoubtedly had a lot to do with his conversion, as it were, being immediately faced with the temporal punishment for sin’

i’d say being face to face with Christ probably had alot to do with it. the other thieves on all the other crosses (crucifixion was very popular with the romans, lining the roads into jerusalem with many, many people on crosses) didn’t necessarily see ‘the light’ as readily as the one beside Christ.

the thing is, if you execute a criminal who is not in the grace of God, you are sending him to hell. if he had more time, he could hear the right person, read the right book, or just be convicted by the spirit of God as he mellows with age, and he might escape the eternal punishment to which we hasten him with execution.

i used to be pro-capital punishment. but when i rethought my position, in light of what the church teaches, i found its position to be much wiser and more balanced than mine.

 

[uniChristian]

I have read these posts and I still don’t get how capitol punishment is a Protestant issue. I am not a Protestant but I would like to understand the concept.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Montanaman,

Jesus gives Apostolic Successors His sworn oath that He will hold sins bound in heaven of anyone whom they, on earth, call upon Him to do so.

If you had to choose between Jesus holding you bound to your sin when you get to heaven or the State putting you to physical death, which would you choose?

Please visit Throwing Stones

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but not I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB ISA 11:4

The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. NAB MAT 18:17

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Reformed_Rob]

patricius:

Rob,

I’m not trying to offend you. I’m sorry if that’s the effect I’m having. It just seemed to me that your post #23 was talking about how execution is an incentive for conversion. I simply wanted to point out that this doesn’t legitimize executions.

patricius

Ok, point well taken.

One problem I have, however, is that it’s hard to say “the church teaches this” when in fact there seems to be a good case to be made for the church’s teaching having being changed.

**But now, take a deep breath. ** ** In what follows, I will demonstrate: **

• **that the Church has perennially endorsed capital punishment as legitimate under certain circumstances **
• **that capital punishment has nothing to do with “a lack of forgiveness or mercy” or with revenge **
• **how the Newchurch is slowly trying to change the Church’s position on capital punishment, now even attempting to make it a “Pro-Life” issue **
• **how the new stance on the death penalty of Pope John Paul II and the Newchurch is based on a distorted and exaggerated view of human dignity (“humanism”) **
• that the Neo-Catholic claims that a “development of doctrine” has occurred are false, most easily demonstrated using the New Catechism, which changed its teaching within a mere 5 years from its first to its second edition!
  

     **   So then, let us set out on our course and begin with the          first point, namely, that the Church has always considered capital punishment          a moral option for particularly heinous crimes.**

Did that catch your attention? Read more here.

The writing is not that long, and addresses many points of this issue.

 

[Cubsfan]

JamesS:

It’s a known fact that Stalin attended seminary in Georgia. Obviously, this didn’t work out for the better…

Stalin would have been Russian Orthodox correct?

 

[Apologia100]

Cubsfan:

Stalin would have been Russian Orthodox correct?

Stalin was an avowed atheist, as outlined in the Communist Manifesto and re-confirmed by Vladimir Lenin.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Great, what a post!!

I must say that the link I posted earlier now has an “updated” Sedavacantist link/article on it. That’s new. So visit that link at your own peril! I don’t expect anyone to actually read the article on the death penalty and the Church’s teaching though.

So, what exactly is bad about the death penalty for crimes as God’s Law to the Israelites was clear in? I think Paul affirms it in Romans 13:4

Do you just not like it? I personally wouldn’t want to be stoned or lethally injected, but if I were a criminal, I know from the Gospel that I deserve temporal punishment, typological of eternal punishment.

I’m not a “hang 'em high” advocate, whatever that is. I’m unaware of that school of thought being taught in the Bible. Christ did, however, rebuke the Pharisees by ignoring the Scriptures (Exodus 20:12, 21:17, Lev. 20:9) by their Tradition in Mark 7:10-13. I’m not wanting to get into a Tradition/Scripture discussion here, I’m reading “Not by Scripture Alone” and am aware and myself understand that Christ was not denouncing generic “tradition” but rather tradition that invalidates the Word of God. Scripture and Tradition should lead to God’s Revelation.

Can you tell I’m not wanting a brutal debate. I just want to keep the thread going.

 

[john654]

Hi,
I thought by the title of this thread, “Protestant death-mongers” this was going to be about contraception.

John