Protestant denies purgatory with this verse

  • Thread starter Thread starter smnashla
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

smnashla

Guest
Hi guys,

My mom is a protestant and I converted almost two years ago and she is using this verse to negate the doctrine of purgatory.

2 Corinthians 5:8-9

“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

I think she sees purgatory as a state or place that is still absent from the Lord. Thanks for your responses in advance!
 
I would also like to point out that we are always with God while we are alive, too. After we die we will be with Him also, unless we go to hell. Hell is the only true separation from God, so if one is in purgatory they are still with God.
 
smnashla said:
Hi guys,

My mom is a protestant and I converted almost two years ago and she is using this verse to negate the doctrine of purgatory.

2 Corinthians 5:8-9

“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

I think she sees purgatory as a state or place that is still absent from the Lord. Thanks for your responses in advance!
Click to expand...
It seems to me that you could use the verse in the exact same way to disprove Hell (since it’s neither “in the body” nor “with the Lord”)… except that it isn’t what St. Paul is saying at all.
 
smnashla said:
Hi guys,

My mom is a protestant and I converted almost two years ago and she is using this verse to negate the doctrine of purgatory.

2 Corinthians 5:8-9

“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

I think she sees purgatory as a state or place that is still absent from the Lord. Thanks for your responses in advance!
Click to expand...
I must be missing something.
How does that verse have anything to do with purgatory?
 
Although we choose to please God, we often fall short. Even the “righteous man sins seven times a day.” Is there anything impure that can enter heaven? Purgatory is the final purification for those who have not reached “perfection” while on earth.

The final destiny of the redeemed is to live in heaven eternally with God, where “we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 Jn 3:2). Since God is holy, to be like him we, too, must be holy" (Matt 5:48). Without that holiness, “no one shall see the Lord” (Heb 12:14), for “nothing unclean shall enter” the glory of heaven (Rv 21:27) [Source: Catholic Answer Bible].

The traditional Biblical verse used to support the concept of Purgatory comes from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 which refers to those “who will be saved, but only as through fire.”
 
Frequently, Protestants misremember the verse as “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” and use it against purgatory that way.

It looks as though the mom in this case quoted the verse correctly, but is still reading it to mean the misquoted version.

Usagi
 
Show her this passage.

"But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire. "
  • 1 Cor 3:15
Here, Paul talks about someone who’s works are being judged by fire. These works are described as gold, silver or wood and hay. What brings to mind purification more then gold and silver being refined in fire? The gold and silver gets purified by the fire. Anything combustible gets burned up.

The passage says that If those works are burned up the person is still saved but they suffer loss, as one passing through fire. Where does this occur? Well, it can’t be in hell, since in hell there is no possibility that one can be saved. And, it can’t be in heaven, because in heaven there is no suffering. So there must be somewhere else for this to occur. That is what Catholics call Purgatory or the Final Purification.
 
It’s strange that I don’t find the term, ‘purgatory’ mentioned in scripture, yet I do find the terms, ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ mentioned.
 
InDefense said:
It’s strange that I don’t find the term, ‘purgatory’ mentioned in scripture, yet I do find the terms, ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ mentioned.
Click to expand...
Do you use that same argument to deny the existence of the Trinity and the Bible? Because those words aren’t found in Scripture either. You won’t find the word “Hell” in the Old Testament, for that matter. Yet it still existed, even then.

So while it’s true that the descriptions of Purgatory in Scripture are far from clear, that’s true of Heaven and Hell as well, even in the New Testament.

For example, does the soul ascend to Heaven right away after death, prior to the Last Judgment? Bible-only Protestants have gone both ways. Luther himself taught the doctrine of “soul sleep,” for example. (That doctrine actually is refuted by the passage cited by the OP).
 
InDefense said:
It’s strange that I don’t find the term, ‘purgatory’ mentioned in scripture, yet I do find the terms, ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ mentioned.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit is also never referred to as God in the Bible. Jesus appears to be inferior to the Father in the Bible. God walks in the Garden of Eden in the Bible, etc. The bible is not meant to be read but to be studied. Simply reading the words without reflection is insufficient.
 
Where does he think souls will go?

If you haven’t been bad enough to be condemned to Hell but have a few venial sins against yourself, how can you go to Heaven?

You would need somewhere for the people between a totally sinless soul and a wicked one.
 
Nelka said:
Where does he think souls will go?

If you haven’t been bad enough to be condemned to Hell but have a few venial sins against yourself, how can you go to Heaven?

You would need somewhere for the people between a totally sinless soul and a wicked one.
Click to expand...
One who believes in God will have all forgiven by Christ at heaven’s gate. At least that was what i was told by a non-denom beleiver.
 
It all seems to me a matter of common sense. Sin and God cannot be together, as it is offensive to the Creator. We, as creatures, can never be sinless, so even if we go to Paradise, how do we shake off the last of our earthly existence? It’s like heading into the great banquet, with gold and silver and crystal, and sitting there with greasy hair and dirt on our hands and face that we can’t get off. We have to be cleaned up before being admitted to the wedding banquet.

St. Paul talks about purification in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

*“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” *
 
There could easily be a Bible translation that didn’t include words like Heaven, Hell, soul, spirit, etc.

If every mention of “heaven” or “heavens” were translated literally as “sky”, every mention of Hell or Sheol or Gehenna or the underworld were translated “the lower regions” or “the valley of Gehinnom”, if every “nefesh” in Hebrew were translated as “breath” or “wind” or “breeze” instead of “spirit” or “soul”, you’d have a very similar situation.

There are a lot of verses in the Bible which can be translated as “purge” or “purify” or “prune”, and which used to be seen as very clear references to Purgatory and other justification/sanctification processes. (Daniel 11:35 and John 15:2, for instance.) But nowadays, they aren’t, because they aren’t usually translated and annotated that way. That doesn’t make their use invalid as Purgatory verses; just unfashionable and neglected.

Similarly, there used to be a good deal of attention given to the difference between verses where fire is a hostile image, and where fire is a good image of purification and raging love. Nowadays, not so much. But it’s still obviously an important distinction for all Christians. (And it’s deeply Jewish, since sacrificial offerings often went to God through fire.)
 
InDefense said:
It’s strange that I don’t find the term, ‘purgatory’ mentioned in scripture, yet I do find the terms, ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ mentioned.
Click to expand...
I think it’s even more strange that you trust the Church to get the New Testament Canon right, but think she’s making up stuff when she coins the term Purgatory. Does your Bible possess a divinely inspired table of contents? And if so, what authoritative body determines which books are God-breathed and which aren’t? You can’t simply say something like, “the Holy Spirit said so”. If you cite Church Tradition, then all of a sudden, you must dismiss this whole “Bible Alone” belief, for even Protestants who believe that Tradition is valid, they do not believe that it is inerrant such as Scripture. The problem is that Scripture is a product of Tradition in terms of determining what is and what is NOT God breathed. Can something errant produce something inerrant?
 
PAX VOBISCUM!

Brethren,

There is a certain verse in the Bible that GOD will purify us just like gold and silver. To be able to enter heaven. Any unclean person are not suitable to enter the gates of heaven.:manvspc:

Protestants :bowdown:believes solely to what we call: “SOLA SCRIPTURA” means Salvation through Scripture. They believe what are those written in the bible can save them ALONE which is not advisable.

Let us all remember what the bible says: "NOT Everything here on earth can be understood by our own minds.🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top