Protestant disagreements with their founders.

[Catherine_S]

cheddarsox:

Catherine S,

I have no doubt that the Catholic church has the protection of the Holy Spirit over it. I have no doubt that many Christian churches do.

There are definitely some new churches that claim to be the church Christ established, but that is neither here nor there, anyone can claim whatever they want.

I am not here to take issue with the church, as much as the finger pointing. “Look what those protestants do!!! They can’t even keep their own together…” That sort of thing. Because, the Catholics don’t do any better at it.

In that sense, I think Protestantism is generally more honest. If you don’t agree with the teachings of your church, you leave and find one who you feel has the truth. If your Catholic, you just keep calling yourself Catholic and do your own thing. Then the church keeps calling you Catholic too and brags about its numbers.

Even if you leave, if you were baptised Catholic, they hold claim to you. A strange sort of unity, I have heard it called mystical. I have heard theology which claims that all people on earth are really part of the Catholic church, they are just in ignorance or denial of it, and may still be saved by this mystical relationship through the salvific relationship between Christ and his church.

That is very generous! I mean that sincerely.

This has been my experience as a cradle Catholic. If you disagree with teachings or don’t live by them, you are called things like “Cafeteria Catholic” and scorned, and some will say things like “if you don’t believe what the church teaches…why don’t you just leave?” Then, if you do leave, they say “once a Catholic, always a Catholic. You’re still Catholic…” Hmmm…

I left the Catholic church less over doctrinal issues than over integrity issues. When I was a Catholic, I was a really good Catholic. When issues arose that prayer, study etc couldn’t resolve, I tried to have them answered through the proper means. When I couldn’t get resolution, I left, because I couldn’t see staying if I was going to be a bad Catholic.

People spent many more words on me about leaving, than they ever did trying to help me work through the issues. I guess that losing a team member mattered more than helping me be a good team member.No one cared how I felt or what I believed, as long as I stayed. This reinforced my sense that integrity mattered little to the church.

“Look how many people wear our jersey!” is a statement that falls on skeptical ears with me. I was part of the team, I know, sadly, how little that jersey means. It is not one that a person has to earn, or even want. They just have to be willing to put it on to keep everyone happy.

I keep thinking of the parable…a father had two sons, he asked them to do a task for him, one said yes, but never did it, the other said no, but repented and went and completed the task…Which one did what his father asked?

cheddar

Hello cheddar… I do understand what you have written. Thank you for sharing your heart and your thoughts. I too have seen much within the Church that was disheartening and there were times that I thought about leaving. I did not leave for two reasons one… where would I go and two… I did come to realize that to focus on myself ( for there was still much within me that was also disheartening and still is) others or what is wrong within the Church or outside of the Church was a sure way to loose sight of **what God has done and what God is doing. **It is so easy to fall into negativity and this is never from the Lord.

I began to realize that the Eucharist is and must become more and more central to our lives. The Catholic Church set aside The Year Of The Eucharist to incourage us to contemplate this wonderful mystery and great gift of Jesus Christ so that we might refocus and grow. We all need to take this to heart and to pray for deeper understanding so the Lord will bless us with deeper faith and healing.

Jesus prayed to His Father that we would all be one as He and His Father were one so that the world would believe that the Father had sent Him. He does not fail us but we are failing Him.

The pointing of fingers at the world or at one another by all who call themselves christain begs a need for repentance for **it is we who have allowed, caused in many ways and participate in the condition of the so called secular world and the disunity within Christianity. **I believe that the Lord is trying to teach us and to chastize us in our day.

The Eucharist is His most precious gift to us all and in it lies our renewal.

God Bless You Cheddar,
Catherine

 

[Catherine_S]

RiverRock:

Then you would have to be Catholic!

I stand corrected .

 

[Catherine_S]

O.S. Luke:

Just a reminder - not all Protestants adhere to Sola Scriptura.

O+

The Wesleys were viewed by many as being Jesuit agents in disguise. Their belief in the Real Presence, apostolic succession, the importance of good works, fasting, and their rejection of Calvinistic predestination were seen as a return to Catholic positions. **John resented the accusation that he was being used by the Catholic Church. He said of Catholics, “I wish them well but I dare not trust them.”
**
**During his lifetime John Wesley gave more than 40,000 sermons by traveling more than 250,000 miles on horseback. A prolific writer and an avid reader, his favorite devotional book was the *Imitation of Christ *by Thomas a Kempis. One Catholic scholar said of John Wesley, who died in London in 1791, “Under other circumstances he would have been the founder of a religious order or a reforming pope.”
**

 

[O.S.Luke]

RiverRock:

Then you would have to be Catholic!

Anglicans and Methodists work under the “Three-Legged Stool” of Scripture, Reason, and Tradition rather than sola scriptura. Methodists added Experience to the equation, but otherwise works under this same model. The premise is that in all things, we listen for the deep, quiet voice of God through the filters of scripture, reason, tradition, and experience.

Catherine:

I couldn’t have said what you said about the Wesleys any better. Their ministry and writings were as much the reason I was drawn to a religious order as any.

O+

 

[Mystophilus]

MariaG:

Show me one verse in the Bible that says the bible in and of itself is the sole authority and self-interpreting.

People can say anything. Actually having actual biblical support is another thing.

Anyone can say anything, and thus anyone can claim Scriptural support, as I said last time. If I say it again, will you listen?

You do not seem to be taking account of the fact that reading is not perfect. Simply put, what happens when a person reads the Bible is that they start with certain preconceptions about what is or is not possible. When they encounter a text which contradicts these, they decide that it is allegorical, hyperbolic, or otherwise figurative. Any text which conforms to the preconceptions can be accepted as being literally true. For this reason, some people believe that Jesus literally walked on water, while others take this as merely metaphorical.

Thus, a believer in “sola scriptura” accepts as true those passages which support the idea, and interprets as figurative those which do not. However hard you argue with them, you will not convince them that your belief is true, because their faith in that doctrine is far higher than their faith in you.

There is absolutely no where in the bible where it tells us that Scripture alone is the final authority. Scripture is profitable.

Scripture Catholic lists many Scripture verses that try to “prove” Scripture alone, but none hold up to scrutiny. To come to Scripture alone, one must ignore the other parts of the Bible that say otherwise.

See above.
scripturecatholic:

2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture.

This is linguistically incorrect.

Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

This is ideologically naive: sola scriptura believers consider that the text was written by God, who, being omniscient, knew that it would come to include what Paul was writing.

2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.

This is historically incorrect. As no canon was fixed by the believers at the time of writing, it is not possible to say which books were included within Paul’s idea of “graphe”. A sola scriptura believer, however, would go back to omniscience.

2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul’s reference to the “man of God” who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.

This is linguistically incorrect. “tou theou anthropos” is “man of God”; none of the words for a cleric is used. In Greek, this means any person who belongs to God.

If I, who do not believe in sola scriptura, can so easily refute this, having only bothered with one single verse, how much value would it have towards someone whose preconception is that anything which challenges the sola scriptura doctrine must be wrong?

I really do not think that you are taking sufficient account of what these people believe, and, until you do understand them, you cannot hope to communicate with them.

As to God not coming down to tell us which Church, He did. Right there in Scripture when He tells us the Church will never fail etc. History provides the rest.

It certainly does provide the rest. It provides the fact that, while Jesus established one church and prayed that they would remain united (“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us” - John 17:20-1), humans beings subsequently shattered that unity and have continued in their separatism, creating different churches which prefer pride in their own exclusionary traditions and doctrines (e.g., sola scriptura, filioque), attacking each others’ beliefs, thus making a mockery of the earnest prayer of the one whom they claim as Lord.

 

[Mystophilus]

Unity will come when enough Christians are prepared to accept the possibility that others’ beliefs may also be acceptable to God. As important as the Eucharist is to you, it does not hold such a place for everyone, and it cannot be made to.

Any attempt at unity through imposed uniformity will fail; we have already seen this in communist societies. Unity comes through acceptance, which, unsurprisingly, is the product of loving your neighbour.

 

[Trelow]

Mystophilus:

Unity will come when enough Christians are prepared to accept the possibility that others’ beliefs may also be acceptable to God. As important as the Eucharist is to you, it does not hold such a place for everyone, and it cannot be made to.

Any attempt at unity through imposed uniformity will fail; we have already seen this in communist societies. Unity comes through acceptance, which, unsurprisingly, is the product of loving your neighbour.

I love my neighbor enough the tell them that outside the Church there is no salvation.

God himself came to earth to form the Catholic Church. Who am I to say that Bob Jacks 3rd Church of I’m OK You’re OK Hippie Poo is as good as what Christ himself has created?

Figure out what love is first, then you will know how to love your neighbor.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

God himself came to earth to form the Catholic Church. Who am I to say that Bob Jacks 3rd Church of I’m OK You’re OK Hippie Poo is as good as what Christ himself has created?

Figure out what love is first, then you will know how to love your neighbor.

Amen to that!

 

[cheddarsox]

Catherine S,

I was very devoted to the Eucharist, but, other problems put me in a state where I was no longer able to receive it, even while a practicing Catholic. It was denied to me, because I could not accept some other, very much less important, teachings.

I feel that Catholicism has so much to offer, but has created a maze and many stumbling blocks which keep people away from it.That saddens me.

I could act out of order and receive the Eucharist anyway…but I cannot make myself believe that which I do not believe because the church tells me to. And I cannot go to confession to confess that which I am not truly sorry for. So I am without honest access to the Eucharist, which, as you stated, has such tremendous unifying power.

There have been times I felt the church holds Christ hostage. They withold Him from the needy because not everyone is willing or able to accept, not Christ himself, nor His teachings, but the authority and sometimes obscure teachings and Traditions of Rome. I think the church will have to answer for that.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

scylla:

I can understand why you left, the Church has suffered a lot from lack of understanding or really even caring from a lot of people within it.

I was at a meeting with some parishoners and a nun of my church and someone commented that someone they all knew had left for another church. (some independant church) The nun just shrugged and pretty much said oh well.

This sickened me, why is there so many people who just think that the church is something you choose. From that point on I have been dedicated to asking and answering the questions why are you Catholic? Don’t you want to know more?

Scylla

When I was growing up, I wondered why Catholics didn’t practice the type of outreach that many Protestant churches do. And I was told that since the Catholic church was the True church, it was those people’s job to realize their error, and come home. We weren’t like “them” and had to advertise to fill our pews, etc. People come to Mass for different reasons than Protestants attend their services. etc. etc.

The idea was, if you were so hopelessly misguided as to ever leave…good riddance, until you wisened up, repented and came crawling back. And there was a good bit of snickering and whispering about certain people who had done so, and everyone was very pleased to see how mightily life had humbled them. Not happy they were back, but sort of more “I told you so!”.

And there was a good bit of whispering about “how dare SHE receive communion, she’s seperated from her husband.” that sort of thing.

I still go to Mass every once in a while. I usually attend several services during Holy Week, and spend time hanging with Christ after Holy Thursday service. He’s never once whispered anything nasty, or told me to go away until I can profess to accept all the teachings and Traditions of the church. He’s funny that way…

cheddar

 

[MariaG]

posted by Mystophilus

I really do not think that you are taking sufficient account of what these people believe, and, until you do understand them, you cannot hope to communicate with them.

I was one.

For a fundamentalist Bible alone person, The Bible is God’s inspired word, the whole thing. And truly, once a person actually reads scripture, about Tradition, Oral words, etc., the bible then must contradict itself for Bible alone is not supported.

But this must be done with the Holy Spirit guiding or it means nothing, and as you say the preconceived notions will rear their ugly head. But seeds can be planted.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ComradeAndrei]

It was denied to me, because I could not accept some other, very much less important, teachings.

What were these, praytell? If the Eucharist was denied to you because of them, they most certainly were not “less important”.

I could act out of order and receive the Eucharist anyway…but I cannot make myself believe that which I do not believe because the church tells me to. And I cannot go to confession to confess that which I am not truly sorry for. So I am without honest access to the Eucharist, which, as you stated, has such tremendous unifying power.

Since you didn’t specify just what the problem was, it sounds an awful lot like a matter of disobedience and pride. Do you think you know better than the Church? I’m not trying to be condescending, but that is what your issue sounds like.

There have been times I felt the church holds Christ hostage. They withold Him from the needy because not everyone is willing or able to accept, not Christ himself, nor His teachings, but the authority and sometimes obscure teachings and Traditions of Rome.

The Sacred Tradition of “Rome” are the very teachings of Christ Himself. Why do you believe otherwise?

When I was growing up, I wondered why Catholics didn’t practice the type of outreach that many Protestant churches do. And I was told that since the Catholic church was the True church, it was those people’s job to realize their error, and come home.

We don’t try to get people to join the Church like some protestants do because joining the Church is a major commitment. The Sacramental nature of the Church does not allow for such thing. I’m not going to recruit pew-warmers that just come for the coffee and doughnuts after Sunday Mass. We, as good orthodox Catholics do our best evangelizing work by praying and being ready and willing to do apologetics-not by recruiting. Often it is better to let the person come to the Church on their own impetus, if you twist arms or trick them into the Church they won’t stay when times get rough.

The idea was, if you were so hopelessly misguided as to ever leave…good riddance, until you wisened up, repented and came crawling back. And there was a good bit of snickering and whispering about certain people who had done so, and everyone was very pleased to see how mightily life had humbled them. Not happy they were back, but sort of more “I told you so!”.

I sense a bit of tension here, some sort of personal experience. No, people shouldn’t act like that but who ever said that everybody is perfect or that living the faith is easy?

 

[MariaG]

Mystophilus:

Unity will come when enough Christians are prepared to accept the possibility that others’ beliefs may also be acceptable to God. As important as the Eucharist is to you, it does not hold such a place for everyone, and it cannot be made to.

Any attempt at unity through imposed uniformity will fail; we have already seen this in communist societies. Unity comes through acceptance, which, unsurprisingly, is the product of loving your neighbour.

Unity of belief is what Christ prayed for. Not a false unity that tries to whitewash the truth.

From CA Library catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and **no one else is permitted to partake of it, except **one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (*First Apology **66 [A.D. 151]).

There are other Chursh Fathers, more quotes I could put up, but the first Christians did not accept false beliefs for a sense of false unity.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mickey]

cheddarsox:

When I was growing up, I wondered why Catholics didn’t practice the type of outreach that many Protestant churches do. And I was told that since the Catholic church was the True church, it was those people’s job to realize their error, and come home. We weren’t like “them” and had to advertise to fill our pews, etc. People come to Mass for different reasons than Protestants attend their services. etc. etc.

The idea was, if you were so hopelessly misguided as to ever leave…good riddance, until you wisened up, repented and came crawling back. And there was a good bit of snickering and whispering about certain people who had done so, and everyone was very pleased to see how mightily life had humbled them. Not happy they were back, but sort of more “I told you so!”.

And there was a good bit of whispering about “how dare SHE receive communion, she’s seperated from her husband.” that sort of thing.

I still go to Mass every once in a while. I usually attend several services during Holy Week, and spend time hanging with Christ after Holy Thursday service. He’s never once whispered anything nasty, or told me to go away until I can profess to accept all the teachings and Traditions of the church. He’s funny that way…

cheddar

cheddar my good friend,

Youv’e got to attempt to overcome the bias that has been instilled within you due to the actions and statements of those sinners within the Church who did not properly understand orthodox teaching. Christ’s yoke is easy, but His teachings can be hard.

God bless you,
Mickey

 

[Mickey]

cheddarsox:

There have been times I felt the church holds Christ hostage.

All are welcome to the heavenly banquet. The Eucharist is not a sacrament of exclusion.

cheddarsox:

They withold Him from the needy because not everyone is willing or able to accept, not Christ himself, nor His teachings, but the authority and sometimes obscure teachings and Traditions of Rome.

I’m not sure what you mean by “obscure teachings”. Are you referring to Sacred Tradition? These “obscure teachings” have been obediently observed by Christians for 2000 years.

cheddarsox:

I think the church will have to answer for that.

With all due respect, this is offensive. Since we believe that Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, you are saying that Christ has allowed His Church to teach false doctrine.

Wisdom, be attentive!

 

[savrx]

Mystophilus:

Unity will come when enough Christians are prepared to accept the possibility that others’ beliefs may also be acceptable to God. As important as the Eucharist is to you, it does not hold such a place for everyone, and it cannot be made to.

Any attempt at unity through imposed uniformity will fail; we have already seen this in communist societies. Unity comes through acceptance, which, unsurprisingly, is the product of loving your neighbour.

Certainly “imposed” uniformity will fail, for it is not true uniformity if those imposed upon do not actually believe.

The notion that there is no uniformity is patently false. We, in America, live in THE most broadly educated culture to ever exist. And yet one could literally fill the cavernous innards of a fleet of aircraft carriers with the number of times our various branches of government have re-interpreted the Constitution. Yet today most Americans think there is such a thing as “consensus” on Constitutional law. Quite the contrary. We are only unified in law for the moment, until it gets reinterpreted at a later point for some reason or another.

Contrast that with the verifiably SHOCKING fact that the Catholic Church has absolutely never taught something ex cathedra, only later to reverse that teaching on faith and morals. Even the handful of “instances” anti-catholics use to defeat this claim (all of which are based on faulty notions of what ex cathedra teaching means) prove only that it’s simply miraculous that with dozens of popes in countless political climates and cultural sways that only those few instances can be found!! Over a time period spanning literally 10 times that of our current country’s history; longer than any single “government” has ever stood in the history of the world, the Catholic Church has stood, teaching the Truth.

That is what makes Catholicism different. The evidence of unity is unprecendented.

Protestantism by contrast didn’t even make it to the end of the original Reformers’ lives before splintering. That, my friends, is objective.

 

[Catherine_S]

O.S. Luke:

Anglicans and Methodists work under the “Three-Legged Stool” of Scripture, Reason, and Tradition rather than sola scriptura. Methodists added Experience to the equation, but otherwise works under this same model. The premise is that in all things, we listen for the deep, quiet voice of God through the filters of scripture, reason, tradition, and experience.

Catherine:

I couldn’t have said what you said about the Wesleys any better. Their ministry and writings were as much the reason I was drawn to a religious order as any.

O+

May God continue to bless you much :clapping: !!
.

 

[Catherine_S]

cheddarsox:

Catherine S,

I was very devoted to the Eucharist, but, other problems put me in a state where I was no longer able to receive it, even while a practicing Catholic. It was denied to me, because I could not accept some other, very much less important, teachings.

I feel that Catholicism has so much to offer, but has created a maze and many stumbling blocks which keep people away from it.That saddens me.

I could act out of order and receive the Eucharist anyway…but I cannot make myself believe that which I do not believe because the church tells me to. And I cannot go to confession to confess that which I am not truly sorry for. So I am without honest access to the Eucharist, which, as you stated, has such tremendous unifying power.

There have been times I felt the church holds Christ hostage. They withold Him from the needy because not everyone is willing or able to accept, not Christ himself, nor His teachings, but the authority and sometimes obscure teachings and Traditions of Rome. I think the church will have to answer for that.

cheddar

In some ways Cheddar the Church is very much like a parent… you may love one of your children deeply and bend on many things but when what they are doing is definately out of God’s order and could cause them to lose their very souls it is not only heart breaking, a living nightmare filled with fear of what could or might happen to them if you proceed with the " no" that you know** from within your own heart** God is asking of you as a parent. Trust me for I know, there was a time when I** begged** God to remove my maternal instinct so that I might do what I did not want to do.God did not remove it but he did give me strength and a deeper understanding of what loving another for their sake means. I did what I knew I had to do but** it was one of the heaviest crosses that I was ever asked to carry.** I know to this young man that at that time I did not look even remotely like a christain to him for on the day that I removed his things from our house I saw written on his face and in his eyes a look that reflected betrayal and disbelief. Even thinking of it now brings some of the old fear that I experenced at that time back…for I knew full well that my decision could bring about dire consequences and even death.

God blessed us both and things did turn around…it was not in a day nor a month but this young man is now a real blessing to others. Tomorrow is his birthday and **I thank God for this blessing…**I will celebrate it in a very special way within my heart. For a son who was lost was found and for me this is a little piece of heaven right here.

I do not know where you are or what is keeping you away from Confession and the** Eucharist** but here in lies your healing. I hope and pray that you will find it within your heart to “let go” and to trust God and His Church. God has given us the Church to keep us safe and the teachings are for our protection and I believe for our good. We can not always see this nor do we always believe it but it is true. I will keep you in my prayers…God loves you…do not hold onto anger at the Catholic Church or others cheddar (no matter how justified these feelings may be) turn them all over to Christ. When we meet Him at the foot of the Cross He will never turn away from us. He can and** will** turn everything around.
God Bless You Cheddar,
Shalom,
Catherine