Protestant England is Dead

[Lost_Found]

Yes when the student is ready the teacher will be there.

I just would like it to be the right teacher. I have faith it will be.

 

[ruzz]

England and much of Europe has all but abandoned Christianity. I think Islam is doing ok. But the Euro’s are turing into a secular society.

We need to watch out backs here in the U.S. or we will soon follow.

.

 

[STIOFAN]

ruzz:

England and much of Europe has all but abandoned Christianity. I think Islam is doing ok. But the Euro’s are turing into a secular society.

We need to watch out backs here in the U.S. or we will soon follow.

.

luke 18:13:13 Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican.
12 I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather than the other: because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Terri, pray for us.

 

[teresas1979]

England and much of Europe has all but abandoned Christianity. I think Islam is doing ok. But the Euro’s are turing into a secular society.

We need to watch out backs here in the U.S. or we will soon follow.

Those of us actually IN England generally have the same impression of the US but are neither rude nor presumptious enough to express it. I would not claim to know more about religion in the US than those who live there. What I do know about the US recently, is that they allowed an innocent woman to be starved to death but anymore than that I would not comment upon as I do not know the context of any claims.

In my experience, Islam is a large religion in England because of the christian foundations of a country allowing other nationalities and faiths to make their homes here. Protestant England has never been about the issues most of the protestant world was; the only thing they were protesting was that Henry VIII was not granted an unreasonable annulment because his wife could not produce a son.

 

[Fitz]

teresas1979:

Those of us actually IN England generally have the same impression of the US but are neither rude nor presumptious enough to express it. I would not claim to know more about religion in the US than those who live there. What I do know about the US recently, is that they allowed an innocent woman to be starved to death but anymore than that I would not comment upon as I do not know the context of any claims.

In my experience, Islam is a large religion in England because of the christian foundations of a country allowing other nationalities and faiths to make their homes here. Protestant England has never been about the issues most of the protestant world was; the only thing they were protesting was that Henry VIII was not granted an unreasonable annulment because his wife could not produce a son.

Yes, the comment was rude in my opinion and needn’t have been made. WE can’t throw stones so to speak. We are not on solid ground and we see evidence all around of what I would consider Pagan behavior in American society. I fear unless our young can be influenced more by leaders such as Pope John Paul II, then we are lost. The oldest generation that is now coming into old age here has no wisdom to pass on down. The Baby boomer generation has failed in the religion department.

Please accept my apologies for a previous comment made about Europe. Being Chrisitan should stop us from that.

 

[Steph700]

I wouldn’t go so far to say that Protestant England is dead. I am a convert-in-process, and much of the time I lived abroad in London I attended a really wonderful Anglican church. Well, it was wonderful in the fact that it emphasized the study of theology, was a diverse community, and had an amazing positive impact in central London. Little did that church know that it was preparing me in a way to accept Catholicism. Infant baptism, high regard of communion, and study of theology/church history were never things I grew up with in protestant American. In England, it’s another story. I visited one Anglican church one Sunday and it took me almost half of the service to figure out if it was Anglican or Catholic, that’s how similar the “services” are. There was a portrait of Mary onthe wall, kneelers in the pews. While I’d never go back to that way of worship now that I’ve found the Truth, I have to say that there is a wonderful, vibrant community in protestant evangelical England. It is far from dead.

 

[mean_owen]

Milliardo- these talks between Canterbury and Rome have been going on for quite a while. The talks were broken off most recently after the Bishop Robinson ordination, tho the ordination of women years earlier put a big damper on the deal. I’m sure ABofC Rowan Williams was indeed saddened by the discontinuance of ARCIC. Although he is indeed more liberal than some of the past Archbishops of Canterbury, he is also more Catholic friendly- he’s big on the sacraments, Marian devotion, etc., in a way that some of the more evangelical-leaning guys haven’t been. My guess is that no-one really thought that ARCIC would bring about reunion, but at least we were talking.

Milliardo:
That’s why I’m not surprised at Blair being there. But I was pleased that the archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles attended the Requiem Mass. I also read somewhere that the archbishop of Canterbury–just not sure if it’s the present one–was sad when the talks between the Catholic Church and Anglican church broke off. It’s as if the Anglican church was ready to reconcile (the talks broke off because the Anglican church had then decided to allow women priests).

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

I think it would be fair to say Protestant England and in general Christian Europe is dead. The numbers, attitudes and lifestyles tell us it is.

The Pope often expressed the optimistic thought (prophecy) that it will be the renaissance of Eastern Orthodoxy which will reinvigorate the flagging Christianity of Western Europe. Let us pray that His Holiness’ desire be fulfilled. Amen.

 

[David_Oatney]

teresas1979:

Those of us actually IN England generally have the same impression of the US but are neither rude nor presumptious enough to express it. I would not claim to know more about religion in the US than those who live there. What I do know about the US recently, is that they allowed an innocent woman to be starved to death but anymore than that I would not comment upon as I do not know the context of any claims.

In my experience, Islam is a large religion in England because of the christian foundations of a country allowing other nationalities and faiths to make their homes here. Protestant England has never been about the issues most of the protestant world was; the only thing they were protesting was that Henry VIII was not granted an unreasonable annulment because his wife could not produce a son.

**I’d go so far as to say that if many English Christians have this impression of America, it isn’t far-removed from the truth. **

However, let’s be honest. We are simply not as saecular as England or Europe, thanks be to God. We still have one of the highest rates of church attendance in the Western world. While Europe hovers at 4-6%, with similar numbers for England, we have attendance at around 44%. Still too low, yes, but not signs of an overly saecular nation, not to the point of the former Dowry of Mary.

You are certainly right about the Terri Schiavo case. Remember, though, that her case sparked an uproar and massive protests on her behalf from concerned Catholics and other Christians here. What’s more, I’ll bet you’d be hard pressed to find anyone on this board who supports what happened to Terri or supports that kind of treatment of a person with a disability. I think it is a fair question to ask: If Terri had been in England, would the Labour government there have attempted to protect her, as Governor and President Bush both did? Would the Law Lords have been willing to hear her case (the U.S. Supreme Court would not)? Most importantly of all, would the people of Great Britain have supported such an intervention?

**I do feel the U.S. is headed down a path of saecularization similar to Britain/Europe in the future if this generation coming us is any indication. Frankly, the next generation writ large scares me to death. I guess the good news is that within the Church, the next generation seems to be more orthodox and obedient, so maybe there is hope for the conversion of the world. **

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For the record…I hope Protestant England is dead or is about to be, but not because I wish for England to be irreligious. I’d love to see a religious rebirth in England, I think it would be a real blessing (especially since, in addition ot my Irish anscestry, well publicized on this board, I have an English grandmother who was, rest her soul, of the old school on religion…it was very important for her!). I’d just love to see a Catholic England, rather than a Protestant one.

 

[dcmac]

With all due respect there are a few that are overly sensitive. I did not read malice in anything that was posted about Europe. Let us examine the facts as they are:

1. Europe as a whole, and Western Europe in particular, can not replenish its own populations and by the later third of this century will no longer be European by blood.
2. Church adherence, attendance, charitable giving, and sacramental reception are all down to very low numbers in Europe in general and in Western Europe in particular.
3. The rise of European economic prosperity runs parallel with the fall in European Christianity.
4. The admittance of Mohammedans en masse by European nations in addition to their own religious, cultural and genetic declines are a recipe for a new Europe, one that will see its death throws be between secular Europeans and Mohammedan Immigrant Europeans.

For goodness sake… France, the eldest daughter of the Church and pearl of Europe, will cease being French by blood and Christian by creed at the current rate of decline by the middle to later third of this century. If that isn’t a clear indication of where Europe is… I don’t know what is. Even the traditonally Christian nations of Ireland, Spain, and Poland are now more secular than Christian.

In truth, as it stands now, Europe is dead. When one can not replenish its own numbers one is going to die out. When one prides itself on the ousting of its religious foundation (Christianity), it is going to cease to be Christian. Period. Europe is for all intents and purposes a dead civilization.

Does this make me a mean person for stating the obvious facts? No it doesn’t in and of itself. If I wanted Europe to be dead I would be guilty of a great slap in the face. I think the same holds for the above couple of posters. Simply stating facts and asking relevant questions is not mean. It is the intention of the statement that would make it mean and I didn’t read that either of the above posters wanted our European cousins to be in this predicament… only that they were.

Now, the same argument can be made for the U.S.A. That is to say that while we are not as far along the path of destruction as our European cousins we are definitely on the same road. The U.S.A. will wind up just like Europe if we continue on the same path. The only real difference between Europe and the U.S.A. is the state of progress of secularization and depopulation.

And, teresas1979, one from Europe need not lecture us across the pond on life issues. Given the abhorrent history of Europe’s life issues of the past and current century from Lenin’s Communism to Hitler’s Nazism to Stalin’s Communism to today’s horrors of the Netherlands Europe is the leader in the sort of life issues we in America now find ourselves in with Terri’s and others cases.

Europe will be Christian again when she answers the call of her ancestors and reconciles to God and His Holy Church. Until the Europeans are willing to recognize this and act on it accordingly there is little hope. Yet, with God all things are possible and at this point it is going to take a miracle of near Resurrection proportions to save Europe. I pray He will. For I too trace my blood back to Europe.

 

[teresas1979]

I think part of it is that for me, England IS Catholic. Most of the people I know here (from where I grew up) are Catholic and so the country is Catholic from my own experience. Where I live now is largely Anglican but my boyfriend is Anglican and he says that the country is predominantly Catholic too.

I have no idea what would happen here in the event of the tragedy of Terri Schiavo, I simply used her as an example of what us Brits see come out of the US and how it warps our opinion and that we must not use that as prejudice. Too many people make judgements they are not qualified to make. I was trying to illustrate this by pointing out that if you do not live there, you are not as capable of assessing the situation.

BTW Fitz, thank you for your kind apology. I can get irritated when people seem to jump down our throats because there are problems in our society. We are trying to make it better but it’s not meant to be easy

 

[teresas1979]

And, teresas1979, one from Europe need not lecture us across the pond on life issues. Given the abhorrent history of Europe’s life issues of the past and current century from Lenin’s Communism to Hitler’s Nazism to Stalin’s Communism to today’s horrors of the Netherlands Europe is the leader in the sort of life issues we in America now find ourselves in with Terri’s and others cases.

You have proven my point. I was asking that Terri Schiavo’s case NOT be used as a prejudice against people in the US. What you have done is to say that the country in which I live is not christian because of atrocities committed by others (none of which actually took place here and all of which are or have been condemned by my country) whilst I said that the same SHOULD NOT be said of your country which allowed a very recent atrocity to take place and does not appear to be doing enough to prevent the same happening again. I was not lecturing the US on their Christianity, I actually said I would not do so as it would be unfair as I do not live there. But I expect the same courtesy to be extended back. In my experience, Britain is very Christian and I would expect mine and others opinions who live here to hold more weight than statistics…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Contarini:

Oh how convenient a sentiment for American arrogance–and how utterly un-Christian. .

Edwin

Why does it have to be “American” arrogance in your opinion. Or is that your own European arrogance shining through the cracks in your “real” Christianity.

To paraphrase the old addage, People who live on glass continents should not throw stones.

 

[Franze]

Mass atendance in Europe isn´t 4-6%, in France, very secularized is 10%, in Spain 20% and in Italy almost 40%, in Poland is 56%, more than US, and well, listening how the protestant churches fail the moral in US and they are more responsible for having children than catholics in US, we have to be realistic, in all places there are problems, who will be sinless, throw the first stone.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

teresas1979:

Those of us actually IN England generally have the same impression of the US but are neither rude nor presumptious enough to express it.

Oh! The BBC boards and moderators are frightfully anti-American! :bigyikes: To the extent that I have refused to post there. And to boot, the Christian Topic Message Board is by and large not only anti-Catholic but also anti-Christian. The hate posts are in my opinion atrocious and, frankly, illegal. I came out of hiding only for the Terri Schiavo discussions.

teresas1979:

What I do know about the US recently, is that they allowed an innocent woman to be starved to death

All hek broke loose. There will be a day of reckoning long remembered in American history, possibly akin to major changes in the Constitution. It ain’t over yet.

Now compare that to England. I actually centralized on a BBC forum all the information and articles that CA posters retrieved. A few of us tried to stir up some interest on the BBC boards about Terri and about the question of euthanasia.

Ha! One BBC poster took a brief interest which lasted all of one day and then we never heard from him again. The others made outrageously high-handed claims which were utterly and shamelessly unresearched. They didn’t even bother to read the information which I had centralized for their benefit on a BBC board on which the mods did permit links to be posted.

No no no. Pot? Kettle? Mote? Log? This is not the time for Catholics to be divisive among nations.

Canada’s response to Terri by the way was absolutely appalling. I got one reply on one Canadian Catholic board saying that that person didn’t think Canadians could comment on American law. I got a buck-pass from a Canadian bishop and from a Canadian pro-life organization. Disgraceful!

To say that America will follow in Europe’s footsteps by becoming secular doesn’t follow. Americans are, if anything, history-conscious. America was founded on the backs of those who were escaping religious persecution in Europe.

Canada would do well to take notes too (but we won’t). One of the central reasons we remained autonomous from the U.S. was the fear of anti-Papists south of the border.

Regardless of what faith a person cleaves to, it is wise to remember what JPII said: “An attack on the Church is inevitably an attack on the human being.” :yup: We have seen this. The Catholic Church is not only a defender of the Christian faith, it is a defendor of all faith (as JPII so eloquently illustrated) and particularly a defendor of religious freedom and human rights.

As for Henry VIII: he had syphyllus. That is why he had so much trouble siring a son. Yet he got away with blaming the Catholic Church for his troubles. The cheek! Some body of theology that was!

 

[teresas1979]

Hi Ani

I’m sorry that the BBC boards have shown such disrespect to you. I have never been able to access them and largely prefer it here anyway It just gets irritating when people judge what they (generally) do not know about and I was highlighting Terri as a reason NOT to judge the US even though many people will. It is difficult to keep an open mind about what happens elsewhere when the news and statistics present a bias but when (Catholic) people with first hand experience say that it is not the case I would tend to believe them over those with an agenda in the media.

I did not mean to infer that people here are any less judgemental, but that we ought to be and that as Christians we should be wary of pointing the finger too soon. Personally, I find Catholicism to be pretty strong here (less so where I am actually living now) so I find the stats people show to be misleading at best.

I guess I should be saying sorry for any finger pointing I may have done of my own. I am sad that people have an IMO warped view of a country I love and I feel compelled to defend it. The city in which I was raised was destroyed in WWII and it was the Irish Catholic immigrants who rebuilt her. These are my roots of which I am very proud so I guess I have over reacted because I felt this was being threatened.

 

[David_Oatney]

teresas1979:

I think part of it is that for me, England IS Catholic. Most of the people I know here (from where I grew up) are Catholic and so the country is Catholic from my own experience. Where I live now is largely Anglican but my boyfriend is Anglican and he says that the country is predominantly Catholic too.

I have no idea what would happen here in the event of the tragedy of Terri Schiavo, I simply used her as an example of what us Brits see come out of the US and how it warps our opinion and that we must not use that as prejudice. Too many people make judgements they are not qualified to make. I was trying to illustrate this by pointing out that if you do not live there, you are not as capable of assessing the situation.

BTW Fitz, thank you for your kind apology. I can get irritated when people seem to jump down our throats because there are problems in our society. We are trying to make it better but it’s not meant to be easy

Teresas;
** I’ll agree that there are more PRACTICING Catholics in England than PRACTICING Protestants. In this sense, there is certainly hope that at some point in the (distant) future, there is a chance for a rebirth of Catholic England…with a Catholic majority in Parliament and a Catholic crown. (While we’re at it, maybe we ought to demand our beautiful Abbey back that the Protestants have desecrated.)**

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Realistically, England is presently neither Catholic nor Protestant, it is a saecular state. Any nation that would allow the things which Britain has allowed in law cannot rightly be called Christian. In the U.S. on the other hand, Congress passed no law legalizing abortion. They would not have dared to do so. Abortion was made legal only because of a court decision.

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Historically, England has been Protestant for the last 500 years. Many years ago, people went to church, people cared. They sang hymns and they read bibles, and God was very real to them. My experiences with many Englishmen now have included meeting several who called themselves C of E who didn’t believe in Hell and at least two who denied that Christ literally, physically rose from the dead. Such seems to be the state of British religion. Sadly, the Catholic Church in England isn’t doing much to win souls en masse. That I can see from my limited view, there is not an organized effort to bring secular, churchless Britain home to Rome. Sure, some people are converting…but I think it is a fair question to ask: Why isn’t the Church in Britain trying to win over the ENTIRE country…why are they merely allowing the Muhammedians (and others) to march in without, in charity, challenging them?

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I want you to know that I don’t say these things to pick on merry old England, and I’d be willing to bet that most others here aren’t either. Indeed, I recognize that in terms of evangelization, the Church in America has many of the same challenges that the Church in Britain has. I believe that in both cases, the Church needs to stand up for what is true. Rather than just talk about “tolerating” everyone else, we have to stand for the reality that Christ is truly “the way, the truth, and the life.” If we believe that Christ is the way to salvation, if this is our faith, and it is…then we need to proclaim the Gospel as if the souls of our nations depended on it. After all, they do.

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[Ani_Ibi]

Ok Teresas and David. Let us not linger in the problem but have faith that we can help each other with the solution. We have problems in Canada, the U.S., and Britain. As we have seen during the Fight for Terri, we can work on the same team. It is critical that we work on the same team.

There are enough differences in the culture and in government between the three countries to be exquisitely useful to us. It gives us flexibility and helps us to think outside the box. We share a common enemy: secular humanism aka the culture of death. My friend Pondero likes to point out the many old village churches in England which remind us of a once faithful people.

England has an election soon and so does Canada. You American posters can help us both by giving us support, prayer, advice, and by deluging the discussion boards and the media. We are God’s citizens first and citizens of king and country second. Let us be good soldiers in the battle to protect the sanctity of life.

Agreed?

 

[teresas1979]

I’m 100% agreed Ani. It’s voting where we can make the single biggest difference the easiest. I am not allowed to vote in Sheffield because of a mistake leaving us off the electoral roll until it was too late (mid Feb they closed the lists and wrote to us after the deadline to let us know )but it looks like I will now be in Coventry (where I presume I still can vote) on election day. I will look into it this weekend but I think I must be on the electoral roll there still because that’s the last place I voted.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Teresas, in a provincial election here (not the most recent one) the Conservatives left millions of people off the lists, then lied to them about how they could get back onto the lists, and then people lined up at the polling stations to vote the Conservatives out of power. They were told one after another that they could not vote.

I took the officials aside and explained the disinformation campaign. I said that unless that official phoned head office immediately the people who had been arbitrarily disinfranchised would start rioting. I pointed at them and asked the official if she disagreed with my assessment of the situation. She called head office right away and they sent people to start registering people properly.

It was too little too late. There were riots at several polls. The Head of the Elections Office resigned and there was a big stink. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to protect your freedom. This is not comfortable among many English people and indeed it is not comfortable among many Canadian people. We are shy and don’t like fusses.

Insist on your right to vote. If you are refused, call your member of parliament. If you are refused call the media. Keep calling people until you have a piece of paper saying you can vote. Believe me, many politicians will stop at nothing to increase their power, including cutting normal, good people off at the knees.

In Canada right now we have the Sponsorship Scandal. It is a long story, but it is essentially about earmarking money (lots of it) to protect Canadian unity. What actually happened was kickback on a massive scale at a time when many Canadians were begging for work and begging for homes. We like to think that the people we elect in our democracies will not steal from us, will not lie to us, will not degrade us to the extent where we barely recognize ourselves. But they will and they do.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.