Protestant England is Dead

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Something to think about for those of us interested in the revival of Europe:

Benedict XV was a pope who was known for his warning to Europe of “suicide” in light of the politics and the day. These politics led to the advent of WWI and the beginning of the death of Europe. Cardinal Ratzinger has repeatedly railed against the secularization of Europe. He has repeatedly reminded Europe that it is a Christian continent and that she needs to come full circle to her Christian roots. Further, he went so far as to speak against allowing the Mohammedan non-European nation of Turkey into the EU because of its historical and contemporary treatment of Christians in Turkey and in European Greece.
It is obvious that Pope Benedict XVI is calling to mind the previous Benedicts attempt to warn against the suicide of Europe. Benedict XV was known as a pope of peace and fraternal chastisement to his fellow Europeans. I think this is very important for Europe. Now it is up to Europe to respond.

For those who are seeking a rebirth of Europe, this is exactly the man you should want as the Supreme Pontiff. I am thankful for his election. I will celebrate his election as one of opportunity for Europe to become Christian again, for the love he has for the poor, for the reformation of the reformation of the liturgy that he espouses, and because he is a gifted writer and thinker… reminds me of the previous pope in so many ways… things that make you go hmmm. 🙂
 
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Contarini:
Oh how convenient a sentiment for American arrogance–and how utterly un-Christian. To write any person or culture off is one of the greatest sins you can commit.

Edwin
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I love angry Europeans. It’s not arrogance. Europe is a dying civilization. You’re not breeding. You’ve embraced euthanasia and socialism. Your churches are empty. Writing off Europe does not mean casting you away, simply accepting losses much like we’ve been forced to accept for 1400 years that muslims hold the deed to the holy land.

There is simply no hope the faith will be revived on that continent. I don’t say it is impossible for God to achieve something there, simply observing the present course being followed.

On another note, there was quite a bit of defensiveness in your post. Europeans are hyper sensitive to the fact that they live in a post-Christian reality that has sapped their vitality, greatness and stature and left you with nothing else but 2nd rate power status and 10% unemployment across the continent. I’m not arrogant. I’m just not blind.

Denile, not just a river in Egypt anymore is it?
 
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jaydog77:
I love angry Europeans. It’s not arrogance. Europe is a dying civilization. You’re not breeding. You’ve embraced euthanasia and socialism. Your churches are empty. Writing off Europe does not mean casting you away, simply accepting losses much like we’ve been forced to accept for 1400 years that muslims hold the deed to the holy land.

There is simply no hope the faith will be revived on that continent. I don’t say it is impossible for God to achieve something there, simply observing the present course being followed.

On another note, there was quite a bit of defensiveness in your post. Europeans are hyper sensitive to the fact that they live in a post-Christian reality that has sapped their vitality, greatness and stature and left you with nothing else but 2nd rate power status and 10% unemployment across the continent. I’m not arrogant. I’m just not blind.

Denile, not just a river in Egypt anymore is it?
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Is this post assuming Contarini is European?

GKC
 
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GKC:
Is this post assuming Contarini is European?

GKC
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It looks like it.​

I’m very grateful to Edwin for his remarks, for it seems to me that USA Christians are in no position is to lecture us here, and that we are in no position to lecture you 🙂 ##
 
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dcmac:
theresas1979,

You still have not addressed the very real facts I laid out. Statistics are very real… that is why educated people in educated sciences use them with regularity. Are they absolute? No. But, they do point us to the truth. And the truth for Europe as a whole, and including merry old England, is very grave indeed.

You can not replenish your own numbers. You are already in the middle of negative population growth. It is only offset by immigration. Add to this the fact that church adherence, let alone attendance, is so low as to be negligible in many places… statistically speaking of course… and it is a recipe for disaster.

Do we really need to drag in the Vatican’s own insight on this of a year or so ago? Do not take my word for it. Look around you. You are, as a European Christian, a very small minority in your own continent and country. Soon (a few decades) Mohammedans will outnumber you and at that point you will be the minority to both European secularists – who are at a negative population growth – and European Mohammedans who are at a positive population growth.

The death throws for Europe will be between the European Secularists and the European Mohammedans. The European Christian – be they Prod, Dissenter, Evang, Non-denom, or CC – will be of so little consequence that it really will not matter in the overall life of Europe at that point.

Of course this is if all things remain the same. With God nothing is impossible and the true Europe – the Christian Europe – can make a comeback… but it does not look very good my friend. What Europe needs most – and I hate to say this, but there is historical evidence to back this – is a terrible calamity that forces it to come to grips with its own spiritual and physiological mortality before it is too late, which isn’t too far in the future at the rate of negative population growth that the whole of Europe is in the middle of.

Of course the more the Europeans place their collective heads in the sand and pretend it is all still what it once was the more things remain the same and the more true the statement of “Europe is dead” rings true - sadly. Until you and every man jack one of you starts recognizing your own mortality there is no hope. What Europe needs most in this world is open eyes, open minds, open hearts, and hope and that will only come at the hands of a calamity… the kind we have seen off and on historically in Europe for 2 millennium… or a major miracle of near Resurrection proportions. Extreme highs or lows are the only way that people are motivated to grow… sadly.

And, as I said already, America is heading down the same path as our European cousins. The only major difference is that you are further down the road than we are. So please do not think this is simply Euro-bashing. I long for a Christian Europe. It would be nice to see our cousins be true to their heritage…
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Ah, but Alas! We now have the Great Enforcer on the Throne of Peter, who has taken the name of one of the Patrons of Europe. I don’t think Benedict XVI is going to give up on Europe without a long, protracted fight. The results of the Conclave have given me great reason to be optimistic that Catholic Europe is not yet dead.
 
O.S. Luke:
If the New York Times had accurate information in its April 11th edition, Catholicism as a whole is growing outside of Europe, just as the Protestant Church is. My own United Methodist Church is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa.

In the conclave held in 1903, 98% of the Cardinals were from Europe (61% from Italy alone) and only 2% were from North America. In the conclave to be held in April 2005, 117 Cardinals will be eligible to vote. 50% will be from Europe with a 17% share from Italy. The Cardinals from North America will make up 12% of the total. Notice how the rest of the Cardinals cover the entire globe with 18% from Latin America, 9% from Asia, 9% from Africa, and 2% from Oceania.

Now… am I missing something? Or is the representation of cardinals not necessarily a representatiion of the Church’s presence?

O+
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The representation of cardinals in 1903 didn’t reflect the distribution of the CC well, because a lot of Catholics were outside Europe even by then. A problem is, that the cardinals were originally not intended to represent the Church outside Rome in any case - they were the priests attached to certain “title churches” in Rome, chosen to advise Rome’s bishops. The more the Church spread and developed, the greater grew the discrepancy between their number (fixed at 70 in 1588) and the needs of the Church.​

In a Church which has members in so many different countries, there is certain to be a discrepancy between the spread of the Church, & the number of cardinals - what complicates things is that Rome is only the largest Church of several Catholic Churches; it is not the whole CC. So there is a delicate balance to be kept between those elements in the Catholic Church worldwide, and the Church in Rome, and the Roman Church and Rite with the elements peculiar to it - which cardinals used to be, until a few cardinals of other Catholic Churches were chosen ##
 
Such negativity is flowing about Europe. Attitudes like “I’m just telling it how it is” fixes no problems. Funny how this Europe that is dead to Christianity keeps sending Texas a number of priests to help out (Particularly from Ireland and Poland, and YES recently ordained priests).

Do you ever wonder where these statistics are coming from? Did anyone here go and tour Europe to investigate the level of “Christian activity”?

The answer is as simple as something we as Americans deal with daily. The MEDIA supplies us with these numbers. They increasingly look for and promote the fall of the Church. They rejoice in any study that will show that as well. Not to say there are not problems, but that it is probably exaggerated. The fact that the media spoon feeds it to us does not help.

We must keep optimistic; we must keep praying. For our brothers and sisters in Europe, as well as everywhere. God only knows we need the prayers as much as they do.

Kyle
 
Gottle of Geer:
In a Church which has members in so many different countries, there is certain to be a discrepancy between the spread of the Church, & the number of cardinals - what complicates things is that Rome is only the largest Church of several Catholic Churches; it is not the whole CC. So there is a delicate balance to be kept between those elements in the Catholic Church worldwide, and the Church in Rome, and the Roman Church and Rite with the elements peculiar to it - which cardinals used to be, until a few cardinals of other Catholic Churches were chosen
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It’s starting to sound like the Protestant Church… 😦

O+
 
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GKC:
Is this post assuming Contarini is European?

GKC
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Actually my passport says I am, although I’ve lived in the U.S. most of my life.

Edwin
 
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jaydog77:
I love angry Europeans. It’s not arrogance.
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Whether or not you’re arrogant, the first statement indicates that you have even worse problems than arrogance. To love to arouse anger in others is a fearful spiritual state.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
Actually my passport says I am, although I’ve lived in the U.S. most of my life.

Edwin
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Notice how I cautiously I worded it? And you the 2nd oldest of my net acquaintances, too.

GKC
 
Kyle, welcome, now to your post:

“Such negativity is flowing about Europe.”
Sometimes the truth is a negative. Like when my uncle died. It was negative, but that did not change the fact that he was dead.

“Attitudes like “I’m just telling it how it is” fixes no problems.”
Did you read further as to how these problems could/would be fixed by the same people who pointed out the problems? Or did you fail to read that part of the comments? Or are you simply ignoring it for a reason? :confused:

“Funny how this Europe that is dead to Christianity keeps sending Texas a number of priests to help out (Particularly from Ireland and Poland, and YES recently ordained priests).”
Funny? No. Queer? Yes… given their lack of priests and seminarians – and no not from the media, but from the Vatican itself!

“Do you ever wonder where these statistics are coming from?”
No. They come from the Vatican and the local bishop’s conferences themselves… I tend to trust the Vatican on such matters… call me crazy. 😉

“Did anyone here go and tour Europe to investigate the level of “Christian activity”?”
Been to Europe many times, but never to investigate anything…mostly on pilgrimage and to visit with cousins in Ireland.

“The answer is as simple as something we as Americans deal with daily. The MEDIA supplies us with these numbers.”
Funny… I thought that the Vatican was giving us their own numbers… I was not aware that the Vatican got their numbers from the media… maybe they better rethink that policy… seems dangerous…😉

“They increasingly look for and promote the fall of the Church. They rejoice in any study that will show that as well.”
All kidding aside this is very true. That is why I do not bother with getting my info from them… go to the source.

“Not to say there are not problems, but that it is probably exaggerated.”
Only if the Vatican itself is exagerating it… of course that would beg the question as to why the Vatican would portray their numbers so badly if things weren’t that bad…

“The fact that the media spoon feeds it to us does not help.”
I would recommend leaving the media table and being spoon- fed from the source itself… the Vatican and other credible Catholic sources. 🙂

“We must keep optimistic; we must keep praying.”
OK, but the patient must be willing to recognize the problem before he can get better. The patient can not afford to bury his head in the sand and pretend the problem is not very real, for if he does he will die very soon. If the patient does not recognize he is sick and therefore does not get treatment we can not be optimistic about his outcome… 😦

“For our brothers and sisters in Europe, as well as everywhere. God only knows we need the prayers as much as they do.”
Amen!!! America is on the same path to destruction… we are simply in the shadows of our European cousins who are farther ahead on this road… that being said it does not negate the fact that either Europe, or ourselves, are in fact on that road.
 
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jaydog77:
It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope
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Would Our Father “write them off” or would he welcome His Prodigal son back with open arms and a party? I put my trust in the Divine Mercy of my Lord. There is hope, Ministering to Europe isn’t* exactly* feeding pearls to swine. I just pray American Catholics continue on their conversion to holiness. We are becoming more and more persecuted here and have attacks from all fronts, including the seditive of materialism, the war of forced secularism, and the mockery of much of the media and government… The lack of Catholic Religious Education, Sometimes it seems we are standing in the balance between a culture of death and a culture of life, we aren’t too far behind Europe, but there is much hope in the Lord. It may get worse before it gets better. Relative Morality, secularism and a fascination with the occult scratches at our door, our youth knows the words to vulgar songs better than Scripture, and our public schools teach them a twisted morality. They know the Osborne family better than the Holy Family. Every vote, every voice, every prayer is a battle cry to redeem our culture and our Catholic Faith in America. I only hope the Church never decides to “write us off.” I trust it never will.
 
dcmac,

I had no idea I was to be evaluated at that level of detail.

However, I think you seemed to catch the main points. There is negativity. Sometimes it’s nice to bring some positive points to the conversation, despite the fact that the Faith in Europe is declining. I do not dispute that.

Although that was about the level of detail I was aiming for, I suppose we can go further now. To begin, the word optimism is not synonymous with ignorance; it does not mean overlooking or dodging the problem, either.

Many times people we see titles like “sharp declines in the number of seminarians”. Europe, particularly Ireland and Poland, once had approximately one in 10 Catholic men go into the seminary. We will most likely never see those numbers again. A sharp decline from that figure can still leave you at a decent head count. This is perhaps an isolated example, but I think many people base their statements off of headlines like this. My previous point was not that the numbers regarding declines in Europe are inaccurate. The media wants to tell us 20 times a day, which is unneccessary and at times overbearing. The headlines have an underlying tone whispering, “Everyone is giving up on the Catholic Church.”

I simply wish to pick out the positive, and not let these facts and headlines bog me down. The few remaining faithful (however few that may be) will revive the Church in Europe, along with pope Benedict 16. My optimism allows to me to believe that wholeheartedly.

Thomas Edison was frustrated when he couldn’t find a material suitable to work as a filament for his soon-to-be invention the light bulb. One naive reporter at the time asked him, “So, how does it feel to fail in 500 attempts?” Thomas quickly replied, “I most certainly did not fail. I have discovered 500 materials that will NOT work as light filaments.” Optimism prevailed; he soon discovered a material to complete his invention.

May God bless you.
Kyle

PS Neither you nor I could seem to come up with an answer as to why priests are coming here to serve in parishes. Does anyone else know why Europe can send us these priests? (most excellent priests, I might add)
 
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kartho:
dcmac,

I had no idea I was to be evaluated at that level of detail.

However, I think you seemed to catch the main points. There is negativity. Sometimes it’s nice to bring some positive points to the conversation, despite the fact that the Faith in Europe is declining. I do not dispute that.

Although that was about the level of detail I was aiming for, I suppose we can go further now. To begin, the word optimism is not synonymous with ignorance; it does not mean overlooking or dodging the problem, either.

Many times people we see titles like “sharp declines in the number of seminarians”. Europe, particularly Ireland and Poland, once had approximately one in 10 Catholic men go into the seminary. We will most likely never see those numbers again. A sharp decline from that figure can still leave you at a decent head count. This is perhaps an isolated example, but I think many people base their statements off of headlines like this. My previous point was not that the numbers regarding declines in Europe are inaccurate. The media wants to tell us 20 times a day, which is unneccessary and at times overbearing. The headlines have an underlying tone whispering, “Everyone is giving up on the Catholic Church.”

I simply wish to pick out the positive, and not let these facts and headlines bog me down. The few remaining faithful (however few that may be) will revive the Church in Europe, along with pope Benedict 16. My optimism allows to me to believe that wholeheartedly.

Thomas Edison was frustrated when he couldn’t find a material suitable to work as a filament for his soon-to-be invention the light bulb. One naive reporter at the time asked him, “So, how does it feel to fail in 500 attempts?” Thomas quickly replied, “I most certainly did not fail. I have discovered 500 materials that will NOT work as light filaments.” Optimism prevailed; he soon discovered a material to complete his invention.

May God bless you.
Kyle

PS Neither you nor I could seem to come up with an answer as to why priests are coming here to serve in parishes. Does anyone else know why Europe can send us these priests? (most excellent priests, I might add)
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IMHO, we should be grateful for living in difficult times, because an outwardly prosperous Church can all too easily become self-satisfied, and ascribe her blessings to herself, and not to God, on Whom alone she depends. And such self-satisfaction is deeply unChristian; a Church in that condition, is riding for a fall - and the more God has exalted her, the further she is able to fall when she does. I’m only grateful not to have been a US Catholic in 1970 - the contrast with the praise for the US Church in the 1950s must have been painful.​

A Church that has been brought low can go nowhere but up. God is always at work in the Church - not just when she is conscious of this, but in all conditions. The Church does not need to be prosperous - prosperity may well have disastrous effects for her, as it did for the Israelites. What she does need, is the Presence of Christ within her; if He were absent, she would be helpless and useless. So the Church in a country cannot be written off - we have to trust, not in our power, but in the Infinite power of Christ and His Cross; and that means not going by appearances.

Some people seem to have forgotten that hope is only hope if it does not depend on outward circumstances, but is exercised in spite of them 🙂 Things are in a bad way - so we should be full of hope in God. ##
 
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