Protestant Eucharist (Thanksgiving)

[Darryl_B]

I am reading a book titled “Bread of Life and Cup of Joy” written by Horton Davies 1993. In the book is a chapter “The Eucharist as Sacrifice” in which the author has a rather positive observation that many Protestant churches (though not all) seem to be developing a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sacrifical nature of the Eucharist, when in the past it was avoided, or reduced.

I would appreciate hearing from any Protestant observations of how the sacrfical nature of the Eucharist is manifest, or not being manifest in their liturgical practices.

 

[Billy_Buescher]

In talking to a Baptist Bible study teacher, which has a Degree from a Bible college, the Lords Supper was the topic of discussion.

He seems like a firm believer in using wine, verse’s grape juice in the Lords Supper. He cannot convince the Church to change, and shows some disappointment in this practice. He also believe that there is something unseen happening at the Lords supper;

1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Since they believe that they go my Bible alone, I ask the question where in the Bible does it say that grape juice is acceptable; as they do not baptize infants because that is not in the Bible. They were going to have the Lords Supper later in the week and I ask him, what he was going to do since they were using grape juice and that seems to me that they are mocking what Christ did at the Last supper.

His only response was the he will pray for Gods’ blessing.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

In the Anglican Church I attended,(less protestant of them all but still protestant) There were supposedly occasions where a non-Anglican person, like a service worker was in the Church and did not pay respect to the Eucharist(genuflect or bow) and were knocked on their posterior by a unseen force.

I heard that from the Priest who is very credible so I believe it. It’s one of the reasons they all warn you before you walk into the Church for the first time that genuflection or bowing is a requirement, not a suggestion.

 

[GEddie]

Interesting, as the “conventional wisdom” is that in these faith bodies, due to lack of apostolic succession, the bread does not become “body” at all.

Of course, even if it is not His body, the Spirit can use it to lead them to the truth.

ICXC NIKA

 

[susanlo]

I have never heard of communion being called or considered a sacrifice at any of the churches I have been at. We consider it a time to remember Jesus’ sacrifice for us. It is not believed to be a propitiatory or atonement sacrifice at my church. We believe that we are saved and forgiven when we accept Jesus. Any future sins are forgiven at the moment we confess the sins to God.

I have recently learned of something called a Todah Sacrifice. I have never heard this term used at my church, however it does sound very similar to my understanding of communion. The link below gives a more detailed description, but basically it is a thank offering given after one has been rescued or “saved” from great peril such as disease or in battle. It was used in the OT and was thought to be the only sacrifice that would continue after the Messiah. The sacrifice consists of a lamb, bread and wine. As Christians we believe we were saved when accepted Jesus, therefore we have been rescued from peril. We don’t have lamb at our communion, however we do reflect on Jesus’ sacrifice (lamb) and consume bread and wine (or grape juice for some after the temperance movement). I found learning about the Todah Sacrifice very interesting.

catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/from-jewish-passover-to-christian-eucharist-the-story-of-the-todah.html

So, if someone says the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice for atonement of sin, I would disagree. If someone says that the Eucharist (thanksgiving) is a Todah (thanksgiving) sacrifice, then I would probably agree.

Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho, approx. 150AD:
(This is a written dialogue between Justin Martyr and a Jewish priest who may be real or may be fictionalized for his writing purposes.)
“Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind, whose name the high priests of your nation and your teachers have caused to be profaned and blasphemed over all the earth.”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

[Padres1969]

I am reading a book titled “Bread of Life and Cup of Joy” written by Horton Davies 1993. In the book is a chapter “The Eucharist as Sacrifice” in which the author has a rather positive observation that many Protestant churches (though not all) seem to be developing a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sacrifical nature of the Eucharist, when in the past it was avoided, or reduced.

I would appreciate hearing from any Protestant observations of how the sacrfical nature of the Eucharist is manifest, or not being manifest in their liturgical practices.

Well being that my church is High Church Anglican/Anglo-Catholic, the sacrifice of the mass manifests itself not too differently than it does in a Catholic mass. The words of consecration specifically mention the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving on more than one occasion, and that the two species are the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Interesting prophetic passage:

Malachi 1:11King James Version (KJV)

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

There’s one Church I know of that has Masses all day, everyday, with incense and a pure offering around the globe…

 

[benhur]

I am reading a book titled “Bread of Life and Cup of Joy” written by Horton Davies 1993. In the book is a chapter “The Eucharist as Sacrifice” in which the author has a rather positive observation that many Protestant churches (though not all) seem to be developing a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sacrifical nature of the Eucharist, when in the past it was avoided, or reduced.

I would appreciate hearing from any Protestant observations of how the sacrfical nature of the Eucharist is manifest, or not being manifest in their liturgical practices.

Hi Daryl,

Our liturgical Eucharist practice seems to be the same for last thirty years , in that it is not a "sacrifice’’ , except that of praise and thanksgiving. We do not use words that are sacrificial in nature or that supplicate acceptance, or showing a need of. We do use the words that are scriptural and universal to us all.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I have never heard of communion being called or considered a sacrifice at any of the churches I have been at. We consider it a time to remember Jesus’ sacrifice for us. It is not believed to be a propitiatory or atonement sacrifice at my church. We believe that we are saved and forgiven when we accept Jesus. Any future sins are forgiven at the moment we confess the sins to God.

I have recently learned of something called a Todah Sacrifice. I have never heard this term used at my church, however it does sound very similar to my understanding of communion. The link below gives a more detailed description, but basically it is a thank offering given after one has been rescued or “saved” from great peril such as disease or in battle. It was used in the OT and was thought to be the only sacrifice that would continue after the Messiah. The sacrifice consists of a lamb, bread and wine. As Christians we believe we were saved when accepted Jesus, therefore we have been rescued from peril. We don’t have lamb at our communion, however we do reflect on Jesus’ sacrifice (lamb) and consume bread and wine (or grape juice for some after the temperance movement). I found learning about the Todah Sacrifice very interesting.

catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/from-jewish-passover-to-christian-eucharist-the-story-of-the-todah.html

So, if someone says the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice for atonement of sin, I would disagree. If someone says that the Eucharist (thanksgiving) is a Todah (thanksgiving) sacrifice, then I would probably agree.

Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho, approx. 150AD:
(This is a written dialogue between Justin Martyr and a Jewish priest who may be real or may be fictionalized for his writing purposes.)
“Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind, whose name the high priests of your nation and your teachers have caused to be profaned and blasphemed over all the earth.”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

Hi susanio,

Good to see you here.

Yes, the earliest patristic writings all speak of thanksgiving and praise. I mean it was mixed in with a party, a love feast , a celebration, the furthest thing from a "sacrifice’’. But that it later developed into one is not challenged. Just now that it (sacrifice) can be questioned if it is indeed part of the apostolic tradition, like the party part.

Blessings

PS- Daryl may be right that indeed I have heard some P churches are adopting a more mystical, even “Catholic” ceremony.

 

[benhur]

Interesting prophetic passage:

There’s one Church I know of that has Masses all day, everyday, with incense and a pure offering around the globe…

Hi La,

Do mean a "Church as sectarian (apart from O’s and P’s who are also worldwide), or do you mean universal/catholic as the Body of Christ , the Bride , throughout the globe ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

In the Anglican Church I attended,(less protestant of them all but still protestant) There were supposedly occasions where a non-Anglican person, like a service worker was in the Church and did not pay respect to the Eucharist(genuflect or bow) and were knocked on their posterior by a unseen force.

La,

Immaterial in determining doctrine. There are always two forces at work, one for order and one for confusion, begging more discernment. Remember the demon that prophesied thru somebody that the apostles were indeed of God, and later had to be cast out.

Blessings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Do mean a "Church as sectarian (apart from O’s and P’s who are also worldwide), or do you mean universal/catholic as the Body of Christ , the Bride , throughout the globe ?

Blessings

Hi benhur,

Mainly referring to the one Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church lead by the Bishop of Rome, but you could also make the argument that the O’s and possibly a select few protestant denominations are included in this.

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur,

Mainly referring to the one Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church lead by the Bishop of Rome, but you could also make the argument that the O’s and possibly a select few protestant denominations are included in this.

Hi La,

Thanks for the reply and I thought as much.

I would entreat you to a more universal, catholic approach on the matter, but thank you for some inclusion of *others
*.
Blessings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

La,

Immaterial in determining doctrine. There are always two forces at work, one for order and one for confusion, begging more discernment. Remember the demon that prophesied thru somebody that the apostles were indeed of God, and later had to be cast out.

Blessings

I get what you are saying and honestly didn’t think much of it then or now. According to the Catholic Church the Anglicans do not have valid orders, so the host could not be validly consecrated. So what was actually happening there is anyone’s guess Interesting nonetheless.

I believe the Eucharist is Jesus because the Church Jesus established teaches it and not due to immaterial occurrences.

Pax

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Thanks for the reply and I thought as much.

I would entreat you to a more universal, catholic approach on the matter, but thank you for some inclusion of *others
*.
Blessings

Hi Ben,

That can be a bit difficult when the P’s beliefs are so diverse and some of their churches have attempted to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

For example, that passage I quoted from referred to incense. How many Baptist Churches out there are lighting incense and offering it to the Lord? My guess would be 0.

 

[Tommy999]

This article describes how some of the Protestant faith traditions relate to the Eucharist and real presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist

 

[JonNC]

I am reading a book titled “Bread of Life and Cup of Joy” written by Horton Davies 1993. In the book is a chapter “The Eucharist as Sacrifice” in which the author has a rather positive observation that many Protestant churches (though not all) seem to be developing a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sacrifical nature of the Eucharist, when in the past it was avoided, or reduced.

I would appreciate hearing from any Protestant observations of how the sacrfical nature of the Eucharist is manifest, or not being manifest in their liturgical practices.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Starting at paragraph 56 is a good discussion of Eucharistic sacrifice within Lutheran and Catholic theology.

Jon

 

[benhur]

I get what you are saying and honestly didn’t think much of it then or now. According to the Catholic Church the Anglicans do not have valid orders, so the host could not be validly consecrated. So what was actually happening there is anyone’s guess Interesting nonetheless.
I believe the Eucharist is Jesus because the Church Jesus established teaches it and not due to immaterial occurrences.

Pax

Hi La,

The underlined seems like a little self imposed ambiguity .For the most part the few communion understandings have been around and known for a long time (and some would say since apostolic times). No one needs to guess, only look.

As to the specifics of this thread, there are only two views I would think. Either it is “sacrificial” or it is not. Only two ways (apart from any real presence views though somewhat connected)

Thank you for your view.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben,

That can be a bit difficult when the P’s beliefs are so diverse and some of their churches have attempted to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

For example, that passage I quoted from referred to incense. How many Baptist Churches out there are lighting incense and offering it to the Lord? My guess would be 0.

Hi La,

I think the post above answers this also.

The incense is to my point. You offer incense or you do not, Not really a diverse set of practices on the matter, just two (and both probably reason from apostolic tradition…another thread ?)).

Blessings

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi La,

I think the post above answers this also.

The incense is to my point. You offer incense or you do not, Not really a diverse set of practices on the matter, just two (and both probably reason from apostolic tradition…another thread ?)).

Blessings

There’s also the matter of ‘is it choice, wrong, pagan, sinful, or some combination of it’? Some Baptists accuse Catholics/Orthodox of paganism for such practices. Practices found in the Bible, of course.