Protestant Eucharistic Miracles

[Traveller1534]

Transubstantiation isn’t only totally non-biblical, it is ridiculous. It is almost as bad as snake oil or swamp land. It serves no practical purpose for folks to think that (ONLY) a Catholic priest can perform this magical feat. Non-sensical. This is what happens to folks that are caught up in Catholicism whether converted or generational. I got out.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Congratulations. You have just permanently convinced me that, in the very unlikely event that I should ever return to the Christian Church, under no circumstances would I ever be able to become Catholic if there were the absolute remotest chance in the universe that this might occur to anyone in the congregation, much less me.

If these are the stories of miracles that missionaries are telling to potential converts, no wonder the Church has a history of being accused of cannibalism. And people think ancient animal sacrifice by pagans is unsavory?

Karen,

Pay no attention to Traveller. He doesn’t need to be convinced that he hates the Church, just look at his other posts.

Traveller,

All I can say to you is that I am bewildered by your svelte debating style and the quality of your arguments.

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Transubstantiation isn’t only totally non-biblical, it is ridiculous. It is almost as bad as snake oil or swamp land. It serves no practical purpose for folks to think that (ONLY) a Catholic priest can perform this magical feat. Non-sensical. This is what happens to folks that are caught up in Catholicism whether converted or generational. I got out.

Once again your remarks demonstrate your unfamiliarity with scripture…transubstantiation is totally biblical and comes directly from the mouth of Christ in many places. Your denial is false and empty.

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

You are all convinced that only yourselves possess the eucharist. I hear it over and over again and I too was onc Catholic so I do understand the concept. But, I can assure you that not only Roman Catholics possess the eucharist. I have witnessed the outpouring of the holy spirit from the eucharist on two occassions and neither one was in a Catholic church. I received the eucharist for the better part of 34 yars in a Roman Catholic church and experienced nothing.

Traveller,

Well, well…so you expect me to accept your word while you mock Cahtolic beliefs all over the place…and I can say is really?

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Now wait just a minute. Doesn’t the Catholic church profess that its clergy can actually change the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ through transubstantiation? If that be the case, then your faith would have you wholeheartedly believe that it is the body and blood of Christ regardless of its visual characteristics.

Traveller,

Did you even bother to look at the web site LilyM recommended?

Iowa Mike

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Transubstantiation isn’t only totally non-biblical, it is ridiculous. It is almost as bad as snake oil or swamp land. It serves no practical purpose for folks to think that (ONLY) a Catholic priest can perform this magical feat. Non-sensical. This is what happens to folks that are caught up in Catholicism whether converted or generational. I got out.

You just get angrier and ruder still.

I will ask again…

Traveller - some basic netiquette dictates it is time to stand up or stand down.

In the scant 15 posts you have merrily spread accross CAF you have mostly written a sentence or two or three as to why you are NOT Catholic with gems like:

***Why does the Roman Catholic church really lack that zeal for fellowship and out reach?

---

***If faith alone were not true, then how could a man who sinned graveously his entire life be saved just breaths before death by our one and true savior himself? Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, not if you say a set number of Hail Mary’s and such maybe you will make it through purgatory. ***

***There are many reasons why I left Catholicism and social behavior is just merely one of the smaller reasons. True tradition and doctrine would be two much larger ones.

---

I’m really sorry that you look at it that way. If you really and truly believe that God wishes you to be guilt ridden your entire life, than I think unfortunately you have missed the boat.

My favorite barb being the most recent:

I left the church when I realized that the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!

And it makes it all the harder to see this comment as ANYTHING by disingenuous:

*** Very sad that we can’t consider each other at least somewhat in focus together.***

Traveler, if you want to discuss the Catholic Faith here great. If you want to discuss questions you had over matters that lead you to leave, very good. If you want to get a feel for Catholic sensibilities on certain matters beyond your parochial world-view of your individual experience, wonderful.

If you don’t share Catholic views - we can live with that. If you disagree with us and play nicely, that is spectacular - there is room for that. If you want to post thoughtful posts that are a little longer than three-sentences and have a back and forth dialogue rather than make broad claims like “the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!”, well let’s talk.

But to pop in and out of threads it begs the question:

Are you hear to discuss difference, and ask questions, or to troll the forum with snide comments about how Catholocism got this that and the other thing wrong, and after 34 years you saw the light and became an Anglican?

What are you here to do?

I am not a “fan of the ban” but frankly, if you can’t so much as phrase a question or statement “I believe this is wrong because…” or “I don;t understand how it is the case that…” Well frankly, I am not sure what could justify your continued presence.

But to come here and call our beliefs comparable to “snake oil”… That crosses a line of any decency or Christian Charity.

If you can’t play nicely, go back to your own sandbox where you seem to be so very happy.

 

[LilyM]

f this isn’t the biggest act of mental gymnastics I have ever seen! Face it, it is both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ, the scriptures say exactly that!!!

Traveller1534:

Transubstantiation isn’t only totally non-biblical, it is ridiculous. It is almost as bad as snake oil or swamp land. It serves no practical purpose for folks to think that (ONLY) a Catholic priest can perform this magical feat. Non-sensical. This is what happens to folks that are caught up in Catholicism whether converted or generational. I got out.

Love ya too traveller

Jesus said ‘the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world’, not ‘the bread that I will give is still bread partially my flesh too …’

Frankly consubstation is a pretty big bit of ‘mental gymnasticery’ in its own right, why you don’t just stick with a plain and simple symbolic Eucharist and have done with it I’ll never know.

Point being OUR particular bit of ‘mental gymnastics’ and ‘snake oil’ is one that has been passed down to us from the very earliest of the Early Church Fathers, who learnt at the feet of St John the Apostle himself.

And that few - almost no - Christians disputed for 1500 years until Henry VIII and Mr Luther came along and in their hatred of Rome had to find a convenient fiction that was almost-but-not-quite - similar enough to the truth to be reassuring, different enough to appease those who hated all things Roman Catholic. Voila consubstantiation.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

You just get angrier and ruder still.

I will ask again…

I am not a “fan of the ban” but frankly, if you can’t so much as phrase a question or statement “I believe this is wrong because…” or “I don;t understand how it is the case that…” Well frankly, I am not sure what could justify your continued presence.

But to come here and call our beliefs comparable to “snake oil”… That crosses a line of any decency or Christian Charity.

If you can’t play nicely, go back to your own sandbox where you seem to be so very happy.

ASimpleSinner,

I agree completely with your post. Have you considered the possibility that Mr. Traveller is not now, nor has ever been, a Catholic? His posts show a profound unfamiliarity with the faith (and scripture for that matter) for someone who claims to have been Catholic for 34 years. His crass and offensive posts indicate that he loathes Catholics and Catholicism and this forum gives him a platform to say so. I’m not a fan of the ban either so I hope he sticks, maybe he’ll learn something about Christian charity. Besides, since he doesn’t play well with others, where would Traveller find a ‘sandbox’ for one?

Iowa Mike

 

[Traveller1534]

Once again your remarks demonstrate your unfamiliarity with scripture…transubstantiation is totally biblical and comes directly from the mouth of Christ in many places. Your denial is false and empty.

Iowa Mike

Show me one piece of scripture that speaks to transubstantiation. I would love to see it although it doesn’t exist. As for my debating style, it isn’t unique or exclusive. It just hinges upon the truth which many Catholics seem to be quite unfarmiliar with.

 

[Traveller1534]

Love ya too traveller

Jesus said ‘the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world’, not ‘the bread that I will give is still bread partially my flesh too …’

Frankly consubstation is a pretty big bit of ‘mental gymnasticery’ in its own right, why you don’t just stick with a plain and simple symbolic Eucharist and have done with it I’ll never know.

Point being OUR particular bit of ‘mental gymnastics’ and ‘snake oil’ is one that has been passed down to us from the very earliest of the Early Church Fathers, who learnt at the feet of St John the Apostle himself.

And that few - almost no - Christians disputed for 1500 years until Henry VIII and Mr Luther came along and in their hatred of Rome had to find a convenient fiction that was almost-but-not-quite - similar enough to the truth to be reassuring, different enough to appease those who hated all things Roman Catholic. Voila consubstantiation.

Here we go once again adding something that is exclusively Catholic (man-made) to what is already perfectly clear in scripture. It doesn’t say that a priest can change bread into flesh and wine into blood. Jesus passed around bread and wine and said that this is my body and this is my blood and do this for the rememberance of me. It is there in scripture but once again, Roman Catholics have to either add, change or deduct from. Transubstantiation is case and point. Glad I left the Roman church. Always remember, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus and also Peter.

 

[LilyM]

Here we go once again adding something that is exclusively Catholic (man-made) to what is already perfectly clear in scripture. It doesn’t say that a priest can change bread into flesh and wine into blood. Jesus passed around bread and wine and said that this is my body and this is my blood and do this for the rememberance of me. It is there in scripture but once again, Roman Catholics have to either add, change or deduct from. Transubstantiation is case and point. Glad I left the Roman church. Always remember, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus and also Peter.

So you think any person can speak the words over their wonder loaf and bottle of cheap vino and change it into the Body and Blood of Christ? Or only your denomination’s priests, since it’s convenient to you to believe so?

Did Christ get the disciples on the Road to Emmaus (who presumably hadn’t been commissioned to ‘do this in my memory’ at the last supper) to break their own bread or did he do it for them?

And the Romans crucified Jesus? if I remember correctly the Jews had a little something to do with it too … not to mention every single one of us including yourself (after all, He died in your place to redeem you from your sins, did He not? In effect you crucified Him as surely as those who drove the nails in)

Now we know for sure you were never Catholic, as if any Catholic could say such ignorant trash.

 

[Traveller1534]

So you think any person can speak the words over their wonder loaf and bottle of cheap vino and change it into the Body and Blood of Christ? Or only your denomination’s priests, since it’s convenient to you to believe so?

Did Christ get the disciples on the Road to Emmaus (who presumably hadn’t been commissioned to ‘do this in my memory’ at the last supper) to break their own bread or did he do it for them?

And the Romans crucified Jesus? if I remember correctly the Jews had a little something to do with it too … not to mention every single one of us including yourself (after all, He died in your place to redeem you from your sins, did He not? In effect you crucified Him as surely as those who drove the nails in)

Now we know for sure you were never Catholic, as if any Catholic could say such ignorant trash.

Thank you so much for that. You made absolutely no sense other than to shed light on the fact that you have a dislike for Jews (as Mel Gibson obviously does). And, a Catholic didn’t say what you called ignorant trash, I said it. And once again, it isn’t ignorant it is the truth.

 

[Church_Militant]

Transubstantiation isn’t only totally non-biblical, it is ridiculous. It is almost as bad as snake oil or swamp land. It serves no practical purpose for folks to think that (ONLY) a Catholic priest can perform this magical feat. Non-sensical. This is what happens to folks that are caught up in Catholicism whether converted or generational. I got out.

I’d advise you to get out of the habit of speaking about Catholicism since you don’t seem to have your facts straight, but just a load of anti-Catholic propaganda.

“Transubstantiation” is a 50 cent word used to define a miraculous and very Biblical event.

I offer as evidence the following passages of Scripture:

John 6:31-70

"31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. 35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God. "

 

[Church_Militant]

Matthew 26:26-28

"26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins. "

Mark 14:22-24

“22 And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. 23 And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.”

Luke 22:17-20

“17 And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: 18 For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. 19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. 20 In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.”

Luke 24:30-35

"30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread, and blessed, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him: and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in this way, and opened to us the scriptures? 33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them, 34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread. "

1st Corinthians 10:16-17

“16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? 17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.”

1st Corinthians 11:23-30

"23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many inform and weak among you, and many sleep. "

Now, you can assert whatever you please, but based upon the Word of God, I’d have to say that you are dead wrong.

Whose peddalin’ snake oil now? uch:

 

[Church_Militant]

Show me one piece of scripture that speaks to transubstantiation. I would love to see it although it doesn’t exist.

Really? I’d say you have a long way to go to make a case for anything other than your rhetoric, and even then it won’t hold up to the facts as truth…

As for my debating style, it isn’t unique or exclusive. It just hinges upon the truth which many Catholics seem to be quite unfarmiliar with.

I have never had a problem, with truth, though I do have a problem with propagandists that make allegations without substance, and that is all you have offered. A lot of disparaging comments about your suposed knowledge of the Catholic faith, when in fact I just showed that you are dead wrong.

Your style? Is more offensive rhetoric without substantive fact than truth.

You left too huh? Too bad. I discovered that I was deceived by well meaning people with Bibles in their hands. You can read about it all here.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thank you so much for that. You made absolutely no sense other than to shed light on the fact that you have a dislike for Jews (as Mel Gibson obviously does).

So now you are a judge of other men’s servants?
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own lord he standeth or falleth. And he shall stand: for God is able to make him stand. As for Mr. Gibson, he’s not really relevant to this discussion.

A long time a go my sainted Grandmother, (God rest her soul) told me that whenever I saw someone messing up like that to say right out loud. “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”

I get along quite well with my Jewish friends and they happen to be very orthodox and they know I’m a Catholic. I also happen to know that they do not like folks who come on to them the way you have to us.

And, a Catholic didn’t say what you called ignorant trash, I said it.

Well…I think the lady’s definition is pretty accurate.

And once again, it isn’t ignorant it is the truth.

Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Show me one piece of scripture that speaks to transubstantiation. I would love to see it although it doesn’t exist. As for my debating style, it isn’t unique or exclusive. It just hinges upon the truth which many Catholics seem to be quite unfarmiliar with.

Traveller,

You have been given several examples taken directly from scripture that you have chosen to dismiss. I have no doubt that you’ll do the same here but I’ll offer you the following anyway:

John 6:31-70

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. 35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

#1 of 2…

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

#2 of 2

Traveller,

Please note that Christ’s words were not accepted by many and they left him(sound familiar?). When they left Christ didn’t chase after them saying…"Hey, I was just kidding…I meant that this was symbolic, come back. No, he let them go.

Christ lthen instituted the Eucharist and the Priesthood at the Last Supper (if you help finding the specific passages let me know). Jesus said, "This “is” my body and this “is” my blood. He went on to say, “Do this in memory of me”. This was the first mass…

Now it is your turn…you need to explain why you don’t understand what Christ said and you need to do so with more that just your own opinion. By now I think everyone knows what the definition of “IS” IS.

With respect to your debating style. I don’t think your on the forum to discuss religion, I think your here to beat on the Church and your crass approach proves it.

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Traveller,

You have been provided with overwhelming scriptural references proving transubstantiation.

We all await your profound, biblically grounded, evidence disproving it.

The clock ticks.

Iowa Mike

 

[Traveller1534]

Traveller,

You have been provided with overwhelming scriptural references proving transubstantiation.

We all await your profound, biblically grounded, evidence disproving it.

The clock ticks.

Iowa Mike

What you quoted from scripture proves beyond a shadow of a doubt what we believe as Anglicans and what most Catholics I know believe and that is that the Eucharist is both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ. This is plain to see and you pointed it out in several scriptures and for that, my hat is off to you. The case has been made to some Evangelicals and Jehovahs Witnesses and such that the Eucharist is important and in fact the center of our worship and this is why we partake in it every Sunday. Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans and also Orthodox folls as well all agree. However, nothing states that only a Roman catholic priest has the ability to change the physical characteristics of bread and wine and for that matter nowhere did it say that a physical change ever takes place. Sorry. I never bought it when I was Roman Catholic and I certainly don’t buy it now. Why??? It is simply not scriptural.