Protestant Franciscans, Augustinians, and Benedictines. Are these guys in denial?

[FCEGM]

The All Saints Sisters of the Poor, of Catonsville (Baltimore) and Philadelphia, will be received into the Catholic Church on September third. They are a well-known (well, “well-known” among Episcopalians/Anglicans) order of traditionalist nuns.

The first public announcement of this was made on Thursday at the Anglican Use Conference (anglicanuse.org/) in Houston.

 

[Lepanto]

I am rather shocked to see that the only barriers that we are still putting up in the church today are MAN MADE.

Agreed.

And sadly, many of these man-made barriers were established by the Protestant Reformers, especially when they denied the validity of all of the sacraments except baptism.

Fortunately, these barriers can be undone. An example of that is The All Saints Sisters of the Poor (post #141) as they reunite with the Catholic Church.

 

[Padrej]

I would take it that the last post believes that The Roman Catholic church was and is perfect and puts up no barriers. When one looks at the reasons the reformers were leaveing it was NOT over the validity of the sacraments but of their abuse.

Just simply do a google search on selling indulgences as a prime example or what started monk Martin on his path of reform. Martin Luther witnessed people selling all they had just to get a peice of paper to have the assurance they were not going to burn in Hell.

What caused Menno Simon to break in the 1500’s was that the church used infant baptism as citizenship to the country as well, this left no room for a person to decide on their own faith in Jesus. Menno also noted that many of the priests serving the sacrament of communion were drunk on the wine before ever consecrating it, thus making a mockery of the sacrament.

Dare we even speak of the inquisition? Granted these are past barriers, but when one looks at the clergy sexual abuse that goes on in all denominations not many barriers have come down, especially when the church turns a blind eye to it as has happened.

It amazes me also that some bishops of the Roman Catholic church will tolerate open rebellious practice of its parrishioners of Catholic teachings and administer the sacraments to them, while others do not. Case in point, How is it that polititions who vote against policies that are CLEARLY anti catholic and I dare say anti Christian allowed to recieve the sacraments? It is because the bishop in their area is liberal. Just as there are some Roman Catholic churches that allow anyone to come to the communion rail, while others fence the altar and say only practicing Roman Catholics may recieve. Speaking with one Catholic priest in my local ministerium, he claims some of the new philosophy is “give it to everyone and let God sort it out.” Granted that knocks down a barrier but it also in my mind invalidates the sacrament.

I hope this clarifies my view on Man made barriers, they are on BOTH sides.

 

[Padrej]

I have heard stories of intercommunion between RC and Anglican Franciscans, on the grounds that they see themselves as Franciscans first and RCs or Anglicans second.

I myself am hoping to go to St Gregory’s Abbey, a Benedictine community in Michigan this summer for their vocational discernment programme. Affiliated with the Episcopal Church, they were founded in the 1930s and until Vatican II celebrated the Tridentine Mass.

I believe that this is the proper way of viewing this “Franciscans FIRST and RC and Anglican second.” Many of this thread will probably be shocked to know that the United Methodist church also has an abbey of Benedictines in Minnesota, they were established in conjunction with the Methodist Church and Roman Catholic church. I know this will come as hard to the person who thinks and has posted the comment “in the land of make believe,” in response so the above quotation but I say to this person get with the program; if the Roman Catholic church is blessing this order what is wrong with YOU?

It would seem that we should also be CHRISTIAN first and then what ever faith practice second. Not the other way around.
May I remind you that the Roman Catholic church as we basically know it today was not birthed until the 12th century and prior to this was considerd “Orthodox.” Since the schism both the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox have been arguing over who is THE Church. When we waste out time arguing over who is right, Satan has won and souls that could be won for Christ are lost. To me I would rather be on the side of Christ than on the side of the disputers.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I believe that this is the proper way of viewing this “Franciscans FIRST and RC and Anglican second.” Many of this thread will probably be shocked to know that the United Methodist church also has an abbey of Benedictines in Minnesota, they were established in conjunction with the Methodist Church and Roman Catholic church. I know this will come as hard to the person who thinks and has posted the comment “in the land of make believe,” in response so the above quotation but I say to this person get with the program; if the Roman Catholic church is blessing this order what is wrong with YOU?

It would seem that we should also be CHRISTIAN first and then what ever faith practice second. Not the other way around.
May I remind you that the Roman Catholic church as we basically know it today was not birthed until the 12th century and prior to this was considerd “Orthodox.” Since the schism both the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox have been arguing over who is THE Church. When we waste out time arguing over who is right, Satan has won and souls that could be won for Christ are lost. To me I would rather be on the side of Christ than on the side of the disputers.

great. what is your solution for this problem?

 

[Lepanto]

I believe that this is the proper way of viewing this “Franciscans FIRST and RC and Anglican second.” Many of this thread will probably be shocked to know that the United Methodist church also has an abbey of Benedictines in Minnesota, they were established in conjunction with the Methodist Church and Roman Catholic church. I know this will come as hard to the person who thinks and has posted the comment “in the land of make believe,” in response so the above quotation but I say to this person get with the program; if the Roman Catholic church is blessing this order what is wrong with YOU?

Religious congregations are fairly autonomous. They do not speak for the official Church–the bishops do that. (And there is no shortage of problematic congregations, these days.) How has the Catholic Church officially blessed this arrangement? Has any Catholic bishop in good standing with the Church officially blessed it?

And let’s all remember as these congregations ignore the reality of the differences between Catholic and Protestant theologies that religious indifferentism and syncretism are both heresies.

newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/14383c.htm

 

[Padrej]

Religious congregations are fairly autonomous. They do not speak for the official Church–the bishops do that. (And there is no shortage of problematic congregations, these days.) How has the Catholic Church officially blessed this arrangement? Has any Catholic bishop in good standing with the Church officially blessed it?

And let’s all remember as these congregations ignore the reality of the differences between Catholic and Protestant theologies that religious indifferentism and syncretism are both heresies.

newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/14383c.htm

To answer your question “Has any Bishop in good standing blessed it?” we first need to look at the location of said Methodist Benedictine Order. It is a chapter of St. Johns Abbey Of Collegeville MN (many may have heard of St John’s press, same group); this order Founded 1855, the American-Cassinese Congregation is a Catholic association of Benedictine monasteries.

The Congregation consists of 20 **independent monasteries **with houses or dependencies in 16 of the United States, Puerto Rico, and in six other countries on three continents.

Abbot Boniface Wimmer OSB, founder of Saint Vincent Archabbey in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, created the Congregation. Pope Pius IX erected it as a monastic congregation under the patronage of the Holy Guardian Angels.

Please notice that this group as was pointed out by one post is an “independent order” but this order has the blessing of the Pope. As an order that is independent they are permitted to do such if they so choose as they have a warrant from the Vatican and charter from the Vatican to do so. Not all monastic communities may be set up in this manner but may have a closer tie to “mother church” that does not permit such. This order being independent with the blessing of Rome can do so.

I hope you consider Pope Pius IX a “bishop in good standing.”

 

[Padrej]

To this line of previous post “Religious congregations are fairly autonomous.” This is what caused the break up of the crusader monastic orders like the Knights Templar. They answered only to Rome and not to the local bishop. As they became wealthier the local bishops wanted this wealth and soon brought up false charges aginst them to break up the order as well as many like them.
It is this principle that St. Johns Abbey in MN that sponsors the Methodist Benedictines is arranged under. When the Methodist group was founded in 1989 Pope John Paull II was very eccumenical and being this order only answered to him, it was permitted. It came under the Canon Law of the church for religious orders that they are allowed to set up any number of houses they wish and where. They must follow the rule of the order, in this case Benedictine. so in this case they are Benedictine FIRST then Roman Catholic.
Just as everyone should be Christian FIRST then whatever your affiliation. Too much martyr’s blood has been shed to not be Christian and continue sniping at one another by this childish “I am right and you are wrong” stuff. We are supposed to be one body with differing functions.
I wonder if those who keep claiming they are the only ones correct in the Body of Christ are the heel part of the body or another part that shouldn’t be mentioned in a church?

 

[O.S.Luke]

I was in seminary with Mary Stamps when she was working on her Ph.D at Emory; Mary is the foundress of St. Brigid of Kildare monastery at St. John’s Abbey (mentioned above). An article that appeared in National Catholic Reporter can be read here.