Protestant have their own traditions and doctrines

[Mannyfit75]

There are so many times Protestants condemning traditions, but they also have their own traditions and doctrines.

1. Alter Calls.
2. Music with guitars and rock and roll type music.
3. Rapture.
4. Once Saved Always Saved.
5. Professing “sinner’s prayer.”

There could be more, but Protestantism itself has develop overtime and came up which so many traditions, and dogmas all their own based solely on Sola Scriptura.

So what right do they have to condemned the “TRADITIONS” of the Catholic Church?

 

[Della]

When I was in the Assemblies of God we didn’t look at our “traditions” in the same light as those of the Catholic Church. To us what we did was “Bible-based” and what the Catholics held as traditions were the “traditions of men” warned against in the Bible.

It’s very easy to have blind spots when condemning what others practice/believe. I guess all of us ought to take to heart Jesus’ words when he said, “Take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

 

[rr1213]

Most Protestants don’t place Tradition on the same level as Scripture. It’s not the same approach as you take.

 

[Della]

Most Protestants don’t place Tradition on the same level as Scripture. It’s not the same approach as you take.

That’s because they no nothing of/misunderstand what Sacred Tradition is. Tradition and Living Magisterium.

 

[rbarcia]

There are so many times Protestants condemning traditions, but they also have their own traditions and doctrines.

1. Alter Calls.
2. Music with guitars and rock and roll type music.
3. Rapture.
4. Once Saved Always Saved.
5. Professing “sinner’s prayer.”

There could be more, but Protestantism itself has develop overtime and came up which so many traditions, and dogmas all their own based solely on Sola Scriptura.

So what right do they have to condemned the “TRADITIONS” of the Catholic Church?

You are misrepresenting the argument. No man can deny not having traditions. The issue is around defining doctrine, not what we do. There is no doctrine of salvation through sinner’s prayer, rock music, or alter calls.

But don’t catholics have the notion of ‘Sacred Tradition’ apart from other traditions? You define doctrines on ‘sacred tradition’, but not regular tradition.

But the fourth items on your list, I am sure many believe that they are biblical, not tradition
**

John 10

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

**

Even the third item is derived from scripture.
**

Mat 24

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1Cor 15:51-55

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”[c]

**

This is just a bitter and bating thread with no real substance or claim for debating, just ridicule on your part.

 

[Mannyfit75]

rcbarcia;

OSAS is not 100% guranteed. Correct me if I’m wrong about this doctrine.

OSAS is the belief that once you received Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you are saved. No sin, past, present and future can separate from God’s saving grace.

So does it justify a saved Christian man to go a Strip Club, because he believed that the sin of lust will not ruin his saved status?

The Bible itself is not in favor of OSAS and not all Protestants believed in OSAS.

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:21
I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things [serious sins] shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Romans 6:12-13
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.

Romans 8:17
If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us....

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...."

Matthew 19:23-24
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Romans 2:5-6
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

rcbarcia;

OSAS is not 100% guranteed. Correct me if I’m wrong about this doctrine.

OSAS is the belief that once you received Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you are saved. No sin, past, present and future can separate from God’s saving grace.

So does it justify a saved Christian man to go a Strip Club, because he believed that the sin of lust will not ruin his saved status?

Well, he shouldn’t go there in the first place. But then, we’re all sinners. However, a real Christian would not believe in cheap grace. Think about that ok?

The Bible itself is not in favor of OSAS and not all Protestants believed in OSAS.

OSAS is scriptural. Over and over again Jesus and the other Apostles teach about “eternal life”. Eternal means eternal.

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die.

This doesn’t say when the person will die. All it says is he will die. And remember, that the wages of sin is death. Everyone sins, everyone dies.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Don’t forget verse 11 which says: "11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Don’t forget verse 13 which says: “13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.” This has nothing to do with how long someone is saved, OSAS or not-OSAS. It is talking about temptation and sin.

Galatians 5:21
I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things [serious sins] shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The NKJV says those who “practice” such things, meaning repeatedly do such things without the slightest hint of conviction of sin and repentance. Read the rest of the chapter for the context of that verse.

These are the only verses I will comment on at this time. Always put Scripture in context or it can be made to say just about anything. Peace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

OSAS is scriptural. Over and over again Jesus and the other Apostles teach about “eternal life”. Eternal means eternal.

Nope not according to this Protestant’s article on OSAS.

anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Protestants are not unified on OSAS, and the CC does not believe in OSAS.

You can loose salvation if you don’t in accordance to the commandments of God.

Here is another Protestant who is against OSAS.

biblical-pentecostals.org/full_gospel_2.htm

Sungenis, a Catholic Apologist wrote the following:

R. Sungenis: James, the verse reads in the Greek: “Who also will confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

There is no need to lessen the significance of “confirm,” and the Greek will not allow it anyway. The way to answer this is to show that the verse is saying that Christ is faithful in doing his part for your salvation. In other words, he won’t pull the rug out from under you, one day helping you and the next day ignoring you. This is reiterated in the next verse, which says: “God is faithful, by whom you were called to the fellowship of his Son…” That is, God will always do his part. The question is: will you do your part? This is seen more clearly in a passage like 2 Timothy 2:12-13:

1. if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
2. if we are faithless, he remains faithful – for he cannot deny himself.

Verse 13 tells us the same truth that 1 Cor 1:8-9 tells us, that is, God is faithful, always. But verse 12 tells us that we may not be faithful, and if we aren’t, then God will “deny us.”

The key is interpreting the passage in its context, and the context of 1 Corinthians 1-16 is one page after another of people falling from the faith, and warning the others to remain faithful lest the same apostasy happen to them, and they find themselves under God’s judgment (cf. 1Co 3:1-17; 4:1-8; 5:1-5; 6:9-10; 10:1-12; 15:1-29; 2 Cor 11:1-15; 12:20-13:5)

 

[Alexius]

Originally Posted by hoosierdaddy:
OSAS is scriptural. Over and over again Jesus and the other Apostles teach about “eternal life”. Eternal means eternal.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “eternal life” refer to the life in Heaven? The last time I checked, I thought it was inevitable for us to die on Earth . Do you truly believe that our future calling home is based on a past event . I doubt Luther would even agree.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Mannyfit75]

Originally Posted by hoosierdaddy:
OSAS is scriptural. Over and over again Jesus and the other Apostles teach about “eternal life”. Eternal means eternal.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “eternal life” refer to the life in Heaven? The last time I checked, I thought it was inevitable for us to die on Earth . Do you truly believe that our future calling home is based on a past event . I doubt Luther would even agree.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Eternal life is refering to eternal life with God in heaven for all eternity; provided that we Christians keep the commandments.

Believing is not enough. Deeds are demanded by us as well as faith.

 

[Alexius]

“Believing is not enough. Deeds are demanded by us as well as faith.”

I totally agree , but I’m not sure hoosierdaddy does…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Mannyfit75]

“Believing is not enough. Deeds are demanded by us as well as faith.”

I totally agree , but I’m not sure hoosierdaddy does…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

He is Protestants, and they don’t accept many beliefs that Catholics held.

Are you Orthodox or Eastern Catholic?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

“Believing is not enough. Deeds are demanded by us as well as faith.”

I totally agree , but I’m not sure hoosierdaddy does…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

You’d be right. I don’t agree with that. No deed can get us into heaven. That is blasphemous against Christ and His work to suggest otherwise.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Originally Posted by hoosierdaddy:
OSAS is scriptural. Over and over again Jesus and the other Apostles teach about “eternal life”. Eternal means eternal.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “eternal life” refer to the life in Heaven? The last time I checked, I thought it was inevitable for us to die on Earth . Do you truly believe that our future calling home is based on a past event . I doubt Luther would even agree.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Eternal life starts the moment you are born again. It is the eternal life of your soul, even though your body will die and be resurrected. I would think Luther would agree with this but if not, he’d be wrong.

Yes our future home is based on a past event. The cross.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Nope not according to this Protestant’s article on OSAS.

anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Protestants are not unified on OSAS, and the CC does not believe in OSAS.

You can loose salvation if you don’t in accordance to the commandments of God.

Here is another Protestant who is against OSAS.

biblical-pentecostals.org/full_gospel_2.htm

Sungenis, a Catholic Apologist wrote the following:

R. Sungenis: James, the verse reads in the Greek: “Who also will confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

There is no need to lessen the significance of “confirm,” and the Greek will not allow it anyway. The way to answer this is to show that the verse is saying that Christ is faithful in doing his part for your salvation. In other words, he won’t pull the rug out from under you, one day helping you and the next day ignoring you. This is reiterated in the next verse, which says: “God is faithful, by whom you were called to the fellowship of his Son…” That is, God will always do his part. The question is: will you do your part? This is seen more clearly in a passage like 2 Timothy 2:12-13:

1. if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
2. if we are faithless, he remains faithful – for he cannot deny himself.

Verse 13 tells us the same truth that 1 Cor 1:8-9 tells us, that is, God is faithful, always. But verse 12 tells us that we may not be faithful, and if we aren’t, then God will “deny us.”

The key is interpreting the passage in its context, and the context of 1 Corinthians 1-16 is one page after another of people falling from the faith, and warning the others to remain faithful lest the same apostasy happen to them, and they find themselves under God’s judgment (cf. 1Co 3:1-17; 4:1-8; 5:1-5; 6:9-10; 10:1-12; 15:1-29; 2 Cor 11:1-15; 12:20-13:5)

Hey Manny, thank you for the links. I am aware that not all Protestants believe in OSAS. I was saved at a pentecostal church that didn’t believe in OSAS. When I saw that the Bible disagreed with them, I thought I should leave.

I will read over and consider all of this as I have time. Got work tomorrow and then my fiancee visiting so I’ll do it when I can. Peace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You’d be right. I don’t agree with that. No deed can get us into heaven. That is blasphemous against Christ and His work to suggest otherwise.

It’s not blasphemous. Scripture does not teach faith alone doctrine.

Please note, that I didn’t say works or deeds alone.

J. Salza, another Catholic Apologist wrote regarding faith alone and works.

J. Salza: There are many passages in Scripture where Jesus and the sacred writers teach that works are required for salvation.

For example, in the parable of the talents, Jesus teaches that those who increased their talents with good works were saved. Those who buried their talents by not doing good works were condemned (Matt 25:14-30).

When Jesus comes at the end of the world, He grants salvation based upon what we have actually done, not how much faith we had (Matt 25:31-46; 16:27). Jesus determines our eternal destiny based upon what we have done with our lives.

In Rev 2:5, Jesus warns the faithful to do the good works they did at first, otherwise he will remove their place in heaven. This proves that good works are necessary for salvation. Our deeds follow us, and determine our eternal destiny (Rev 14:13; 20:12; 22:12). That is why Jesus says “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt 10:22).

Paul echoes Jesus’ teaching about good and bad works and how they determine our salvation (see Rom 2:5-8; Rom 14:10,12; 2 Cor 5:10). Romans 2:5-8 is especially clear. There is a polarity between bad works which lead to hell, and good works which lead to heaven, not just more rewards. Paul also explains this in 1 Cor 3:15 where he describes how a person must pass through fire based on the works he performed during his life. If the works are bad enough, the person is condemned. If the works are mixed good and bad, the bad works retard but not prevent his salvation.

See also James 2. James is speaking about salvific justification when He says “Can his faith save him?” (v.14). James’ answer is an unqualified NO. If the Christian does not perform good works, he cannot be saved. “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

 

[Mannyfit75]

in addition to the previous post, I also like to quote J. Salza:

J. Salza: Rick, the Bible expressly contradicts your ideas about “faith alone” and salvation. The Bible NEVER says we are justified/saved by “faith alone.” In fact, the only time the phrase “faith alone” appears in the bible is to negate this proposition. James says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24). James is talking about salvific justification because he says “Can his faith SAVE him?” (James 2:14). James is not talking about rewards but salvation proper. James’ answer to this rhetorical question is a resounding NO.

Go also to 1 Cor 3:11-17. This is another section that is squarely opposed to your view about rewards v. salvation. In this section, using metaphors, Paul explains that those who do good will be saved, and those who do evil will be condemned (the metaphors Paul uses are gold, silver v. wood, hay). There is a clear polarity between doing good which leads to salvation (v.14) and doing bad which leads to damnation (v.17). This is not about “less rewards.”

Verse 15 poses another problem for you. Paul says that those who built with both materials will suffer loss but will still receive their reward. In order to receive the reward, the person must pass through fire. This fire purges the person of the defects which led to the bad works in the first place. The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. In your theology, there is no place for a post-death punishment by fire process before a person is saved. This isn’t about receiving “less rewards” because the person STILL receives the reward (which is salvation). Yet the saved person first receives a fiery expiation for their sins after their death.

Jesus also never teaches that “faith alone” leads to salvation. He always focuses on works, not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation. In fact, Jesus even says “by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt 12:37). So you see, Rick, there is nothing about receiving salvation by “faith alone.” The Bible is clear that we must add works to our faith to obtain salvation. As James says, we must be doers of the law, and not hearers only, deceiving ourselves. This is the teaching of the Fathers and the 2,000 year-old Catholic Church.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, we don’t ‘earn heaven’. But neither do we get there without works (see James). Not only that, what do we hear from Christ Himself? He tells us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked. . .because when we do this to the least ones, we do it to Him. So if all we have to do is “profess Him with our mouth”, why did HE tell us to serve others? He doesn’t contradict Himself.

You seem to think that Catholics demand salvation of faith plus works. Whereas I believe the teaching is faith through works. What saves us is faith, but not ‘faith alone’ (something which is never found in the Bible except when James tells us that we are NOT ‘saved by faith alone!’) Not “works alone”, not “faith alone”. Faith through works has been Christian teaching (and that includes Catholics, “the originals since 33 AD”) since the beginning. Faith alone. . .that’s a much later and I’m afraid erroneous doctrine.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Manny, thank you for the links. I am aware that not all Protestants believe in OSAS. I was saved at a pentecostal church that didn’t believe in OSAS. When I saw that the Bible disagreed with them, I thought I should leave.

I will read over and consider all of this as I have time. Got work tomorrow and then my fiancee visiting so I’ll do it when I can. Peace.

It is the least I can do to my brother in Christ. As a Catholic Apologists, I’m hear to inform you the correct belief of Catholicism.

Many Protestants have come through this forum, and learn a lot from Catholics who know their knowledge about the Catholic Church’s teachings.

I must admit that I may lose my charity to write a decent post, and if I post something that lacks charity, let me know. I am only human, and I can make mistakes.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Thank you for all the information guys. I will have to take the time to read it over. I do know that James when he talks about works though it is talking about works justifying a man’s faith before other men. I’ll try to expand on it later when I address your posts. Thanks again.