Protestant have their own traditions and doctrines

[Frost]

There are so many times Protestants condemning traditions, but they also have their own traditions and doctrines.

1. Alter Calls.
2. Music with guitars and rock and roll type music.
3. Rapture.
4. Once Saved Always Saved.
5. Professing “sinner’s prayer.”

There could be more, but Protestantism itself has develop overtime and came up which so many traditions, and dogmas all their own based solely on Sola Scriptura.

So what right do they have to condemned the “TRADITIONS” of the Catholic Church?

Perhaps you could tell us what Protestant denomination you are referring to? There’s no teaching in my church that says “Once saved always saved”. Could you please explain how you understand this frase?

There’s a difference between Tradition and tradition, isn’t there? Only tradition is said to exist in Lutheran churches. Further, I would think that what type of music used in the Catholic mass is tradition, not Tradition.

 

[Cat]

Someone above said that this was a bitter thread. I disagree.

I think this thread could be a wake-up call to Protestants who may read this and realize just what their “salvation by faith not works theology” is really teaching them.

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years and came into the Catholic Church April 10, 2004.

In the ten years before coming into the Catholic Church, I and my husband became increasingly disillusioned over many aspects of evangelical Protestantism, including an unwritten but recognized list of “Works” that people have to do if they are truly Christians.

You see, Protestants don’t believe in salvation through works, but they do believe a true Christian WILL perform works out of gratefulness to God. If a person does not produce these “works,” then they are not truly a Christian, because a true Christian will be so grateful to God that the “works” will just overflow naturally.

My husband and I were quite upset because we didn’t produce many of the “Works” on the list, and certain people in our church seemed to think that we weren’t really Christians.

At one point I wrote out the list of “Works” of a true Christian. I don’t wish to take the time to find it right now, but it included the following “Works”:

Homeschooling, with Christian schooling an acceptable second-best. Public schools are only allowable if there is absolutely no money, but this means that you are probably living out of God’s will because true Christians will be good stewards of money and God will bless them with all that they need.

(BTW, our children were in a private, secular prep school that cost a megafortune in tuition. So we were totally out of God’s will because we were throwing away God’s money into the coffers of a Godless secular organization!)

No TV in the home. If you do allow TV, no shows other than “Christy”, “Andy Griffith” and “Little House” reruns,

No secular newspapers or magazines. NO secular source of news. Trust only the “Christian” news sources, e.g., 700 Club.

No movies except G-rated (except for Disney movies because the company promotes homosexuality).

No live theater unless it’s produced in one of the local Christian schools, and then, only if the play is “cleaned up.”

No books unless they are “Christian” books produced by “Christian” authors. Madeleine L’Engle is allowed but only with parental supervision and intervention because of her “ecumenicalism.”

Christian contemporary music only, with traditional Christian music an acceptable, although questionable alternative mainly for elderly people so they won’t leave the church. (Any kind of “tradition” stifles the new work of the Holy Spirit.)

Christians do not ever watch “The Simpsons” or “Saturday Night Live,” but rather, are disgusted by such filthy, worldly shows.

Halloween is totally of the devil and there is absolutely no way a true Christian can have anything to do with it. Same for any kind of horror or monsters or ghosts, except for Frank Peretti–he’s cool.

Do not mix with people from other churches, as they are preaching a false Gospel. This applies to pro-life activities, too. Helping out the local Pregancy Life Care Center or getting involved with Right To Life or participating in the “LifeChain” will compromise your Christian faith and expose you to dangerous and false theology. Praying in front of an abortion clinic is dangerous, too, because of the Rosaries (idolatry).

Tony Campolo is a false Christian because he uses the “s” word (the potty word). So are other Christians like him who place a great deal of importance on “social gospel” (feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc.)

If James Dobson endorses it, it’s OK for Christians. Billy Graham is not so trustworthy because some of his theology is too ecumenical, but he’s still somewhat respectable because of all his past successes in evangelism.

Most important of all, a true Christian faithfully maintains a daily Quiet Time (Daily Devotional, Morning Watch, Altar, etc.), during which they pray and read the Bible. The best time to do this is the early A.M, which may mean losing sleep, but even if you are a young parent with babies, you should do it anyway. Any Christian who does not have a daily Quiet Time should seriously consider whether they are truly a born-again Christian, because a true born-again Christian will long for time of prayer and Bible reading and not be able to go about their day until they have their Quiet Time. If you miss your Quiet Time, nothing will go right and you will fall into sin.

etc. I believe the list I wrote out had 17 “works” on it, all of which were “necessary” for “true Christians.”

Although I have written some of these with a slight “Tongue In Cheek” approach, I am deadly serious. This list is not written out, but is expected of Christians in many Protestant churches. My husband and I recognized that this was a “theology of works, not faith” and got in some little trouble for protesting it. When we began studying the Catholic Church, we recognized that a true theology of faith was taught.

 

[rr1213]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years and came into the Catholic Church April 10, 2004…At one point I wrote out the list of “Works” of a true Christian. I don’t wish to take the time to find it right now, but it included the following “Works”:

Homeschooling, with Christian schooling an acceptable second-best. Public schools are only allowable if there is absolutely no money, but this means that you are probably living out of God’s will because true Christians will be good stewards of money and God will bless them with all that they need.

(BTW, our children were in a private, secular prep school that cost a megafortune in tuition. So we were totally out of God’s will because we were throwing away God’s money into the coffers of a Godless secular organization!)

No TV in the home. If you do allow TV, no shows other than “Christy”, “Andy Griffith” and “Little House” reruns,

No secular newspapers or magazines. NO secular source of news. Trust only the “Christian” news sources, e.g., 700 Club.

No movies except G-rated (except for Disney movies because the company promotes homosexuality).

No live theater unless it’s produced in one of the local Christian schools, and then, only if the play is “cleaned up.”

No books unless they are “Christian” books produced by “Christian” authors. Madeleine L’Engle is allowed but only with parental supervision and intervention because of her “ecumenicalism.”

Christian contemporary music only, with traditional Christian music an acceptable, although questionable alternative mainly for elderly people so they won’t leave the church. (Any kind of “tradition” stifles the new work of the Holy Spirit.)

Christians do not ever watch “The Simpsons” or “Saturday Night Live,” but rather, are disgusted by such filthy, worldly shows.

Halloween is totally of the devil and there is absolutely no way a true Christian can have anything to do with it. Same for any kind of horror or monsters or ghosts, except for Frank Peretti–he’s cool.

Do not mix with people from other churches, as they are preaching a false Gospel. This applies to pro-life activities, too. Helping out the local Pregancy Life Care Center or getting involved with Right To Life or participating in the “LifeChain” will compromise your Christian faith and expose you to dangerous and false theology. Praying in front of an abortion clinic is dangerous, too, because of the Rosaries (idolatry).

Tony Campolo is a false Christian because he uses the “s” word (the potty word). So are other Christians like him who place a great deal of importance on “social gospel” (feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc.)

If James Dobson endorses it, it’s OK for Christians. Billy Graham is not so trustworthy because some of his theology is too ecumenical, but he’s still somewhat respectable because of all his past successes in evangelism.

Most important of all, a true Christian faithfully maintains a daily Quiet Time (Daily Devotional, Morning Watch, Altar, etc.), during which they pray and read the Bible. The best time to do this is the early A.M, which may mean losing sleep, but even if you are a young parent with babies, you should do it anyway. Any Christian who does not have a daily Quiet Time should seriously consider whether they are truly a born-again Christian, because a true born-again Christian will long for time of prayer and Bible reading and not be able to go about their day until they have their Quiet Time. If you miss your Quiet Time, nothing will go right and you will fall into sin.

etc. I believe the list I wrote out had 17 “works” on it, all of which were “necessary” for “true Christians.”

Although I have written some of these with a slight “Tongue In Cheek” approach, I am deadly serious. This list is not written out, but is expected of Christians in many Protestant churches. My husband and I recognized that this was a “theology of works, not faith” and got in some little trouble for protesting it. When we began studying the Catholic Church, we recognized that a true theology of faith was taught.

Wow, that’s a pretty fundamentalist-looking listing. What Church did you belong to prior to converting to the Catholic Church?

 

[Cat]

The final Protestant church that we belonged to was an Evangelical Free Church in America.

Before that, we belonged to a Conference Baptist Church, a Reformed Church in America, a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church, a Southern Baptist Church, and a Christian church. I grew up Conference Baptist, and my husband grew up Assemblies of God.

We spent anywhere from two to ten years at each of the above denominations. The reasons we moved were usually because of a geographical move. But in the final ten years before Catholicism, we shifted churches four times because of differences with the teaching, the pastor, or the congregation. The final church (the EFree church) actually kicked us out (there was a tribunal and we were condemned–it was all very medieval and horrible).

It was extremely painful to be constantly on the move, and my younger daughter has no memory of a “good” church.

I would say that my list of “Works” was most obvious in the EFree church, which we now believe was somewhat “warped” and even approaching “cultic,” but I think I can safely say that the same “Works” were expected at almost all the Protestant churches we were part of except for the Reformed Church, which is mainline and more “liberal” than the other Protestant churches.

Interestingly, none of these denoms are considered “fundamentalist” denoms.

 

[anamchara]

When I was in the Assemblies of God we didn’t look at our “traditions” in the same light as those of the Catholic Church. To us what we did was “Bible-based” and what the Catholics held as traditions were the “traditions of men” warned against in the Bible.

It’s very easy to have blind spots when condemning what others practice/believe. I guess all of us ought to take to heart Jesus’ words when he said, “Take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

Della, always wise words nice to see you posting in here.

(neeners)

 

[reggieM]

My husband and I were quite upset because we didn’t produce many of the “Works” on the list, and certain people in our church seemed to think that we weren’t really Christians.

That was very eye-opening. Thanks. I have seen and heard little bits and pieces of those Works from Protestants but it was quite amazing to see them all put together like that.

God has really given us wonderful freedom within the Catholic Faith. The things we are bound to observe are reasonable. Demanding sometimes, but not extreme and stifling. We’re also free to take on more penances at times, but we can not use our practices as a way of judging other Catholics.

It really shows Catholicism as a universal faith – with so much wisdom gained from centuries past. There is room for all kinds of people and our spiritual path to God can be lived in many different ways – but unified by the Mass and the Sacraments (not by what TV shows we watch or what songs we like).

It’s also amazing to see how much control many fundamentalist churches want to have over their flock. That shouldn’t happen with the OSAS teaching, but there’s always that catch – if you don’t do what the preacher says, then maybe you’re not even a Christian! That is a very unstable way of life. The security that is promised is actually non-existent and a person has to wonder at any time if they’re even a Christian believer at all.

 

[Jared123]

Protestant don’t have any unity. They will say it is the Bible, but I can go to 3 different Protstant Churchs and have the Pastor read the same passage in the bible and give 3 different meanings. This is why we have Protestant churches voting on the roll of homosexuals in their Church (this is tearing the Anglicans in half right now). Some Protestant Churches are o.k. with abortion, you can find this in the Methodist Church. Some are o.k. with women pastors. All are o.k. with contraception of some form or another. I was born and raised a Baptist and my entire family still are, I converted to Catholicism. So I have seen both sides of the fence. I can walk into any Catholic Church in the world tomorrow and the mass will basically be the same. No other religious denomination in the world can say this. The Catholic Church truely is universal just as Christ intended when he establised his One Church in Mathew 16:18-19.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You see, Protestants don’t believe in salvation through works, **but they do believe a true Christian WILL perform works out of gratefulness to God. ** If a person does not produce these “works,” then they are not truly a Christian, because a true Christian will be so grateful to God that the “works” will just overflow naturally.

This is not even completely true (the part I bolded). Although good works should be a result of salvation, 1 Corinthians and Romans talk about salvation and justification by faith without works and about how even if one’s works are ALL burned up at the judgement seat of Christ that person will still be saved. Bottom line is…salvation and justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Praise God.

P.S. I’m not even going to comment on that other stuff.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

“Verse 15 poses another problem for you. Paul says that those who built with both materials will suffer loss but will still receive their reward. In order to receive the reward, the person must pass through fire. This fire purges the person of the defects which led to the bad works in the first place. The Greek for “suffer loss” refers to a punishment through expiation. In your theology, there is no place for a post-death punishment by fire process before a person is saved. This isn’t about receiving “less rewards” because the person STILL receives the reward (which is salvation). Yet the saved person first receives a fiery expiation for their sins after their death.”

**Will comment on this one now (from 1Cor.3:15). I was going ot use this verse to support my position too. lol Here’s how:

Notice how it says “he himself will be saved”. This means that possessing not one single good work to his name, a believer will still be saved. This fire is the judgement seat of Christ, the same fire that judges the believers works in the preceding verses. No believer is thrown into fire or purgatory; there works are judged by fire (which is just symbolism for the holiness of God). God, who is holy, will look upon their works and know if they were done for Christ’s glory or not. It’s as simple as that. Happy new year.**

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Protestant don’t have any unity. They will say it is the Bible, but I can go to 3 different Protstant Churchs and have the Pastor read the same passage in the bible and give 3 different meanings. This is why we have Protestant churches voting on the roll of homosexuals in their Church (this is tearing the Anglicans in half right now). Some Protestant Churches are o.k. with abortion, you can find this in the Methodist Church. Some are o.k. with women pastors. All are o.k. with contraception of some form or another. I was born and raised a Baptist and my entire family still are, I converted to Catholicism. So I have seen both sides of the fence. I can walk into any Catholic Church in the world tomorrow and the mass will basically be the same. No other religious denomination in the world can say this. The Catholic Church truely is universal just as Christ intended when he establised his One Church in Mathew 16:18-19.

This does not prove Sola Scriptura wrong. It proves that three different groups got it wrong somewhere. That can happen at times, considering we are still humans living in a fallen world. Now we see through a glass darkly…

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Cat, I was in a hurry this morning. As I’ve read your post over again I realize I misunderstood you. You were talking about works you supposedly had to do that were placed upon you by others. They were wrong…all of that stuff is garbage. I’m glad you don’t accept it.

However, I do want to ask why you confronted them about it and got in some trouble? I think you did the right thing but Catholics don’t believe in challenging false doctrine. They just accept whatever is told them by “Holy Mother Church”…or at least I’ve gotten that impression in my short time on this site. I’ve gotten the impression that protestants were wrong and we should accept whatever the “magisterium” says even if it is wrong.

 

[Cat]

Quote from hoosierdaddy:
"This is not even completely true (the part I bolded). Although good works should be a result of salvation, 1 Corinthians and Romans talk about salvation and justification by faith without works and about how even if one’s works are ALL burned up at the judgement seat of Christ that person will still be saved. Bottom line is…salvation and justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Praise God.
P.S. I’m not even going to comment on that other stuff. "

hoosierdaddy, here is a quote from R.C. Sproul’s THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST: AN EVANGELICAL CELEBRATION" IS COPYRIGHT 1999 BY THE COMMITTEE ON EVANGELICAL UNITY IN THE GOSPEL, P.O. BOX 5551, GLENDALE HEIGHTS, IL 60139-5551

1. We affirm that saving faith results in sanctification, the transformation of life in growing conformity to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification means ongoing repentance, a life of turning from sin to serve Jesus Christ in grateful reliance on him as one’s Lord and Master (Gal. 5:22-25; Rom. 8:4, 13-14).
   We reject any view of justification which divorces it from our sanctifying union with Christ and our increasing conformity to his image through prayer, repentance, cross-bearing, and life in the Spirit.

(Boldface is mine).

hoosierdaddy, if you or others want to read the entire very interesting document that summarized evangelical Protestant teaching, here is the link to the site on Ligonier Ministries, Pastor R.C. Sproul’s excellent website:

ligonier.org/thegospel_affirmations.php

hoosierdaddy,I spent over 40 years in evangelical churches, years in which I was actively involved in many ministries several days or evenings a week. Every church I was in taught what Pastor Sproul said above, mainly that good works are the result of salvation, and that if a person does not produce good works, their Christianity is questionable.

I respectfully maintain that most evangelical Protestant churches do not interpret the passages in Romans and I Corinthians as you apparently do.

Yes, we were taught that if works are performed for personal glory rather than the glory of God, that they will be burned up as chaff. But that is a long way from saying that a Christian will never produce any “works” and still be able to call themselves a Christian and claim kinship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I respectfully direct your attention to John 14: 21, I John 2: 3-5, James 4: 8, and Matthew 25: 31-46.

And I hope that you will comment on “the other stuff.” If I am incorrect, I would prefer to be corrected openly rather than sneered at privately. Thank you.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Quote from hoosierdaddy:
"This is not even completely true (the part I bolded). Although good works should be a result of salvation, 1 Corinthians and Romans talk about salvation and justification by faith without works and about how even if one’s works are ALL burned up at the judgement seat of Christ that person will still be saved. Bottom line is…salvation and justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Praise God.
P.S. I’m not even going to comment on that other stuff. "

hoosierdaddy, here is a quote from R.C. Sproul’s THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST: AN EVANGELICAL CELEBRATION" IS COPYRIGHT 1999 BY THE COMMITTEE ON EVANGELICAL UNITY IN THE GOSPEL, P.O. BOX 5551, GLENDALE HEIGHTS, IL 60139-5551

1. We affirm that saving faith results in sanctification, the transformation of life in growing conformity to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification means ongoing repentance, a life of turning from sin to serve Jesus Christ in grateful reliance on him as one’s Lord and Master (Gal. 5:22-25; Rom. 8:4, 13-14).
   We reject any view of justification which divorces it from our sanctifying union with Christ and our increasing conformity to his image through prayer, repentance, cross-bearing, and life in the Spirit.

(Boldface is mine).

hoosierdaddy, if you or others want to read the entire very interesting document that summarized evangelical Protestant teaching, here is the link to the site on Ligonier Ministries, Pastor R.C. Sproul’s excellent website:

ligonier.org/thegospel_affirmations.php

hoosierdaddy,I spent over 40 years in evangelical churches, years in which I was actively involved in many ministries several days or evenings a week. Every church I was in taught what Pastor Sproul said above, mainly that good works are the result of salvation, and that if a person does not produce good works, their Christianity is questionable.

I respectfully maintain that most evangelical Protestant churches do not interpret the passages in Romans and I Corinthians as you apparently do.

**I don’t appreciate the patronizing. It looks as if you don’t interpret the Bible the way many Catholics do as well then. **

Yes, we were taught that if works are performed for personal glory rather than the glory of God, that they will be burned up as chaff. But that is a long way from saying that a Christian will never produce any “works” and still be able to call themselves a Christian and claim kinship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It’s also a long way from saying anything about purgatory isn’t it? I never said a Christian would never produce any works. I said a Christian should, however, if he doesn’t, he is still saved…by faith. If he were to “work” it would cease to be by faith and it would cease to be “grace”…as scripture explicitly teaches.

I respectfully direct your attention to John 14: 21, I John 2: 3-5, James 4: 8, and Matthew 25: 31-46.

And I hope that you will comment on “the other stuff.” If I am incorrect, I would prefer to be corrected openly rather than sneered at privately. Thank you.

**What? Did you not read my explanation and clarification? I never sneered at you but if you want to slander me, have at it. Got more? **

 

[Cat]

hoosierdaddy, your post had not been posted yet while I was writing my post. So I never saw your explanation and clarification. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I’m sorry if my use of the word “sneer” upset you. It’s the best word I could think of. Please allow me to use a word picture to explain the way your statement “I’m not even going to comment on the other stuff” made me feel.

I felt like a teenager in crowded school hallway, where a couple of other teenagers are standing next to a locker room pointing at me and talking about me behind their hands. They won’t tell me what they’re talking about, so I don’t know if I have a bloodstain on my bottom, a booger hanging off my nose, or if they are jealous of me because I got a good grade and they didn’t. Their refusal to address me, to discuss their objections to me, alienates me from them and makes me feel lowly.

Perhaps this wasn’t your intention at all, but sir, that’s the way my feelings were after reading your sentence. Remember, sir, I am a woman, and if you’ve ever read James Dobson or Gary Smalley (Gary Smalley was a pastor in one of my evangelical churches, BTW), you will know that women react with their feelings and there’s not a whole lot men can do about that other than have compassion and be careful to always treat women as the weaker sex, as the Bible directs.

hoosierdaddy, when you cut off communication with someone by saying something like “I won’t even comment,” that makes it sound like the other person is so far off the wall that their opinion is doo-doo.

Again, this may not be your intent, but it’s how it sounds–not very nice. To me, it’s “sneering” at someone. Perhaps that’s not the nicest word either, but I can’t think of a more accurate word. Forgive me for my inadequate vocabulary.

If you take the time to read the rest of Pastor Sproul’s document, you will find a passage in which he says, “We should debate differences in doctrine.” I tried to respond to you with as much respect as I could, but I had a difficult time with the “I won’t even comment…” sentence. Forgive me for taking offense if none was intended.

And sir, why is it “patronizing” for me to describe my background and church education credentials and to state that my Protestant churches did not teach justification the same way you have learned it? You didn’t know me from Adam, so I was merely trying to explain who I was and where I came from. That’s not patronizing, that’s communicating.

Perhaps if I knew your Protestant background, I would understand why you believe the way you do about the New Testament passages. Again, sir, I repeat that your interpretation is not the way the many Protestant churches interpret these passages. That is not patronizing, that is a statement of fact.

BTW, this is one of the many reasons I couldn’t remain Protestant. This discussion is an illustration of the differences in interpretation of the Bible between Protestants. We’re talking about a serious issue, not a fringe issue like “should a man have long hair?” or “should churches use instruments in their music?”

This is an issue of ETERNAL SALVATION, and yet, Protestant are in disagreement! hoosierdaddy, you prove FROM THE BIBLE that a Christian can go to heaven with no works, while Pastor Sproul (and many other pastors) prove FROM THE BIBLE that faith without works is dead.

hoosierdaddy, you said that it looks like I don’t interpret the Bible like many Catholics do. **Sir, I am in submission to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and therefore, my interpretation of the Bible matches what the Catholic Church teaches. *According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Catholics are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ. * **

I am going to go out on a limb here–please correct me if I am wrong. It sounds to me like you believe that Catholics have a “works-based” theology, in which we have to stack up enough “good works” (e.g., Holy Communions, prayers, almsgiving, etc.) to outweigh our “sins,” and if the scale tips in favor of “good works,” we will earn our way to heaven.

hoosierdaddy, Is this what you believe Catholic salvation doctrine is?

This is not what Catholics believe about salvation at all.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

hoosierdaddy, your post had not been posted yet while I was writing my post. So I never saw your explanation and clarification. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Hi Cat, thank you for your explanation. I am sorry myself. I didn’t know my post hadn’t been up yet.

I understand what you’re saying because I’ve been there. I am truly sorry. My statement was directed at the teachings that you listed and not directed at you personally. Talking in person you may have realized that but it’s very hard to communicate on here. And then when I realized that you were listing teachings that were forced upon you I was rather angry because I fear that garbage lead you into a church that I’m not convinced as of this moment believes the gospel.

**No, it wasn’t my intention at all. I tend to react with my feelings at times and I’m a man. I hear what you’re saying though. **

hoosierdaddy, when you cut off communication with someone by saying something like “I won’t even comment,” that makes it sound like the other person is so far off the wall that their opinion is doo-doo.

I realize that. That is one reason I modified my post because I thought you may feel like that. I don’t want to make anyone feel like that, especially kind people who don’t try to make me feel like that.

Again, this may not be your intent, but it’s how it sounds–not very nice. To me, it’s “sneering” at someone. Perhaps that’s not the nicest word either, but I can’t think of a more accurate word. Forgive me for my inadequate vocabulary.

Understood. Nothing to forgive.

If you take the time to read the rest of Pastor Sproul’s document, you will find a passage in which he says, “We should debate differences in doctrine.” I tried to respond to you with as much respect as I could, but I had a difficult time with the “I won’t even comment…” sentence. Forgive me for taking offense if none was intended.

No problem. I myself am a man, and when something is straightened out well, it’s over.

And sir, why is it “patronizing” for me to describe my background and church education credentials and to state that my Protestant churches did not teach justification the same way you have learned it? You didn’t know me from Adam, so I was merely trying to explain who I was and where I came from. That’s not patronizing, that’s communicating.

Like you, it was just the feeling that I got. Especially when I didn’t know that you hadn’t yet seen my edited post. I thought you had ignored it and just went on the attack.

This is an issue of ETERNAL SALVATION, and yet, Protestant are in disagreement! hoosierdaddy, you prove FROM THE BIBLE that a Christian can go to heaven with no works, while Pastor Sproul (and many other pastors) prove FROM THE BIBLE that faith without works is dead.

I understand. In fact, the differing beliefs within Protestantism has made me angry to the point of despair at times. That is one reason I decided to search out Catholicism; because I already know that they are a big church with one set of doctrines throughout the whole church(even though I have been told that they’ve changed through the years).

hoosierdaddy, you said that it looks like I don’t interpret the Bible like many Catholics do. **Sir, I am in submission to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and therefore, my interpretation of the Bible matches what the Catholic Church teaches. *According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Catholics are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ. ***

**But then they turn around and say you have to do good works to be saved. I believe we should be in submission to God and the Scriptures and hold the church accountable to both. There is a limited submission to the church because if the church goes way off doctrinally we are to attempt to get it back on the straight path or we are to leave it. So submission to the church is third in the list of priorities according to my beliefs. **

I am going to go out on a limb here–please correct me if I am wrong. It sounds to me like you believe that Catholics have a “works-based” theology, in which we have to stack up enough “good works” (e.g., Holy Communions, prayers, almsgiving, etc.) to outweigh our “sins,” and if the scale tips in favor of “good works,” we will earn our way to heaven.

hoosierdaddy, Is this what you believe Catholic salvation doctrine is?

Yes.

This is not what Catholics believe about salvation at all.

Catholics themselves make it appear to be this way. For example, missing Mass a “mortal sin”? We’re saved by faith, not by attending church. This is just one example and I’m not even going to expand on it because the moderator will just delete it. Thank you for the discussion; I hope we can continue it. I had to edit out some of your paragraphs because it wouldn’t let me post. It said it was too long.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Perhaps you could tell us what Protestant denomination you are referring to? There’s no teaching in my church that says “Once saved always saved”. Could you please explain how you understand this frase?

Around here, anyway, that would be Southern Baptist. That is basic. No question about it, and it’s meant literally. Might be different elsewhere, even with Southern Baptists, but I think this is basic Southern Baptist doctrine everywhere.

Now, some will say that if you enter into an evil life, it means your “being saved” didn’t really “take”, but I think that is an infiltration from other Baptist groups’ beliefs, not truly Southern Baptist. Most Southern Baptists around here will tell you it makes no difference what you do later, you’re still saved.

 

[Cat]

hoosierdaddy, I’m sorry I haven’t responded yet. Now that I’m back at work, there’s not as much online time.

I’m glad you’re studying Catholicism. Even if you never end up converting to Catholicism like I did, at least you will have a correct understanding of Catholic dogma. God bless you!

That’s one reason my husband and I enjoy reading and listening to Pastor R.C. Sproul. He is a Protestant and believes that Catholicism is flawed. But we have never found anything that Pastor Sproul has mistated about Catholicism. He is always correct in his statements about Catholicism and even corrects other Protestants who have misconceptions about Catholicism.

Except for one thing!—

Pastor Sproul’s problem with Catholicism is with the doctrine of “merit.” My husband has listened to Pastor Sproul many times on this subject, and my husband believes that Pastor Sproul does not have a correct understanding of “merit.” Hopefully he will eventually come to a correct understanding of the doctrine.

hoosierdaddy, I think that your understanding of mortal sin and salvation by faith is not total. I hope you will continue to study so that you will develop a correct understanding of Catholic teaching on this and other issues.

 

[estesbob]

You’d be right. I don’t agree with that. No deed can get us into heaven. That is blasphemous against Christ and His work to suggest otherwise.

I thought you had to accept him as your personal savior before you got to go to heaven. Isnt that a deed? Are you guilty of Blasphemy?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

When I was in the Assemblies of God we didn’t look at our “traditions” in the same light as those of the Catholic Church. To us what we did was “Bible-based” and what the Catholics held as traditions were the “traditions of men” warned against in the Bible.

This is similar to what my church believes and I how I view the CC because of it. I belong to a congregational church in southern MO.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I thought you had to accept him as your personal savior before you got to go to heaven. Isnt that a deed? Are you guilty of Blasphemy?

You do have to.

The Bible teaches that.

It’s not a deed. Faith is a gift, given by God.

No, I’m not guilty of blasphemy.