Protestant have their own traditions and doctrines

[hoosierdaddy]

hoosierdaddy, I’m sorry I haven’t responded yet. Now that I’m back at work, there’s not as much online time.

I’m glad you’re studying Catholicism. Even if you never end up converting to Catholicism like I did, at least you will have a correct understanding of Catholic dogma. God bless you!

That’s one reason my husband and I enjoy reading and listening to Pastor R.C. Sproul. He is a Protestant and believes that Catholicism is flawed. But we have never found anything that Pastor Sproul has mistated about Catholicism. He is always correct in his statements about Catholicism and even corrects other Protestants who have misconceptions about Catholicism.

Except for one thing!—

Pastor Sproul’s problem with Catholicism is with the doctrine of “merit.” My husband has listened to Pastor Sproul many times on this subject, and my husband believes that Pastor Sproul does not have a correct understanding of “merit.” Hopefully he will eventually come to a correct understanding of the doctrine.

hoosierdaddy, I think that your understanding of mortal sin and salvation by faith is not total. I hope you will continue to study so that you will develop a correct understanding of Catholic teaching on this and other issues.

Hi Cat, maybe my understanding is not total. In fact, it probably isn’t.

I too like Sproul. He was my introduction to Calvinism and if you guys on here think I’m bad (well, one guy does) you should have seen my reaction to Calvinism and my journey into learning about it.

Thank you for the kind words too. God bless you. I wish you a very wonderful new year.

 

[estesbob]

You do have to.

The Bible teaches that.

It’s not a deed. Faith is a gift, given by God.

No, I’m not guilty of blasphemy.

I dont understand. If Jesus’s sacrifice was complete why would I have to do ANYTHING to get me into Heaven? OTH if i have to accept Jesus as my Savior how is that dfferent than any other “deed” we are called upon to do in scripture. Either nothing is required of us OR everyting is on the table. you can’t have it both ways.

Can you give us the Scripture cite for where it says we are saved by Faith ALONE. I would espcailly like to see where the “ALONE” part is used.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I dont understand. If Jesus’s sacrifice was complete why would I have to do ANYTHING to get me into Heaven? OTH if i have to accept Jesus as my Savior how is that dfferent than any other “deed” we are called upon to do in scripture. Either nothing is required of us OR everyting is on the table. you can’t have it both ways.

Can you give us the Scripture cite for where it says we are saved by Faith ALONE. I would espcailly like to see where the “ALONE” part is used.

Romans 3:19-24
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5:1, 11:6
Galatians 3:6
Ephesians 2:5, 3:7
Philippians 3:9
Titus 2:11, 3:7
I Timothy 1:14

That’s all the scripture I know on the subject.

 

[estesbob]

Romans 3:19-24
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5:1, 11:6
Galatians 3:6
Ephesians 2:5, 3:7
Philippians 3:9
Titus 2:11, 3:7
I Timothy 1:14

That’s all the scripture I know on the subject.

Thanks for the document dump. Where is the “alone” found in these?

 

[Damascus]

I am furiously looking for the formula in the Bible that says:

Say these words:

“I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, blah blah blah, bingo!”

I am sure its because I need to read the bible more. I hear the bible has it all in there spelled out for us. I will be back, only a couple thousand pages to go…

Geeze. this sounds like a “work” to me… I actually have to DO something for something to happen for me? Uh boy. Now what do I do? I was told works are bad.

Back to the bible again…

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Thanks for the document dump. Where is the “alone” found in these?

Romans 5
1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2
through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

I don’t see any words next to faith so it looks like faith is sufficient.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I am furiously looking for the formula in the Bible that says:

Say these words:

“I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, blah blah blah, bingo!”

I am sure its because I need to read the bible more. I hear the bible has it all in there spelled out for us. I will be back, only a couple thousand pages to go…

Geeze. this sounds like a “work” to me… I actually have to DO something for something to happen for me? Uh boy. Now what do I do? I was told works are bad.

Back to the bible again…

I know you’re being sarcastic but I missed your point. What’s your point?

 

[Damascus]

I know you’re being sarcastic but I missed your point. What’s your point?

I wish I were being sarcastic. It was an all too serious reality I had to face when I woke up from my spiritual coma years ago.

Please dont mock me, its a very painful memory that Thank the Lord with his help, I recovered from.

The Angels in Heaven all rejocing when I did… makes me want to cry again…

But then, I would get my bible all wet and I am only on page 1100.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I wish I were being sarcastic. It was an all too serious reality I had to face when I woke up from my spiritual coma years ago.

Please dont mock me, its a very painful memory that Thank the Lord with his help, I recovered from.

The Angels in Heaven all rejocing when I did… makes me want to cry again…

But then, I would get my bible all wet and I am only on page 1100.

Not trying to mock you, just understand.

 

[estesbob]

Romans 5
1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2
through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

I don’t see any words next to faith so it looks like faith is sufficient.

I dont see the words “alone” next to Faith so it appears that faith is not sufficient in and of itself. Catholics do not dipute at all that we are justified by faith HOWEVER it is clear from Scripture that faith “alone” is not enough.

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I dont see the words “alone” next to Faith so it appears that faith is not sufficient in and of itself. Catholics do not dipute at all that we are justified by faith HOWEVER it is clear from Scripture that faith “alone” is not enough.

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith is enough to earn salvation and the “works” that are referenced go hand in hand with Faith but aren’t necessary for salvation.
If you have true Faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and followed Him, you (hopefully) would be helping your fellow neighbor do the same, hence you’d be doing good works.
Say you live in an isolated environment where people were scarce. Would you be condemned to Hell if you lived your whole life believing in God but couldn’t do any good works because there was no other people around?

 

[estesbob]

Faith is enough to earn salvation and the “works” that are referenced go hand in hand with Faith but aren’t necessary for salvation.
If you have true Faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and followed Him, you (hopefully) would be helping your fellow neighbor do the same, hence you’d be doing good works.
Say you live in an isolated environment where people were scarce. Would you be condemned to Hell if you lived your whole life believing in God but couldn’t do any good works because there was no other people around?

Thats not what James said and that is not the message one gets when they read Scripture in its entirety rather than pull out random New Testament verses(often out of context) to try and advance the false Doctrine of Sola Fidelis. Christ made it possible for me to get to heaven-there is no way i can do it on my own. But I will not get to to heaven if I reject Christ-either by sinning or ignoring his admonitions to live a good life and care care for my fellow man.

No one lives in a vacumn as in the examole you give above. But as Jesus pointed out in Mathew 5:28 one can sin in their throughts as well as in their deeds.

As long as we are Mathew 5 I believe it is impossible to reconcile Sola Fidelis with these words of Jesus:

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NIV-23257b”)]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Thats not what James said and that is not the message one gets when they read Scripture in its entirety rather than pull out random New Testament verses(often out of context) to try and advance the false Doctrine of Sola Fidelis. Christ made it possible for me to get to heaven-there is no way i can do it on my own. But I will not get to to heaven if I reject Christ-either by sinning or ignoring his admonitions to live a good life and care care for my fellow man.

No one lives in a vacumn as in the examole you give above. But as Jesus pointed out in Mathew 5:28 one can sin in their throughts as well as in their deeds.

As long as we are Mathew 5 I believe it is impossible to reconcile Sola Fidelis with these words of Jesus:

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NIV-23257b”)]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

How do you know some people don’t live in an isolated environment or small town where their contact with people is minimal and it’s impossible to do good works on a daily basis?
My parents live in a small town and they never get out, as they are not in good health. What about those folks? What if they had faith in Jesus Christ but couldn’t get out to do good works?
I know that the examples I’m using don’t happen to the average joe but it happens more often than we think, especially those of us who live in large cities and work with folks on a daily basis.

 

[estesbob]

How do you know some people don’t live in an isolated environment or small town where their contact with people is minimal and it’s impossible to do good works on a daily basis?
My parents live in a small town and they never get out, as they are not in good health. What about those folks? What if they had faith in Jesus Christ but couldn’t get out to do good works?
I know that the examples I’m using don’t happen to the average joe but it happens more often than we think, especially those of us who live in large cities and work with folks on a daily basis.

If a person strives to keep themselves from sinning, repents and confesses when they do they will be fine regardless of how many people live around them.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

If a person strives to keep themselves from sinning, repents and confesses when they do they will be fine regardless of how many people live around them.

And that is precisely what Faith is.

 

[estesbob]

And that is precisely what Faith is.

But NOT Faith Alone.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

But NOT Faith Alone.

Let’s just agree to disagree because as a Catholic versus a Protestant, we’ll never agree on that one.

 

[Kay_Cee]

How do you know some people don’t live in an isolated environment or small town where their contact with people is minimal and it’s impossible to do good works on a daily basis?
My parents live in a small town and they never get out, as they are not in good health. What about those folks? What if they had faith in Jesus Christ but couldn’t get out to do good works?
I know that the examples I’m using don’t happen to the average joe but it happens more often than we think, especially those of us who live in large cities and work with folks on a daily basis.

God is not unreasonable. He does not expect anyone to do the impossible. But surely the house-bound are capable of praying for one another. Isn’t praying for another person a good work?

Even a man stranded alone on a desert island is capable of praying for others.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

God is not unreasonable. He does not expect anyone to do the impossible. But surely the house-bound are capable of praying for one another. Isn’t praying for another person a good work?

Even a man stranded alone on a desert island is capable of praying for others.

Good works are fine, just not necessary for salvation.

 

[estesbob]

Good works are fine, just not necessary for salvation.

Is James Letter in the Protestant Bible? Quite frankly I am always amazed how one who defends Sola Fidelis always come up with all sorts of verses that dont prove their point but ignore the clear unequivocable word of James, Christ and just about everyone else mentioned in the Bible.