Protestant have their own traditions and doctrines

[Damascus]

Good works are fine, just not necessary for salvation.

But they would flow naturally in a true follower of Christ. Sorry, I hardly think that you could get by for a lifetime Without doing good works if you truly Loved Jesus Christ! Why dig your heels in and say no- no! Works are not needed!
When Jesus said: when you do these things for the least of me you do them for ME.

So He does not count? Did he say its Optional?
You can do good works by doing your life to the best it can be - ie: mother being best mother/wife whatever!

You can help strangers unless you live on an island, please stop giving yourself excuses to do the minimum and deprive yourself of sharing in his Love by expressing it FULLY.

Come on, minimum sacraments, minimum bible and now minimum standards for salvation??

Get the MAX take it to a higher level!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

But they would flow naturally in a true follower of Christ.

Exactly!!! I couldn’t agree more!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Is James Letter in the Protestant Bible? Quite frankly I am always amazed how one who defends Sola Fidelis always come up with all sorts of verses that dont prove their point but ignore the clear unequivocable word of James, Christ and just about everyone else mentioned in the Bible.

Yes, James’ Letter is in my Bible. I use the New American Bible for study.
I’ve read the letter of James and I understand what is said. We see what James said as works are good, if done for the honor and glory of God, but they aren’t necessary for salvation.
I do volunteer work in the community but I do it for the honor and glory of God, not to make myself feel good or hoping to earn “brownie points” in Heaven. Understand what I mean about how I view good works?

 

[estesbob]

Yes, James’ Letter is in my Bible. I use the New American Bible for study.
I’ve read the letter of James and I understand what is said. We see what James said as works are good, if done for the honor and glory of God, but they aren’t necessary for salvation.
I do volunteer work in the community but I do it for the honor and glory of God, not to make myself feel good or hoping to earn “brownie points” in Heaven. Understand what I mean about how I view good works?

If you commit a grevious sin and do not repent of it BUT still have Faith in Jesus Christ will you go to heaven?

 

[historyb]

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

James 2:20-26 DRC

We can see here that James is not say that works will just proceed from faith, but that they go hand in hand. I know Protestants, since I was one, only look at the last verse and verse 23 but looking at the whole thing it is easyily seen they are wrong

 

[Blue_Serenity]

If you commit a grevious sin and do not repent of it BUT still have Faith in Jesus Christ will you go to heaven?

If you purposely don’t repent and continue willfully your sinful ways then no, we believe you did not merit Heaven by offending God as such by your deliberate sinful ways.
If you died suddenly and didn’t have time to repent, we believe that you merit Heaven with the intentions of repenting.
As far as what actually takes place after you die, no one knows for sure the protocol of events at the pearly gates.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Yes, James’ Letter is in my Bible. I use the New American Bible for study.
I’ve read the letter of James and I understand what is said. We see what James said as works are good, if done for the honor and glory of God, but they aren’t necessary for salvation.

May I respectfully ask what you think James means when he uses the word “save” in 2:14?

I do volunteer work in the community but I do it for the honor and glory of God,

Terrific! That’s the Catholic view!

not to make myself feel good or hoping to earn “brownie points” in Heaven.

Such a thing is opposed to the Catholic view.

Understand what I mean about how I view good works?

I hope you also understand a bit better how we view good works.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

May I respectfully ask what you think James means when he uses the word “save” in 2:14?

Hi Kay Cee! Thanks for trying to understand my point of view on this.
James is encouraging the people to live their faith in the world and not just hold it privately in their hearts. We are encouraged to share our faith with those around us and essentially that means we’re doing good works for the honor and glory of God. We have to be careful because if we do good works to boast, which is referenced in Romans when Paul is talking about Abraham’s sacrifice, then we gain nothing, as our effort was in vain.
Kay Cee:

I hope you also understand a bit better how we view good works.

I do and I’m taking it all to heart. We have a weekly bible study at my church and I’m writing down this stuff to discuss with my pastor and others in the group.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Hi Kay Cee! Thanks for trying to understand my point of view on this.
James is encouraging the people to live their faith in the world and not just hold it privately in their hearts. We are encouraged to share our faith with those around us and essentially that means we’re doing good works for the honor and glory of God. We have to be careful because if we do good works to boast, which is referenced in Romans when Paul is talking about Abraham’s sacrifice, then we gain nothing, as our effort was in vain.

Thank you for responding. I too appreciate your efforts to understand the Catholic position. I think far too often it is misunderstood.

It looks like our positions are so close, it may just be a matter of semantics or misunderstanding that’s causing the confusion.

However, I didn’t see an answer to my question (either that or I didn’t get your answer.) What does James mean when he uses the word “save” in 2:14? I was expecting an answer like, “When James uses ‘save’ he means such and such.” Maybe I just need it spelled out a bit more.

Thank you so much!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Thank you for responding. I too appreciate your efforts to understand the Catholic position. I think far too often it is misunderstood.

It looks like our positions are so close, it may just be a matter of semantics or misunderstanding that’s causing the confusion.

However, I didn’t see an answer to my question (either that or I didn’t get your answer.) What does James mean when he uses the word “save” in 2:14? I was expecting an answer like, “When James uses ‘save’ he means such and such.” Maybe I just need it spelled out a bit more.

Thank you so much!

Thank you for being so nice to me. I really do appreciate it, as I’m here to learn about Catholics.
Our positions ARE very close. Instead of Tradition though, we lean on the Bible as our source of faith.
Ok, to answer the other question, it’s this paragraph I typed:
James is encouraging the people to live their faith in the world and not just hold it privately in their hearts. We are encouraged to share our faith with those around us and essentially that means we’re doing good works for the honor and glory of God. We have to be careful because if we do good works to boast, which is referenced in Romans when Paul is talking about Abraham’s sacrifice, then we gain nothing, as our effort was in vain.

 

[estesbob]

If you purposely don’t repent and continue willfully your sinful ways then no, we believe you did not merit Heaven by offending God as such by your deliberate sinful ways.
If you died suddenly and didn’t have time to repent, we believe that you merit Heaven with the intentions of repenting.
As far as what actually takes place after you die, no one knows for sure the protocol of events at the pearly gates.

It appears we are not that far apart. What about, however, one who has never been exposed to Christ but lives a life worthy of his teachings. Will he be saved? Or one who is exposed to Christ but because of his culture, upbringing,(what Our Church calls “invincible iignorance”) whatever can not bring himslef to believe BUT also lives a life worthy of Christs teachings? Our church beleives that salvation is possible in both cases.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

It appears we are not that far apart. What about, however, one who has never been exposed to Christ but lives a life worthy of his teachings. Will he be saved? Or one who is exposed to Christ but because of his culture, upbringing,(what Our Church calls “invincible iignorance”) whatever can not bring himslef to believe BUT also lives a life worthy of Christs teachings? Our church beleives that salvation is possible in both cases.

We believe that if one never knows Christ by no fault of his own is judged accordingly by God, since we do not what is in his heart.
One who is exposed to Christ but purposely turns his back to him, irregardless of circumstances, is denied salvation.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Thank you for being so nice to me. I really do appreciate it, as I’m here to learn about Catholics.
Our positions ARE very close. Instead of Tradition though, we lean on the Bible as our source of faith.

I do hope you did not mean to imply Catholics do not lean on the Bible as a source of faith. Of course we do. I might consider debating the issue, but what I’m really trying to do here is find out your position, not enter into a debate. I’m much more interested in finding common ground, and defining terms certainly helps with that.

Ok, to answer the other question, it’s this paragraph I typed:
James is encouraging the people to live their faith in the world and not just hold it privately in their hearts. We are encouraged to share our faith with those around us and essentially that means we’re doing good works for the honor and glory of God. We have to be careful because if we do good works to boast, which is referenced in Romans when Paul is talking about Abraham’s sacrifice, then we gain nothing, as our effort was in vain.

Yes, I saw this the first time you posted it, but I still don’t see how it answers the question, since it doesn’t mention the word ‘save.’

You’ll have to forgive me. I’m just getting over a very bad flu, and I’m taking care of two sick kids, so my energy level is low. I’m still pretty light-headed and not thinking as clearly as I usually do.

Perhaps it will help if I rephrase the question. When James uses the word ‘save’ is he referring to salvation? If not, then what does ‘save’ mean here?

Does that help?

BTW, I’d like to thank you for keeping this discussion civil. I hope everything I wrote makes sense because, as I indicated, I’m still not thinking all that clearly.

 

[artist3189]

Perhaps you could tell us what Protestant denomination you are referring to? There’s no teaching in my church that says “Once saved always saved”. Could you please explain how you understand this frase?

There’s a difference between Tradition and tradition, isn’t there? Only tradition is said to exist in Lutheran churches. Further, I would think that what type of music used in the Catholic mass is tradition, not Tradition.

That is exactly right on, in our Church, there is Tradition with a cap T and tradition with a small t.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I do hope you did not mean to imply Catholics do not lean on the Bible as a source of faith. Of course we do. I might consider debating the issue, but what I’m really trying to do here is find out your position, not enter into a debate. I’m much more interested in finding common ground, and defining terms certainly helps with that.

I understand and hope that we can find common ground. I don’t think we’re as off as we think.
Kay Cee:

You’ll have to forgive me. I’m just getting over a very bad flu, and I’m taking care of two sick kids, so my energy level is low. I’m still pretty light-headed and not thinking as clearly as I usually do.

I have two small boys and when one gets sick, the other usually does too. Be sure and realx and take it easy this weekend.
Kay Cee:

Perhaps it will help if I rephrase the question. When James uses the word ‘save’ is he referring to salvation? If not, then what does ‘save’ mean here?

Does that help?

Oh ok. Now I’m with you. When James uses the word “save” in 2:14, he is referring to salvation.
Kay Cee:

BTW, I’d like to thank you for keeping this discussion civil. I hope everything I wrote makes sense because, as I indicated, I’m still not thinking all that clearly.

You’re doing good. Sometimes my thinks in a completely different direction than it should and my health is just fine. I like to blame my two little boys sometimes because I feel like I go crazy keeping up with them all day!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

How do you know some people don’t live in an isolated environment or small town where their contact with people is minimal and it’s impossible to do good works on a daily basis?
My parents live in a small town and they never get out, as they are not in good health. What about those folks? What if they had faith in Jesus Christ but couldn’t get out to do good works?
I know that the examples I’m using don’t happen to the average joe but it happens more often than we think, especially those of us who live in large cities and work with folks on a daily basis.

Hi,
Living in Alaska comes to mind. Some people live so far from each other. Bad weather might further inhibit them from getting together. I am such a social person Im glad God blessed me living in a highly populated area.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I understand and hope that we can find common ground. I don’t think we’re as off as we think.

I agree. At least, I certainly hope that’s the case.

I have two small boys and when one gets sick, the other usually does too. Be sure and realx and take it easy this weekend.

I’ll try, thank you. What I really need is a nap!

Oh ok. Now I’m with you. When James uses the word “save” in 2:14, he is referring to salvation.

Okay, now we’re getting somewhere.

I think we would both agree that mere mental belief in the existence of God–which is a type of faith, albeit a very shallow one–is insufficient to be a saving faith. Even Satan believes that, and we could hardly call him saved.

That said, it seems to me (at least in my light-headed, dizzy condition), that there are levels of faith. There is at least a faith that does not save (as indicated above) and a faith that does.

My next question is: what attributes must a saving faith possess?

This, again, is just for a definition of terms.

Hope the above makes sense!

You’re doing good. Sometimes my thinks in a completely different direction than it should and my health is just fine. I like to blame my two little boys sometimes because I feel like I go crazy keeping up with them all day!

Well, God bless you and your boys! I’ve got two girls, both teens now, but even so it’s still work taking care of them when they’re both home sick.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I think we would both agree that mere mental belief in the existence of God–which is a type of faith, albeit a very shallow one–is insufficient to be a saving faith. Even Satan believes that, and we could hardly call him saved.

That said, it seems to me (at least in my light-headed, dizzy condition), that there are levels of faith. There is at least a faith that does not save (as indicated above) and a faith that does.

My next question is: what attributes must a saving faith possess?

This, again, is just for a definition of terms.

Hope the above makes sense!

I’m following you now. I agree with your first paragraph. Now, to answer your question.
My church teaches (and I obviously share this belief) that we need Faith of mind, heart and soul. Faith of mind is knowing that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord. Faith of heart is wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God while we are on this earth. Faith of the soul is knowing that we are doing God’s Will by reading His Word and never slacking in that study, and in turn, we receive the Holy Spirit to help guide us.
Does that help you understand where we are coming from?

 

[john_ennis]

Responding to the initial post:

And there are Traditions which they rightly believe. (Even if they don’t see them as Traditions.)
As Cardinal Newmann recognized as he became more and more compelled by the Church’s authority, Traditions like the belief that the Holy Spirit is actually a separate Divine Person, and that the OT command to celebrate the Sabbath should now be understood to mean Sunday, would never have been adopted from Scripture by itself.

These are Traditions which, now that they are believed, are said to have been obtained by Scripture alone, but that’s only a case of making the evidence fit one’s conclusion, rather than doing the converse.

Peace.
John

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m following you now. I agree with your first paragraph. Now, to answer your question.
My church teaches (and I obviously share this belief) that we need Faith of mind, heart and soul. Faith of mind is knowing that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord. Faith of heart is wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God while we are on this earth. Faith of the soul is knowing that we are doing God’s Will by reading His Word and never slacking in that study, and in turn, we receive the Holy Spirit to help guide us.
Does that help you understand where we are coming from?

I’m getting a much better idea, thank you. I agree, BTW, that faith is all this.

Now I noticed you said Jesus is Lord and that having faith includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.” So, since Jesus is Lord, I’m assuming that includes obedience to Him? And does “wanting to do” these things include works?

I guess what I’m asking is: When you define faith, do you mean it includes obedience, that is, works done for the honor and glory of God? Would you say it is, as Paul does, “faith working in love”?

BTW, I’m very much enjoying our discussion!