Protestant have their own traditions and doctrines

[Blue_Serenity]

I’m getting a much better idea, thank you. I agree, BTW, that faith is all this.

Now I noticed you said Jesus is Lord and that having faith includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.” So, since Jesus is Lord, I’m assuming that includes obedience to Him? And does “wanting to do” these things include works?

Doing all that we can for the honor and glory of God includes obedience, yes. It includes works but not for our personal gain. We have to be careful that we don’t assume our works will earn us Heaven. If we do works, it has to be for the honor and glory of God.
Kay Cee:

I guess what I’m asking is: When you define faith, do you mean it includes obedience, that is, works done for the honor and glory of God? Would you say it is, as Paul does, “faith working in love”?

BTW, I’m very much enjoying our discussion!

Obedience doesn’t tie in with works. They are separate things but they CAN work together in the overall big picture.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that works are fine but we don’t stress them because it’s so easy to assume that good works will merit you heaven, when, in fact, they are just something extra we should give to God to praise and honor Him.
Yes, I’m enjoying our discussion too. You’re so easy to talk to.

 

[JohnnyReb]

There are so many times Protestants condemning traditions, but they also have their own traditions and doctrines.

1. Alter Calls.
2. Music with guitars and rock and roll type music.
3. Rapture.
4. Once Saved Always Saved.
5. Professing “sinner’s prayer.”

There could be more, but Protestantism itself has develop overtime and came up which so many traditions, and dogmas all their own based solely on Sola Scriptura.

So what right do they have to condemned the “TRADITIONS” of the Catholic Church?

Yes we do…Sola Scriptura comes to mind. Every fellow Protestant that I haved asked has failed to provide an adequate scriptural proof for this doctrine. Of course they claim that it is a response to the Catholic claim of tradition and scripture, the pope and the magisterium etc…but you still have to prove yourself in making a response. It is not just the Catholics that have to prove tradition

 

[Kay_Cee]

Doing all that we can for the honor and glory of God includes obedience, yes. It includes works but not for our personal gain. We have to be careful that we don’t assume our works will earn us Heaven. If we do works, it has to be for the honor and glory of God.

This sounds identical to the Catholic position. What God gives us He gives as a reward, not as something earned.

Obedience doesn’t tie in with works. They are separate things but they CAN work together in the overall big picture.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that works are fine but we don’t stress them because it’s so easy to assume that good works will merit you heaven, when, in fact, they are just something extra we should give to God to praise and honor Him.

Okay. I would argue that the abuse of something doesn’t negate its proper use. That is, the fact that some may assume good works can earn salvation doesn’t negate that good works can be done for the glory of God. I’m not saying you’re doing that, I’m just pointing it out.

I’m wondering why you identified such good works (the ones done for God’s glory) as “just something extra.” You seemed to indicate above that they are a necessary part of a faith that saves. (Remember I asked you what attributes a saving faith has as opposed to a faith that doesn’t save, and you said it includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.”)

Hope I’m making sense here. I woke up very dizzy this morning. I just can’t seem to get over this flu, at least not completely!

Yes, I’m enjoying our discussion too. You’re so easy to talk to.

Thank you. So are you!

 

[JesusOnly]

There are so many times Protestants condemning traditions, but they also have their own traditions and doctrines.

1. Alter Calls.
2. Music with guitars and rock and roll type music.
3. Rapture.
4. Once Saved Always Saved.
5. Professing “sinner’s prayer.”

There could be more, but Protestantism itself has develop overtime and came up which so many traditions, and dogmas all their own based solely on Sola Scriptura.

So what right do they have to condemned the “TRADITIONS” of the Catholic Church?

Yes, we do have traditions. Please see 1 Thessalonians Chapters 4 and 5 for a listing of the traditions for the true church. Paul said to stand fast and hold the traditions we have been taught. That’s what we do.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, we do have traditions. Please see 1 Thessalonians Chapters 4 and 5 for a listing of the traditions for the true church. Paul said to stand fast and hold the traditions we have been taught. That’s what we do.

Catholics hold Tradition that Paul said to stand fast and what has been taught.

Though, there is no scriptural basis for alter calls, or the doctrine of OSAS, and the Rapture which started in the 1830s.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Okay. I would argue that the abuse of something doesn’t negate its proper use. That is, the fact that some may assume good works can earn salvation doesn’t negate that good works can be done for the glory of God. I’m not saying you’re doing that, I’m just pointing it out.

I understand what you’re getting at. That is toting the line between works done for God’s honor and glory and works done with our benefit in mind.
Kay Cee:

I’m wondering why you identified such good works (the ones done for God’s glory) as “just something extra.” You seemed to indicate above that they are a necessary part of a faith that saves. (Remember I asked you what attributes a saving faith has as opposed to a faith that doesn’t save, and you said it includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.”)

Because works aren’t necessary for salvation. They don’t earn you points in Heaven. They are encouraged, if done for the honor and glory of God and not our benefit.
Kay Cee:

Hope I’m making sense here. I woke up very dizzy this morning. I just can’t seem to get over this flu, at least not completely!

I hope you get to feeling better soon! Take lots of naps, when possible, and keep the water near by.

 

[Kay_Cee]

"Kay Cee:

I’m wondering why you identified such good works (the ones done for God’s glory) as “just something extra.” You seemed to indicate above that they are a necessary part of a faith that saves. (Remember I asked you what attributes a saving faith has as opposed to a faith that doesn’t save, and you said it includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.”)

Because works aren’t necessary for salvation. They don’t earn you points in Heaven. They are encouraged, if done for the honor and glory of God and not our benefit.

Okay, now I’m confused. When I asked you what attributes a saving faith had, you did say it includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.” I agree that works don’t earn anybody points in heaven. But you did indicate that works done for the honor and glory of God are part of a saving faith.

Are you saying if we refuse to do works for the honor and glory of God that we are still saved? If so, how does that not contradict your statement that such works are an attribute of a faith that saves as opposed to a faith the does not save?

I hope you get to feeling better soon! Take lots of naps, when possible, and keep the water near by.

Thank you! I’m feeling much better today, perhaps in part because the kids are back in school!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

**

Okay, now I’m confused. When I asked you what attributes a saving faith had, you did say it includes “wanting to do all that we can for the honor and glory of God.” I agree that works don’t earn anybody points in heaven. But you did indicate that works done for the honor and glory of God are part of a saving faith.

Are you saying if we refuse to do works for the honor and glory of God that we are still saved? If so, how does that not contradict your statement that such works are an attribute of a faith that saves as opposed to a faith the does not save?

We can’t refuse to use the talents that God gave us to use. But, if circumstances prevent us from doing works, we are not condemned for not being able to do works.
If God blesses me with the gift of treasure, I am to use my money to better serve God, like give to the poor or what else not. If God blesses me with the gift of time, I could use it to better serve my church and those who need my time to help them.
See what I’m getting at?
This isn’t required for salvation because sometimes circumstances beyond our control can happen and we can’t do works. Does that make sense? If not, I’ll try and explain better.
Kay Cee:

Thank you! I’m feeling much better today, perhaps in part because the kids are back in school!

Take advantage of the free time and relax!

 

[Kay_Cee]

We can’t refuse to use the talents that God gave us to use. But, if circumstances prevent us from doing works, we are not condemned for not being able to do works.
If God blesses me with the gift of treasure, I am to use my money to better serve God, like give to the poor or what else not. If God blesses me with the gift of time, I could use it to better serve my church and those who need my time to help them.
See what I’m getting at?
This isn’t required for salvation because sometimes circumstances beyond our control can happen and we can’t do works. Does that make sense? If not, I’ll try and explain better.

Okay, I think you’re saying good works are not required for those who are unable to perform them. I agree. God is always fair and reasonable. He doesn’t require the impossible, like works from someone in a coma.

But what about those who can perform good works? Are such good works (the ones done for the glory of God) part of a saving faith?

Take advantage of the free time and relax!

I’m trying to, but a lot of housework went undone while I was sick, so now I’m catching up. Today is going to be spent shopping for everything we ran out of, but at least I get to meet my husband for lunch. That’ll be fun.

BTW, thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I’m getting a much better idea where you’re coming from. As I suspected, our positions are not far apart, if they are apart at all.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Okay, I think you’re saying good works are not required for those who are unable to perform them. I agree. God is always fair and reasonable. He doesn’t require the impossible, like works from someone in a coma.

But what about those who can perform good works? Are such good works (the ones done for the glory of God) part of a saving faith?

I’m hesitant to answer this, simply because I fear wording this wrong.
I’ll give it a shot though.
Good works CAN be part of a saving faith, if done for the honor and glory of God, but aren’t necessary for salvation.
Does that make sense?
The reason I say they’re not necessary for salvation is because there are some that don’t have the opportunity to do them, like the scenario you mentioned.
Kay Cee:

I’m trying to, but a lot of housework went undone while I was sick, so now I’m catching up. Today is going to be spent shopping for everything we ran out of, but at least I get to meet my husband for lunch. That’ll be fun.

BTW, thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I’m getting a much better idea where you’re coming from. As I suspected, our positions are not far apart, if they are apart at all.

I was sick with the flu for a weekend and NONE of the laundry got done. I will say that my hubby did a good job of taking care of the boys and making dinner and cleaning the kitchen.
Men, you gotta love 'em!!!

You’re right, though. I think we believe the same things, just different understandings.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m hesitant to answer this, simply because I fear wording this wrong.
I’ll give it a shot though.

Fair enough. I’ll try to do the same. I agree that so often things can be taken in an unintended way, especially over the internet when you can’t hear tone of voice or observe body language.

Good works CAN be part of a saving faith, if done for the honor and glory of God, but aren’t necessary for salvation.
Does that make sense?
The reason I say they’re not necessary for salvation is because there are some that don’t have the opportunity to do them, like the scenario you mentioned.

Okay, let’s, for the sake of argument, set aside the scenario I outlined. It really is the exception; most of us don’t find ourselves in that kind of situation. Let me ask it this way: For those who can perform works (again, defined as those done for the glory of God) are such works necessary for their salvation?

Or, to put it another way, consider this: Loving God is an action. An action is doing something, therefore it is a work. Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved, or is it okay to have faith in Him as our Savior yet remain indifferent and not love Him? Does a saving faith at least incorporate the work of loving God?

I was sick with the flu for a weekend and NONE of the laundry got done. I will say that my hubby did a good job of taking care of the boys and making dinner and cleaning the kitchen.
Men, you gotta love 'em!!!

Yes, I’m also fortunate to have a husband who will step in when necessary. I was essentially bedridden the last month of my second pregnancy, and he did all the housework. What a blessing it is to have a Christian marriage!

You’re right, though. I think we believe the same things, just different understandings.

I’m sensing more and more that that’s the case!

 

[HailMary]

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Okay, let’s, for the sake of argument, set aside the scenario I outlined. It really is the exception; most of us don’t find ourselves in that kind of situation. Let me ask it this way: For those who can perform works (again, defined as those done for the glory of God) are such works necessary for their salvation?

Or, to put it another way, consider this: Loving God is an action. An action is doing something, therefore it is a work. Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved, or is it okay to have faith in Him as our Savior yet remain indifferent and not love Him? Does a saving faith at least incorporate the work of loving God?

Works are a part of faith. Yes, you’re right, it takes work to love God sometimes, especially if alot of things go wrong in our lives and we tend to blame God.
If one has a true faith in God, the works will flow naturally, as we will want to do everything we can to show him honor and glory.
So yes and no, to answer your question.
Did I just confuse you some more?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Works are a part of faith. Yes, you’re right, it takes work to love God sometimes, especially if alot of things go wrong in our lives and we tend to blame God.
If one has a true faith in God, the works will flow naturally, as we will want to do everything we can to show him honor and glory.
So yes and no, to answer your question.
Did I just confuse you some more?

I’m afraid you did.

Maybe the distinction you’re trying to point out is such a fine line I just can’t see it.

But one thing you said struck me: “the works will flow naturally.” By this do you mean we automatically do works once we have faith? Do you mean we then do not have a choice *not *to do good works? And, if that’s the case, how would we still have free will?

I’m really trying to understand where the line is drawn. You seem to be saying works are an integral part of faith but at the same time are unnecessary (please correct me if I’m wrong). I’m having a hard time seeing that as not a contradiction.

BTW, as much as I’m enjoying our discussion, I may not show up on Friday. My younger daughter is having oral surgery–four teeth being removed for orthodontic reasons, four impacted wisdom teeth being removed, and an eye tooth stuck almost sideways in the roof of her mouth getting an attachment to (we hope!) bring it down into the proper position. She’s more than a bit nervous about the whole thing, as am I. Prayer is appreciated.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I’m afraid you did.

Maybe the distinction you’re trying to point out is such a fine line I just can’t see it.

But one thing you said struck me: “the works will flow naturally.” By this do you mean we automatically do works once we have faith? Do you mean we then do not have a choice *not *to do good works? And, if that’s the case, how would we still have free will?

You’re wanting me to say “yes, faith and works will earn you salvation”. Am I right?
If we have a true faith, we will WANT to do works for the honor and glory of God. We will want to be as close as we can to him. Don’t you strive to do everything you can for God’s honor and glory?
Of course we have free will. We can choose whether to listen to God or ignore him.
Kay Cee:

I’m really trying to understand where the line is drawn. You seem to be saying works are an integral part of faith but at the same time are unnecessary (please correct me if I’m wrong). I’m having a hard time seeing that as not a contradiction.

Let’s say someone finally develops faith in God from living a life of selfishness. They may not yet know how to do works for the honor and glory of God or what it all entails. If they would die before realizing that, their faith would save them. Does that make better sense or confuse you even more?
Kay Cee:

BTW, as much as I’m enjoying our discussion, I may not show up on Friday. My younger daughter is having oral surgery–four teeth being removed for orthodontic reasons, four impacted wisdom teeth being removed, and an eye tooth stuck almost sideways in the roof of her mouth getting an attachment to (we hope!) bring it down into the proper position. She’s more than a bit nervous about the whole thing, as am I. Prayer is appreciated.

I will definitely pray for your daughter’s surgery. I hope she mends fast!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

BTW, as much as I’m enjoying our discussion, I may not show up on Friday. My younger daughter is having oral surgery–four teeth being removed for orthodontic reasons, four impacted wisdom teeth being removed, and an eye tooth stuck almost sideways in the roof of her mouth getting an attachment to (we hope!) bring it down into the proper position. She’s more than a bit nervous about the whole thing, as am I. Prayer is appreciated.

Hi,

I had the same exact surgery when I was 17. Just a bit of advice from experience, dont let her swallow any blood Make sure if she is bleeding that you make her spit it out! I didnt know and my dad didnt check on me. I was bleeding alot and kept swallowing it and I threw up alot. I then learned not to ever swallow blood it upsets the stomach.

I will pray for her.

 

[HailMary]

I had it too and recovered in 3 days.

 

[HailMary]

My cousin, who is a protestant, is not baptising his new niece the way it is traditionally done with water and the Holy Spirit while saying, (anyone) “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Instead, they are having this “dedication” ceremony (like in Samuel) because, quote, “we protestants don’t want to feel left out”. I find it sad that they are doing something that was never done before for Christians just because they don’t want to use a “catholic” term like “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.

I really hope this baby is covered under Baptism by derise.

I send him this email and he still sounds stubborn:

Will,

Here are some of the instances of Christian Baptismal Regeneration ( ie: when we (Catholics) use the term “born-agan”, “born-anew”, “born from above” we mean Holy Baptism)

I understand that you may use the phrase “born again” to mean something than actual Baptism as the Church, the Bible, and Tradition uses it, but that is besides the point right now. ( the Baptism I am referring too is when someone says, “I Baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” with water being applied someone to their bodies - usually the head but in early christian times it was actually whole bodies, even for adults)

here are the references I promised:

Romans 6:3:
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Acts 16:15:
After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us.
note: “and her household” would imply that even children were included

Acts 16:33
He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once.
note: “all his family” would imply that even children were included

1 Cor 1:16:
I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.
note: “the household” would imply that even children were included

Furthermore, St. Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ” and “the circumcision made without hands.” Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

And lastly, the reason the rite of Baptism has been carried for the past two centuries it because Christians are keeping the commands of St. Paul as he said:

2 Thess: 2:14-15:
To this end he has also called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours

And Holy Baptism is one of these Traditions.
Will, I’m not here to argue or debate; just trying to point out that it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (the Early Church Fathers talk about this extensively).

God Bless,

any thoughts on how to convince him that Baptism by water and Spirit is required?

I always think of when Christ said, while He ascended into heave, "Baptize all nations…

 

[Kay_Cee]

You’re wanting me to say “yes, faith and works will earn you salvation”. Am I right?

Actually, no! I wouldn’t say that either. Salvation cannot be earned. God is our Father, not our employer.

If we have a true faith, we will WANT to do works for the honor and glory of God. We will want to be as close as we can to him. Don’t you strive to do everything you can for God’s honor and glory?

Yes, but I also bump up against wanting to do things just for myself. I’m still tempted to sin. I’m still capable of sin. I still sin.

Of course we have free will. We can choose whether to listen to God or ignore him.

Would you also agree it goes beyond listening? Would you agree we can choose to obey God or not obey Him?

Let’s say someone finally develops faith in God from living a life of selfishness. They may not yet know how to do works for the honor and glory of God or what it all entails. If they would die before realizing that, their faith would save them. Does that make better sense or confuse you even more?

I agree that God does not demand the impossible from us. Certainly the moment we receive faith we haven’t had time to do good works. If one were to die at that moment, the moment of initial justification, yes, he would be saved. I’m more concerned, however, with what happens after that.

Perhaps it would help if at this point we define “works.” I think we both agree that only works done for the glory of God have any merit, and that even so, these works cannot earn salvation. (Then again, neither can faith earn salvation, since salvation cannot be earned. We cannot obligate God.)

I would define good works as any action done for the glory of God. This includes loving Him and loving our neighbor.

We agreed earlier there is a faith that does not save and a faith that does save. Therefore it follows that a faith that does save is different from a faith that does not save. A faith that does save has something more to it than a faith that does not. Exactly what is this something? (Please note–I’m talking about the faith of those who are capable of doing good works, not those in a state wherein they are incapable.)

I will definitely pray for your daughter’s surgery. I hope she mends fast!

Thank you! I hope so too. I probably get far too nervous and worry too much about such things.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Hi,

I had the same exact surgery when I was 17. Just a bit of advice from experience, dont let her swallow any blood Make sure if she is bleeding that you make her spit it out! I didnt know and my dad didnt check on me. I was bleeding alot and kept swallowing it and I threw up alot. I then learned not to ever swallow blood it upsets the stomach.

I will pray for her.

Thanks! I will tell her that. I hadn’t even thought of putting a container in her room, but I will now.