Protestant here with Some Words

[Orionthehunter]

jpete79:

I want to ask you if you believe that both the Catechism and the Bible are infallible?

It is my understanding that the Catechism is not infallible but is:

"a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.

Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes."

Internet site: usccb.org/catechism/text/fideidepositum.htm

And then from the conclusion of the Prologue:

"23 The Catechism emphasizes the exposition of doctrine. It seeks to help deepen understanding of faith. In this way it is oriented toward the maturing of that faith, its putting down roots in personal life and its shining forth in personal conduct.

24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:

Whoever teaches must become “all things to all men” (1 Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers. . . .Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.

Above All—Charity

25 To conclude this Prologue, it is fitting to recall this pastoral principle stated by the Roman Catechism:

The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love."

In short, as it is written today in today’s language, it helps one apply the Universal Truth specifically to today’s issues and one can reasonably rely upon its conformance to the Church’s all-encompassing Deposit of Faith entrusted to Her by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Orionthehunter]

hurst:

And what is to be done with all the people who have put their faith in Him? That is what the Church is for, so we can live as a community in charity with one another and be a witness to the world. They will know we are Christians by our love. Yet, this body of Christians has to be governed, fed, and instructed. Just as the Israelites had a special tribe (Levites) for handling the work of God, so Christ’s Church has the hierarchy of men consecrated to the task of doing God’s work.

You stand out preaching faith in Christ. Ok…

But now what if you die? Who takes over? You may say God handles it. Ok…

**Now what is wrong with believing that God has handled it in the form of the 2000 year-old Catholic Church? You say there are examples of evil leaders. Ok…

But the Israelites had the same, so it should be no surprise. Even you, being the standard bearer of your own doctrine, cannot claim to be sinless. Why should anyone believe you? Don’t believe you, but the believe the Bible you give them? Ok…**

Which version? Why not believe a mormon standard-bearer and his bible? Or yet a muslim and his koran, as others have pointed out? The one that has been around the longest? Ok…

But that would be the one maintained by the Catholic Church. Don’t rely on them because they might mislead you? But now we are back to the error of Core against Moses, who objected to having to follow him (Numbers 16). God provides for His people on earth to be a witness to the world. This is not about personal salvation as much as it is about obeying God and giving Him glory.

Do you see that you are asserting something on your own strength? You cut loose from the CC ship in a little dingy, and are trying to rescue people in the water, but you have limited yourself, and you direct others to avoid the ship that is able to hold them all, because you don’t like some people on board, or some of their policies… You deny that God would possibly allow His ship to full of hypocrites, wicked men, and apathetic people. But consider the parable that concludes thus:

Matthew 13:30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

Although God allows it for a time, it will be taken care of in the end. We must believe God allows us to endure the evils of our neighbor that we may both do penance for our own and also show forth virtue in the face of vice. For we must not hide our light under a bushel basket, but let it shine unto the glory of Our Father in heaven.

hurst

Good point. If God can use David who went so far as to have his General killed so he could continue to sleep with the General’s wife, I think working with the less-than-Holy Popes, Bishops, Priests and even laity is certainly plausible. You believe He is working thru you and me don’t you despite our sinfulness.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

jpete79:

Is Purgatory in the Gospel that was preached by Paul or was taught by Christ himself?

If so let me see Scriptural references…

II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Also go there to see that the Early Church Fathers agree.

 

[hurst]

jpete79:

Christ wanted us to be free…I want to ask are you all free?

Free from sin implies being bound to obedience. I am free in that I don’t have to hold up my own beliefs, because the Church hierarchy does that for me. In exchange I have to endure their sins, but I can be sanctified thereby. It is better than enduring my own sins and errors in holding up myself.

The real question is, are you free? Free from pride and disobedience? What visible person on earth do you submit yourself to in obedience?

jpete79:

I have heard the same answers from various people on different topics but I have read them as versed and structured from the Catechism. Why not speak from your own hearts?

I do, but since we are under obedience, we try to be careful to act within the Church teachings. Surely you try to do the same with your own interpretations of scripture…

jpete79:

What I see is sad because my argument stands on the ground of Jesus Christ. The Holy Son of God. Many things I have heard and seen has you putting more emphasis on Peter and the Pope than Christ alone.

But obeying the Pope is obeying Christ.

Are you saying it is sad to see us practice humility and obedience? We are children of the Church; is it sad that children put emphasis on obeying their parents rather than on “Christ alone”? If you were a parent and a child refused to obey you by saying he would only obey “Christ alone”, then what would you do?

So your argument of “Christ alone” can only make sense by adjusting it to be “Christ and those belonging to Him”. For we are His Body.

Are you unwilling to humble yourself under obedience? That is not praiseworthy. The opposite is praiseworthy, even as Christ praise the Centurion:

Luke 7:6 … Lord, trouble not thyself; for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof. 7 For which cause neither did I think myself worthy to come to thee; but say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 8 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers: and I say to one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doth it. 9 Which Jesus hearing, marvelled: and turning about to the multitude that followed him, he said: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith, not even in Israel.

Your belief that obeying the Pope is an offense against Christ is not even scriptural.

Your refusal to accept suffering by refusing to endure obeying men who are not impeccable is not Christian, for Jesus called us to take up our cross and deny ourselves. He also told us to trust in God, to obey God’s law while not following the bad example of men who teach it.

jpete79:

I just want people to realize that we have a perfect mediator in Jesus Christ and don’t need other mediators to get to Him.

Then why are you bothering to tell us? Why don’t you consider yourself as being in His way, blocking our view of Him?

Don’t you see that you contradict yourself here?

hurst

 

[cazayoux]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

As a history major, I can tell you truthfully that your accusations against the popes are not true. I’m not going to tell you that the Church had nothing to do with the crusades–the Church had *everything *to do with the crusades. *What *the Church did, however, is another question. I just finished taking a class this term entitled “Holy War in the Middle Ages: Christian and Islamic Perspectives” and it was one of the best classes I’ve taken. For my final paper, I just turned in a critical book review of The Invention of the Crusades by Christopher Tyermann (a review, not a book report on its contents). There’s one historian that I can tell you is mistaken. Believe me, I know this subject quite well. If it wasn’t for the Church calling for crusade, Europe may very well have fallen to the Muslims. Were autrocities committed? Yes, certainly; it was war, after all. But was the Church behind them? No.

As for the Inquisition, it was the secular courts that burned people at the stake, not religious ones.

And any Jew that criticizes the Church about the Holocaust had better read the autobiography of Rabbi Zolli, who was their head Rabbi of Rome during that time. After the war, he converted to Catholicism and took Eugenio as his baptismal name in honor of Pope Pius XII. So don’t give me that stuff about the Church not helping the Jews. It is estimated that the Church saved the lives of anywhere between 750,000-800,000 Jews during WWII. Albert Einstein himself said that no one did more to help the Jews than the Catholic Church. You need to get your facts straight before you start making these accusations.

In Christ,
Rand

I usually abbreviate the previous poster’s quite … but I like this one TOO much to do that.

Rand Al’Thor hit the nail on the head.

I JUST finished reading “Pope Fiction” by Patrick Madrid which covers exactly this material. I invite anyone with “Pope Questions” to use this text to find out if it is in fact a “Pope Fiction”.

Cheers!

michel

 

[hurst]

jpete79:

I want to ask you if you believe that both the Catechism and the Bible are infallible?

You mean inerrant? The Bible is definitely inerrant, and the Church teaches this, and has taught this centuries before the Protestants split from the Church.

The Catechism does not enjoy the same level of respect.

The Catholic Church reveres the Word of God, as it reveres the Body of Christ. For example, one mark of veneration is that the Gospel is kissed before reading it at Mass. More can be said, but suffice it to say that no one treats the catechism with the same reverence, though it is certainly important.

hurst

 

[Sherlock]

Jpete,

I’m still waiting for a response to the comments you received regarding your questionable historical knowledge of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the alleged silence of the pope during the Holocaust. How can we take you seriously if you throw out ill-founded allegations, and don’t respond to corrections?

 

[javelin]

hurst:

jpete79:

I want to ask you if you believe that both the Catechism and the Bible are infallible?

You mean inerrant? The Bible is definitely inerrant, and the Church teaches this, and has taught this centuries before the Protestants split from the Church.

The Catechism does not enjoy the same level of respect.

The Catholic Church reveres the Word of God, as it reveres the Body of Christ. For example, one mark of veneration is that the Gospel is kissed before reading it at Mass. More can be said, but suffice it to say that no one treats the catechism with the same reverence, though it is certainly important.

hurst

I think it is imporant to note that even though the Catechism as a complete document is not infallible, the moral and doctrinal teaching it contains is derived from infallible sources, such as the Bible and Ecumenical Council documents. Thus, though the wording and such of the Catechism is not infallible, the doctrinal teaching is (due to its derivation from infallible sources, not merely because it is included in the Catechism).

Hope that clarifies.

Peace,
javelin

 

[jim1130]

jpete79:

I cannot acknowledge that a person with a title or position gets authority to be 100% accurate in morals and faith. Especially when you look at people that have held this position. The Popes who stood at the forefront of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The Popes who stood by while the Holocaust went on and the Popes who cover-up sexual abuse scandals.

Again, I don’t say that people can’t be Catholic and Christian but to have people that have stood by while millions were killed in different periods of time and say they are infallible in matters of morals and faith I just can’t understand.

You asked for some legitimate dialogue then took some potshots at the Catholic Church. Okay, here is an interesting book in defense of Pope Pius XII, written by Rabbi David G. Dalin, defending Pope Pius XII and acknowledging the hundreds of thousands of Jews he helped save during WW II: “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis.” Also, here is something from Albert Einstein from Time magazine, December 23, 1940, regarding the Catholic Church’s defense of the Jews: “Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the case of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom. But they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.” Please give the anti-Catholic rhetoric a rest.

 

[jpete79]

To All:

I originally came here in search of answers; I had originally a few questions to which were answered and to which created more questions which in turn ended up in heated debates and arguments.

I admit to being thickheaded; especially in matters of faith. I wish I could have read every post and every comment and every link. I admit I could not. I have saved certain links to Favorites so that I can read up in the future (such as links to The Catechism). I also pray that God will use the Spirit to guide me into a better understanding of what you believe (such as Oral Tradition); not necessarily for a sake of searching for something to follow but for a sake of better understanding.

If I criticized any of you or hurt spirits and feelings that was not my intention. It seems everyone I talked to is sincere about their relationship with Jesus Christ and that everyone here also takes that relationship seriously.

In the 1500’s things started changing. Protestants started walking away from the Church (though others walked away as early as the 1000’s from what I’ve read). I’ve been asked why are there so many denominations? Well, there was a split in the reformation and there are two sides to every split. It’s true the Protestants walked away but the Catholic Church could have done more to keep them there as well.

Catholics and Protestants have indeed separated further apart than I imagined. At the heart of the split is one thing. God. Protestants split so that they can grow in a relationship with Christ. So that no man could come between them and Jesus (at least thats why many people I know have become Protestant). On the other side, Catholics deem that as long as they follow Christ’s institution, they follow Christ himself. No matter the person at the Holy See, they follow diligently because Christ commanded it.

We have a lot we can learn from each other in years to come. I think your submission is admirable but I cannot put that submission between myself and God as I submit to Him.

The split that is between us, the rift that is there doesn’t look like it will be 100% fixed. In Christ anything is possible though. Also, the split will indeed bring about something good in the end as well. Paul writes in Romans that all things happen for the good of God. For some reason to better God this whole thing happened.

I will be heading off for awhile as I will not be able to post tomorrow and the weekend I will be busy, after that I will decide if I want to return.

Everyone, God Bless and let the Lord of lords continue to work in you so that you may walk a life worthy of Him, so that you may live according to his commands while heeding his warnings. Love the Lord, fear the Lord and live for the Lord bringing His truth wherever you go.

In His Hands,
Jim

 

[jim1130]

Orionthehunter:

Jpete, you didn’t answer the question “How do you know that the Bible is perfect?”

You answered it by saying the the Bible says so. Let me give you an analogy. If I said I was God and perfect, would that make me God and perfect? Of course not.

So, I’ll ask the question again. Either answer the original question or answer this question.

How do you know that the Bible wasn’t written by some really smart people who were also deluded to think that their wisdom was from a Supreme Being?

Would that be the Qu’ran & Islam?

 

[jpete79]

Sherlock:

Jpete,

I’m still waiting for a response to the comments you received regarding your questionable historical knowledge of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the alleged silence of the pope during the Holocaust. How can we take you seriously if you throw out ill-founded allegations, and don’t respond to corrections?

I have studied both the Crusades and the Inquisition. I admit that my knowledge of the Holocaust and the Church is limited at best. Since I am at work, I cannot look to my sources for exact citations either.

The problem I am having (and that most are having with me) is there is not a lot of unbiased sources. If you read a Christian book about any of these things its either from the Protestant point of view or the Catholic point of view and each would be written for that point of propaganda. The same happens when people would link me to articles that Catholics would write. In the same way I would supply articles that Protestants would write.

The remarks in regard to the Holocaust were made after reading an article about how people took John-Paul II’s apology about the actions of the Catholic Church in the past. Many Rabbi’s and Jews did not believe it to be an authentic apology and they continually talked about how they felt the Church had more power to wield in that time than it actually did.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

jpete79:

I have studied both the Crusades and the Inquisition. I admit that my knowledge of the Holocaust and the Church is limited at best. Since I am at work, I cannot look to my sources for exact citations either.

The problem I am having (and that most are having with me) is there is not a lot of unbiased sources. If you read a Christian book about any of these things its either from the Protestant point of view or the Catholic point of view and each would be written for that point of propaganda. The same happens when people would link me to articles that Catholics would write. In the same way I would supply articles that Protestants would write.

The remarks in regard to the Holocaust were made after reading an article about how people took John-Paul II’s apology about the actions of the Catholic Church in the past. Many Rabbi’s and Jews did not believe it to be an authentic apology and they continually talked about how they felt the Church had more power to wield in that time than it actually did.

ohh yes. the 109 acre country taking on the great war machine that took down most of europe and kicked the rest (U.K. and Russia). Am I the only one who think that the Pope with the swiss guard did a lot for such a rinckydink small country. What you want. Its not like they could go and get physical with the Germans. I mean the Russians couldn’t do that and they have more to work with than most of europe. I am impressed the pope that he did anything at all. Hitler could have had them all killed before breakfast.

 

[mattrue]

JPETET WROTE:On the other side, Catholics deem that as long as they follow Christ’s institution, they follow Christ himself. No matter the person at the Holy See, they follow diligently because Christ commanded it.

thank you for such a nice response. i wish you could have read everything we have wrote because it was for you. i think its good to talk about this stuff. and i do mean talk and not get hot or angry headed and that i think we have accopmlished that. as far as your response above, i’d like to think that i have a relationship with Christ himself, i mean i pray to Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. Its the church that teaches us, thats what the church is there for. I cant just go and make up whatever i want i must go to the Church for clarification. Vatican II and the Catechism i believe were written by the Holy Spirit and i believe that all the popes were appointed by God as Peter was. so yes the first church founded by peter and Mary (God bless her, its her day!) we follow because there we find the truth, not truth of our own, but the truth of the Living God, Jesus Christ. In Christ, Matt

 

[Orionthehunter]

jpete79:

I have studied both the Crusades and the Inquisition. I admit that my knowledge of the Holocaust and the Church is limited at best. Since I am at work, I cannot look to my sources for exact citations either.

The problem I am having (and that most are having with me) is there is not a lot of unbiased sources. If you read a Christian book about any of these things its either from the Protestant point of view or the Catholic point of view and each would be written for that point of propaganda. The same happens when people would link me to articles that Catholics would write. In the same way I would supply articles that Protestants would write.

The remarks in regard to the Holocaust were made after reading an article about how people took John-Paul II’s apology about the actions of the Catholic Church in the past. Many Rabbi’s and Jews did not believe it to be an authentic apology and they continually talked about how they felt the Church had more power to wield in that time than it actually did.

It is so easy to look back and say the Church should have done more. And maybe they should have. But at the same time, you have to remember that after the Jews, the Nazi’s excecuted Catholics. The Pope I’m sure always measured how the Church opposed Hitler without resulting in wholesale retaliation against Catholics. I don’t think “God’s will” would have been served if making a point resulted in 10 million Catholics being killed in addition to the 6 million Jews.

Additionally, the Vatican was just a few miles from the home of Hitler’s ally-Mussulini. One must have been sensitive to the “big picture” consideration taht the Church as a body of Faith, Believers, and an institution was entrusted to the Holy Father by Christ. To have willy-nilly done/said things that would have resulted in the destruction of the Vatican City would have been an afront to his Stewardship obligations.

Finally, one must keep in mind the Catholic perspective of martyrdom (dying because of your Faith in God). Despite the human tragedy of the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansing done in Kosovo, the massacre of the people in the World Trade Towers, and the Shiites being killed by the Sunni’s in Iraq, the Church teaches and believes that these person’s executed by reason of their faith will recieve additional merciful consideration by God. This is directly converse to the “consideration” that will be given to the executioners.

 

[jim1130]

Definitive manuscripts rely on additional sources to substantiate claims. “The Guns of August” by Barbara W. Tuchman may be the authoritative book on the origins of World War I (which I mention today in honor of Veteran’s Day and the anniversary of the Armistice that ended World War I), but that is because the author relied on sources, including eye witness accounts (oral traditions?), to document the events. Such corroboration brings both interpretive validity and authenticity to the document. We Catholics rely on writings of early Church fathers and followers of Christ to enlighten, enhance, clarify, and assist in the interpretation of the Bible. This supporting evidence enhances the Bible because its compilation was not a systematic construction devised in the beginning by the Apostles for use by future generations. If so, Christ would have said “Write this down and let us organize it by chapters for easy reference in our table of contents and index.” To take the Bible as it is bound without knowledge of the Bible’s origin and context is not embracing faith, but selective and subjective understanding.

Peter’s authority, and subsequent Apostolic sucession, can be traced in Matthew 16 along with Isaiah 22 (passing of keys and authority).

We then turn to the Early Church Fathers for validation.

Apostolic succession was described by Irenaeus: “Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

Also, there is Cyprian: “And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided.” Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

Also, there is Jerome: "…I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375).

“For the good of unity Blessed Peter deserved to be preferred before the rest, and alone received the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, that he might communicate them to the rest.” Optatus of Mileve, The Schism of Donatists, 7:3 (c.A.D. 367).

 

[LSK]

There are secular sources of history you could take the time to look into that would point you in the direction of people that could testify to the work done by the Catholic Church to save Jews and Italian partisans during WWII.

It would mean actually doing research.

My family was murdered by the Nazis during WWII…they were partisans. The women of my family were saved because of the bravery of a priest supported by the Pope who got hundreds of Jews and others over the mountains into Switzerland during the War.

My families name is Bernini. There is a monument built to them in Northern Italy.

Look it up.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Additionally, keep in mind that both at the time of his life and death as well as now, as many or more Jews have come to defense of the Church and Pope Pius regarding this issue. Keep in mind how the media seems to attack the Church unmercifully on everything before you give everything you read credence.

 

[jim1130]

Orionthehunter:

Additionally, keep in mind that both at the time of his life and death as well as now, as many or more Jews have come to defense of the Church and Pope Pius regarding this issue. Keep in mind how the media seems to attack the Church unmercifully on everything before you give everything you read credence.

It is also good to remember that, automatically, anything Catholic is bad from the Protestant perspective (Catholics embrace Protestants as Christians, but the embrace is not reciprocated) and that this country was founded on anti-Catholic sentiment. Even during colonial times, Catholic schools were prohibited. Throw in the Know-Nothing Party that fanned the flames of anti-Catholic rhetoric and feelings and you get a sense of the hostility exhibited toward Catholics. Anti-Catholic sentiment waning? I think not. Why the issue of a possible 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court.

 

[jim1130]

LSK:

There are secular sources of history you could take the time to look into that would point you in the direction of people that could testify to the work done by the Catholic Church to save Jews and Italian partisans during WWII.

It would mean actually doing research.

My family was murdered by the Nazis during WWII…they were partisans. The women of my family were saved because of the bravery of a priest supported by the Pope who got hundreds of Jews and others over the mountains into Switzerland during the War.

My families name is Bernini. There is a monument built to them in Northern Italy.

Look it up.

Schindler saved 1,500 and he gets a book and a movie deal. Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church help save hundreds of thousands and all people want to do is talk about two bogus writing, Rolf Hochhuth’s 1963 play The Deputy, and John Cornwell’s book, Hitler’s Pope.