Protestant husband insists on getting a vasectomy against my wishes- can I get a legal separation?

[Cricket2]

As another poster suggested you need to see your Priest.

He can tell you more about your ability to continue marital relations with your husband in light of his choice. You have 5 children and you need to remember that divorce is a very hard thing on children. Please seek out professional assistance with this.

 

[Country_Gal]

Sounds like the marriage is in trouble. No one here knows either of you. Are you wanting faithful Catholics to all come to your side and tell you to get rid of the bum?

I suspect the situation, like all marriages, is full of personal history, words said, events that went wrong. The only good way for you to sort through this, and maybe save this marriage, is to get into couples counseling.

I can understand his desire to avoid more children. I advise you not to withhold the marital bed, that’s a sure way to drive him into the arms of another woman, destroy your marriage, and deeply hurt your children.

 

[steph410]

I can understand his desire to avoid more children. I advise you not to withhold the marital bed, that’s a sure way to drive him into the arms of another woman, destroy your marriage, and deeply hurt your children.

now this is some golden advice. are you being serious? now you are saying it would be MY fault if he had an affair due to this? priceless! So you don’t think he would be to blame being driven into the arms of another woman, even after he refused to care for my feelings on the matter of getting a vasectomy and rebelliously went and did it anyway? Even if I were an atheist, it would be wrong of him to go through with something like this when I, as his wife, have the desire to at least be open to a future child or children. This is a permanent procedure that affects both of us monumentally as a married couple.

 

[steph410]

and I just love those of you who are trolling through the internet researching all my posts. how creepy! You have zero idea of what has happened in between any of my posts (which were quite few), so this is verging on nonsense.

 

[steph410]

Oh, and I almost forgot- some of you want to know the ages of my children now? oh and would you like their names too? how about my address? seriously none of that is any of your business. If you are truly Catholic and hold to true Catholic teaching I am interested in your thoughts, sorry but if you are not- you are not who I am addressing. thanks

 

[underacloud]

My husband is scheduled to get a vasectomy against my wishes as a Catholic. We have talked about it extensively and he does not care about my feelings in the matter. Because of this, I honestly feel that if he goes through with this, I will not be able to be a normal wife to him. I will not be able to have sex with him as I will see it as him using my body for pleasure alone. And especially since he will have done this completely against my wishes eventhough I may want another child in the future someday, I don’t know how I can love him really (just being honest sorry). Does anyone know if a Catholic can get a legal separation, rather than an official divorce? We have 5 children. thanks

There are a number of issues I see here:

a) As others have addressed, as a non-Catholic his sexual ethics will be different than ours. I think you are judging him very harshly on this. Leave the judging up to God.

b) You say you don’t know how you can love him. But love is a choice. Recall your marriage vows - depending on the version used, they would be something like this: “I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.” This may be a bad time, but not something that revokes your obligations towards him. Pray for the grace to remain true to your vows.

c) You have five children. Why would you want to break up a family over an issue so many other couples deal with without it destroying their marriages?

d) You have used NFP during your marriage, but don’t understand how you can be intimate while he is trying to avoid pregnancy. This is a contradiction.

e) There are no doubt other issues here that we don’t know of. Counselling is surely in need. I hope you can both approach it openly and lovingly, and that your marriage may prosper.

 

[Country_Gal]

and I just love those of you who are trolling through the internet researching all my posts. how creepy! You have zero idea of what has happened in between any of my posts (which were quite few), so this is verging on nonsense.

That’s right. We don’t know enough about you to help. That’s why you should seek face to face help.

Incidentally, when you post things here, there is a feature where people can search your past posts. If you don’t want that to happen, probably it’s best not to post.

 

[steph410]

T

d) You have used NFP during your marriage, but don’t understand how you can be intimate while he is trying to avoid pregnancy. This is a contradiction.

with NFP, there is still the possibility of children, you are still giving yourself wholeheartedly and in reality to your spouse. With a willful sterilization that is done for no medical reason it is not only a serious sin, but there is no longer a full giving of self to your marriage partner.

 

[thewanderer]

and I just love those of you who are trolling through the internet researching all my posts. how creepy! You have zero idea of what has happened in between any of my posts (which were quite few), so this is verging on nonsense.

I’m sorry that you think of this as trolling, we really don’t know very much about the situation, so we went back to look at your previous posts here on CAF to see if it can help give more context to the situation at hand. With just the information you provided in this thread it seems ridiculous for you to be even considering separation, but from looking back at previous posts from earlier this year it became clear that this action is more like the straw that broke the camel’s back to you. The fact is that your husband getting sterilized against your wishes, in and of itself, is nowhere near serious enough a reason to break up with him, and rock your children’s world. Because of that you received many harsh answers, in looking at your previous posts people can see that this is not the whole story and use that information to try and give more appropriate advice. Honestly, I think you and your husband need to get into counselling because it sounds as though you have various issues that you need to sort out if you are going to have any chance of saving your marriage. Especially given that we have such limited information about the situation I’m really not sure what other advise we can give.

 

[thewanderer]

with NFP, there is still the possibility of children, you are still giving yourself wholeheartedly and in reality to your spouse. With a willful sterilization that is done for no medical reason it is not only a serious sin,** but there is no longer a full giving of self to your marriage partner**.

Maybe we can start here. Why do you think the bolded is true? In my study of Church teaching on these matters I have seen absolutely nothing that would substantiate such a claim. We are clearly on different pages regarding the seriousness (not that his action isn’t serious) of the effects of your husbands actions on your marriage and it will probably help to try and see where the other person is coming from, so it might help to try and understand why you think his sterilization will somehow taint your marriage bed such that there is a lack of complete self-gift involved.

 

[underacloud]

with NFP, there is still the possibility of children, you are still giving yourself wholeheartedly and in reality to your spouse. With a willful sterilization that is done for no medical reason it is not only a serious sin, but there is no longer a full giving of self to your marriage partner.

Depending on how one approaches NFP, it is disingenuous to say that there is still the possibility of children at certain times. You’re trying to avoid children, and trying to get something else from sex. That’s the point, that sex between married couples still holds real value when procreation is excluded. It is the manner in which it is excluded (contraception vs preiodic abstinence) that matters in Catholic sexual ethics.

NFP techniques are constantly fine-tuned so that the possibilities of pregnancy are minimised. At certain times in the cycle, they are effectively 0% (eg post ovulation phase). The chance of someone who has had a vasectomy impregnating his wife will be greater than the chance a woman will get pregnant in the post-ovulation phase (assuming ovulation correctly identified).

I’m not sure if you have any protestant friends you could discuss this with, but it may help you to get another perspective. They simply don’t understand things the Catholic way.

As a father of four myself, I can understand that your husband may not want any more children. It is hard work at times and stressful. Responsible parenting may be, in his view, to stop there. Catholic ethics would not prohibit that. It is merely the manner in which he wishes to do it. Catholic ethics do prohibit a vasectomy, but his own ethics do not. So I think it would help to try to understand his viewpoint better.

 

[horselvr]

By being his wife—you are required to sign for the vasectomy–at least in some states.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Depending on how one approaches NFP, it is disingenuous to say that there is still the possibility of children at certain times. You’re trying to avoid children, and trying to get something else from sex. That’s the point, that sex between married couples still holds real value when procreation is excluded. It is the manner in which it is excluded (contraception vs preiodic abstinence) that matters in Catholic sexual ethics.

NFP techniques are constantly fine-tuned so that the possibilities of pregnancy are minimised. At certain times in the cycle, they are effectively 0% (eg post ovulation phase). The chance of someone who has had a vasectomy impregnating his wife will be greater than the chance a woman will get pregnant in the post-ovulation phase (assuming ovulation correctly identified).

I’m not sure if you have any protestant friends you could discuss this with, but it may help you to get another perspective. They simply don’t understand things the Catholic way.

As a father of four myself, I can understand that your husband may not want any more children. It is hard work at times and stressful. Responsible parenting may be, in his view, to stop there. Catholic ethics would not prohibit that. It is merely the manner in which he wishes to do it. Catholic ethics do prohibit a vasectomy, but his own ethics do not. So I think it would help to try to understand his viewpoint better.

 

[steph410]

Maybe we can start here. Why do you think the bolded is true? In my study of Church teaching on these matters I have seen absolutely nothing that would substantiate such a claim. We are clearly on different pages regarding the seriousness (not that his action isn’t serious) of the effects of your husbands actions on your marriage and it will probably help to try and see where the other person is coming from, so it might help to try and understand why you think his sterilization will somehow taint your marriage bed such that there is a lack of complete self-gift involved.

You can find this discussed at length in the Letter to Families from Pope John Paul II in 1994, for one. I can quote part of it here that applies “The two dimensions of conjugal union, the unitive and the procreative, cannot be artificially separated without damaging the deepest truth of the conjugal act itself”

 

[maryjk]

and I just love those of you who are trolling through the internet researching all my posts. how creepy! You have zero idea of what has happened in between any of my posts (which were quite few), so this is verging on nonsense.

Not creepy.

It simply helps us to see where you were a month ago.

And a month ago, you were concerned about your husband speaking to a doctor about a vasectomy.

Heck, 6 months ago, you were upset that you were ready for another child and he wasn’t. In fact you said,

but if there is no dire reason for avoiding, i’m not sure that is considered “open to life” and isn’t it selfishly based/against Church teaching?

So, you wanted another child and felt that not having one was “selfish and against Church teaching.”

Now, back to our questions. No we don’t want to know your address. Nor the names of your children. You don’t have to give us any information. But some information will help people answer your questions.

And in answer to your question.

Does anyone know if a Catholic can get a legal separation, rather than an official divorce?

Legally you can do what you want.
Church teaching?

“The separation of spouses, while maintaining the marriage bond, can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense” (#2383).

I don’t know that your husband committing a sin is a valid reason, according to Church teaching.

 

[steph410]

Depending on how one approaches NFP, it is disingenuous to say that there is still the possibility of children at certain times. You’re trying to avoid children, and trying to get something else from sex. That’s the point, that sex between married couples still holds real value when procreation is excluded. It is the manner in which it is excluded (contraception vs preiodic abstinence) that matters in Catholic sexual ethics.

I would disagree here. with NFP there is still a possibility of conception. no sin has been committed by abstaining for a time and then coming back together. This is even very clearly stated in the Bible as an expectation of a wife and husband. Sterilization is clearly prohibited by the Church. It is a sinful selfish act against God.

I also fear for the health of my husband if/when he gets it done. there are many cancers and other serious health problems that are linked to vasectomy. Like all other sins, there are consequences (in this case health and marital)- if they don’t show up right away, they eventually will. I want the best for him always.

 

[steph410]

I don’t know that your husband committing a sin is a valid reason, according to Church teaching.

well this was my original question and I still don’t have an answer. My thought is that I could be physically separated from him, but we would still technically be married. I would stay somewhat true to my vows by not re-marrying but at least would not be forced to live in a situation that I don’t feel would be a true marriage in the sense that God intended.

 

[underacloud]

I would disagree here. with NFP there is still a possibility of conception. no sin has been committed by abstaining for a time and then coming back together. This is even very clearly stated in the Bible as an expectation of a wife and husband. Sterilization is clearly prohibited by the Church. It is a sinful selfish act against God.

I’m not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with that I said?

Do you not understand that people practise vert strict forms of NFP that limit to effectively 0% chance of pregnancy? People with very severe medical risks for example. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach when serious reasons exist to avoid.

Again, it is not about how much chance there is of a pregnancy that makes NFP OK and contraception not OK. NFP practised so that there is 0% chance of pregnancy is perfectly OK in Catholic ethics, when serious reasons exist to avoid

I say this to challenge your notion that your husband would be merely “using you”. Sex also serves the purpose of uniting husband and wife, which is not rendered irrelevant because conception is impossible - think of naturally infertile couples, post-menopaus, etc.

I also fear for the health of my husband if/when he gets it done. there are many cancers and other serious health problems that are linked to vasectomy. Like all other sins, there are consequences (in this case health and marital)- if they don’t show up right away, they eventually will. I want the best for him always.

You want what’s best for him - that’s great! In that case, you will no doubt forget this absurd notion of separating.

 

[thewanderer]

You can find this discussed at length in the Letter to Families from Pope John Paul II in 1994, for one. I can quote part of it here that applies “The two dimensions of conjugal union, the unitive and the procreative, cannot be artificially separated without damaging the deepest truth of the conjugal act itself”

Thanks. I want to be sure to go back and read this in context before responding, and, since I don’t quite have the time for that right now will have to wait to answer more fully. I’m sorry for what you are going through. :hug1:

 

[maryjk]

I would disagree here. with NFP there is still a possibility of conception. no sin has been committed by abstaining for a time and then coming back together. This is even very clearly stated in the Bible as an expectation of a wife and husband. Sterilization is clearly prohibited by the Church. It is a sinful selfish act against God.

I also fear for the health of my husband if/when he gets it done. there are many cancers and other serious health problems that are linked to vasectomy. Like all other sins, there are consequences (in this case health and marital)- if they don’t show up right away, they eventually will. I want the best for him always.

Every sin is a selfish act against God. That is kind of the definition of sin.

Oh, and the type of NFP I practice? Really zero chance of getting pregnant. No relations unless I have verified ovulation, + enough days to ensure no egg could still be viable. Of course with my health and the medications I take, I really shouldn’t get pregnant.

well this was my original question and I still don’t have an answer. My thought is that I could be physically separated from him, but we would still technically be married. I would stay somewhat true to my vows by not re-marrying but at least would not be forced to live in a situation that I don’t feel would be a true marriage in the sense that God intended.

I guess I am still not getting this.

You are leaving him because he is committing a sin.

Have you never committed a sin? Never had to go to Confession? Never asked for forgiveness?

Are there any other sins that he might commit that would cause you to leave? Does he know of them?