Protestant hymns in the Catholic missal

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:gopray2:
All praise be to God, to the angels and to the Saints, that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - it sounds absolutely dreadful. :eek:

😛
I have never been subjected to that particular one, but, I do remember with horror:eek: “Sons of God” which had the congregation bopping and swaying to the “beat”. If anyone wants to read a very good article on dreadful 😦 hymns, here is the link to the Adoremus site, which has supplied me with a wealth of information and advice.adoremus.org/499Pasley.html
 
When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea… :hmmm:
Lots of protestant hymns came into the Catholic church during the affects of the Oxford Movement when lots of prominent protestants converted. As someone else stated, if the words are theologically sound and the music is good, why shouldn’t we sing it?
 
When I was growing up, we went to a Methodist Church for a time. I used to wonder how often Methodists were called to be martyrs for the faith when we sang the line in “Faith of Our Fathers.” You know, “We will be true to Thee 'till death.” It wasn’t until I converted to Catholicism that I finally figured out that this was a Catholic hymm. I know Protestants borrow liberally from Catholic hymnody–especially at Christmas! 🙂
I really get a chuckle when Protestants sing what they think are Protestant hymns when they are, in fact, Catholic ones. Faith of Our Fathers is certainly one of them. They would be shocked to know that Frederick Faber’s original third stanza (which is not to be found in any modern hymnal) reads:

Faith of our Fathers! Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to thee;
And through the truth that comes from God
England shall then indeed be free
 
When I converted to Catholicism 11 years ago, I was surprised how many protestant hymns were in the Catholic music missal. Just wondering: is the Catholic musical heritage so bereft of good hymns that we have to borrow from our seperated brethren (and I was REALLY surprised to see Martin Luther’s 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God included).

I dunno… maybe going back to the TLM and Gregorian Chant isn’t such a bad idea… :hmmm:
HELLO…DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD DISCRIMINATES BETWEEN A PROTESTANT AND A CATHOLIC PRAISE HYMN ? IF SINGING ‘AMAZING GRACE’ BRINGS ME CLOSER TO GOD THEN WHY REMOVE IT FROM THE HYMNAL BOOK ? THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHERE I WISH THE CHURCH WAS A LITTLE MORE DEMOCRATIC…WHY NOT LET LAY PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT TO INCLUDE/EXCLUDE ?!
EVEN IF ALL THE HYMNS SUNG AT CHURCH WERE WRITTEN BY MARTIN LUTHER , IT WOULD NOT MAKE ME A PROTESTANT !
ENJOY YOUR PRAISE AND WORSHIP AND LET GO OF ‘CLUTTER’ !
BLESSINGS !!!
 
HELLO…DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD DISCRIMINATES BETWEEN A PROTESTANT AND A CATHOLIC PRAISE HYMN ? IF SINGING ‘AMAZING GRACE’ BRINGS ME CLOSER TO GOD THEN WHY REMOVE IT FROM THE HYMNAL BOOK ? THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHERE I WISH THE CHURCH WAS A LITTLE MORE DEMOCRATIC…WHY NOT LET LAY PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT TO INCLUDE/EXCLUDE ?!
EVEN IF ALL THE HYMNS SUNG AT CHURCH WERE WRITTEN BY MARTIN LUTHER , IT WOULD NOT MAKE ME A PROTESTANT !
ENJOY YOUR PRAISE AND WORSHIP AND LET GO OF ‘CLUTTER’ !
BLESSINGS !!!
I’m not saying all Protestant songs are bad. However,I have a problem with the fact that our hymnal has a hymn by a man who broke with the Church and called it the Whore of Babylon.
 
I think it is AWESOME that Protestant songs are found. I love many of the songs and it’s something that attracts the younger generations to Mass.

I know many people who were raised in a conservative parish complete with organ and all the old 'favorites" who ended up leaving the church because it was ‘boring’. And then when these same people are brought to a more ‘modern’ church with ‘modern’ music, it brings them back to church and then, when they rediscover their faith, they gain new appreciation for the “old” or “classic” music.

I know what I am talking about about because I fell in this category myself.

The church I go to does a mixture between Catholic and Protestant–some weeks are more so than others–our music ministers try to get songs that reflect the readings/Gospel for the day and pull from both Catholic and Protestant resources.

–Barbara

P.S. The movie, “Amazing Grace” is an EXCELLENT movie, our priest highly recommended it!
 
I have not heard of it. Which actors are in it? Is it available on DVD?
It is still in the theaters. I believe the fellow who played Horatio Hornblower in the A&E movies is the star in it. It is about an Englishman named Wilburforce, who campaigns to stop the slave trade in early 19th century England.
 
I’m not saying all Protestant songs are bad. However,I have a problem with the fact that our hymnal has a hymn by a man who broke with the Church and called it the Whore of Babylon.
EXACTLY…SO LUTHER SINNED BY USING SUCH PROFANITIES AGAINST THE CHURCH ; NOW IF WE ARE TO BE MORE CHRIST-LIKE WE MUST FORGIVE PAST HURTS AND MOVE ON. I CANNOT THINK OF A MORE APPROPRIATE ACT OF RECONCILIATION BY US , THAN BY US KEEPING AND USING ‘PROTESTANT’ HYMNS. PROTESTANTS WHO ATTEND CATHOLIC WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS ARE GOING TO BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT WE ARE A TOLERANT AND REASONABLE FAITH. THAT ‘OPENING OF THE EYES AND MIND’ MAY JUST START WITH A BEAUTIFUL HYMN PENNED BY A REFORMIST !
PEACE…AND BLESSINGS ALWAYS.
 
:tiphat: OK, I’m back with a short list of “Protestant” hymns used by Catholics. I’ll use the following designations:

PL = lyrics written by a protestant
PM = music written by a protestant
SM = music has secular or cultural origin

For the Fruits of This Creation - SM
Holy, Holy, Holy - PL, PM
Now Thank We All Our God - PL, PM
O Breathe On Me, O Breath of God - SM
Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow - PL, PM
Praise to the Lord - PL, PM
Sent Forth By God’s Blessing - SM
This Day God Gives Me - SM
We Gather Together - PL, SM
See How the Virgin Waits - SM
From the Depths We Cry to Thee - PM
Jesus Christ Is Risen Today - PL
Lord, Who Throughout These Forty Days - PL, PM
O Sacred Head Surrounded - PM
Sing of Mary - SM
Come Ye Thankful People Come - PL, PM
For All the Saints - PL, PM

And most of the traditional Christmas carols we sing at church have protestant origins.
Eek, gads! I had no idea.

It’s almost like Canadians - they look like us, they sound like us…they could be among us and we wouldn’t even know.

Seriously, if it’s a good hymn and not in conflict with Catholic beliefs, no problem. But I would like to hear an occasional traditional Catholic hymn from time to time.

N.B.: Canadians…no offense and please take my comment above in the spirit of arcane humor with which it was meant 🙂
 
That’s an interesting list. I had always been under the impression that “This Day God Gives Me” was originally written by St. Patrick.
 
That’s an interesting list. I had always been under the impression that “This Day God Gives Me” was originally written by St. Patrick.
You are correct, the lyrics for “This Day God Gives Me” are ascribed to St. Patrick, but if you look at the list again, you’ll see the designation I gave it is “SM” meaning that the MUSIC (not the lyrics) is secular in origin. The music is traditionally Gaelic.
 
We as Catholics ought to be thankful for the rich musical resources that we have to use.

I am a church musician and a recent convert from the Lutheran church. I am amazed at the variety in Catholic music. We have traditional, contemporary, multi-cultural, etc.

I shouldn’t criticize the Lutherans, (But I will). They have a reputation of fine music, but the music is so much the same. They have hymn after hymn that sounds good only on the organ. I make a joke that the Lutherans that don’t use any musc written after 1650. That has quite a bit of truth to it. The music from the southern tradition, baptists etc. also has a sameness about it. The contemporary music used by so much of Protestantism has a lot of “Praise God, praise God, praise God, praise God. The end” to it; not much substance.

I thank the fine composers who have given us such varied richness. We can use music of almost any style that we choose.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

P.S. The Lutherans don’t have a copyright on “A Mighty Fortress”. We can use it all we want.
Actually Martin Luther, though a heretic, nonetheless was a very gifted musician, probably having written a whole bunch of songs before he went off the deep end.

It’s tough to say what’s Protestant and what’s Catholic though. JS Bach, the master of all musicians, was a Lutheran but he was paid to write music for a Catholic prince. Mass in B minor is totally divine.

Then you have gifted musicians like Mozart, who, other than the fact he was a Freemason, nevertheless has music that is played even at Tridentine Masses. Go figure.

By the way, you guys left off Come Holy Ghost, perhaps my favorite since I was a kid.
 
As a professional orchestra musician, I am appalled at some of the insipid, banal “contemporary hymns” I hear at most Catholic masses. (OK, there are a few good ones too…but way too few.) I have no problem with “Protestant” music being used (Hey guys, that includes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Mendellsohn!) as long as it is theologically sound. Amazing Grace is not (we have that assured salvation thing going on there.)

I also object to A Mighty Fortress is Our God. If you ever see a transcript of the REAL original text to that hymn you will understand why. It includes such tidbits as “save as from the evil Pope”. The history of such things has meaning, no matter that the words have been changed in the Luthern hymnal for centuries and indeed most Lutheran church musicians are not familiar with Martin Luther’s original text. That hymn was a war cry against the Catholic Church and many people, both Catholic and Protestant, lost their lives in the years of bloody struggle following the so-called reformation. (Remember Martin Luther’s promise to “wash his hands in the blood of Catholics”.)

We have a rich tradition of music in the Catholic Church and there is much wonderful, theologically sound Protestant music from which to borrow. We don’t need to use music that historically promoted violence, adds confusion to an already widely doctrinally confused laity, or promotes an "“it’s all about me and how good I feel” type theology to really bad music.

Just my two cents.
  • Ann
 
As a professional orchestra musician, I am appalled at some of the insipid, banal “contemporary hymns” I hear at most Catholic masses. (OK, there are a few good ones too…but way too few.) I have no problem with “Protestant” music being used (Hey guys, that includes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Mendellsohn!) as long as it is theologically sound. Amazing Grace is not (we have that assured salvation thing going on there.)
I never got any bad vibes referring to OSAS in “Amazing Grace”.
 
As a professional orchestra musician, I am appalled at some of the insipid, banal “contemporary hymns” I hear at most Catholic masses. (OK, there are a few good ones too…but way too few.) I have no problem with “Protestant” music being used (Hey guys, that includes Bach, **Mozart, **Beethoven and **Mendellsohn **as long as it is theologically sound. Amazing Grace is not (we have that assured salvation thing going on there.)

Just my two cents.
  • Ann
Protestant composers? Bach. Yup. Lutheran.
But…
tjp-online.com/musicarchive/mozart/bio1.html
“In Leopold Mozart’s house, religion always held a prominent place. He was a devout and unquestioning Catholic, and assumed that his children would emulate him. And Wolfgang, during his childhood, was certainly as observant of Catholic practices as his father could wish. But his religion was as much a sort of miniicry as was his mastery of every musical style. As he matured, he did not so much rebel against the Church as lose interest in it.”

net.unl.edu/musicFeat/composer/cmmendelssohn.html
“Mendelssohn was the grandson of Moses Mendelssohn, one of the leading philosophers in the Enlightenment era. In his work Jerusalem (1783), Moses Mendelssohn conveyed to Jews a way of engaging with the Christian world in which they found themselves without turning their backs on Judaism.”
(Yes he was baptized. Yes he married a protestant minister’s daughter. But protestant in his thought and heart, I doubt.)

its.caltech.edu/~tan/BeethovenMissaSolemnis/religious_views.html
“From historical evidence, today’s scholars know that Beethoven did not attend Mass regularly, and from that they inferred that he was not an orthodox Christian. His actual religious beliefs are not clearly defined, but references in his letters imply a firm belief in an ultimate, benign, and intelligent Power.”
 
As a professional orchestra musician, I am appalled at some of the insipid, banal “contemporary hymns” I hear at most Catholic masses. (OK, there are a few good ones too…but way too few.) I have no problem with “Protestant” music being used (Hey guys, that includes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Mendellsohn!) as long as it is theologically sound. Amazing Grace is not (we have that assured salvation thing going on there.)

I also object to A Mighty Fortress is Our God. If you ever see a transcript of the REAL original text to that hymn you will understand why. It includes such tidbits as “save as from the evil Pope”. The history of such things has meaning, no matter that the words have been changed in the Luthern hymnal for centuries and indeed most Lutheran church musicians are not familiar with Martin Luther’s original text. That hymn was a war cry against the Catholic Church and many people, both Catholic and Protestant, lost their lives in the years of bloody struggle following the so-called reformation. (Remember Martin Luther’s promise to “wash his hands in the blood of Catholics”.)

We have a rich tradition of music in the Catholic Church and there is much wonderful, theologically sound Protestant music from which to borrow. We don’t need to use music that historically promoted violence, adds confusion to an already widely doctrinally confused laity, or promotes an "“it’s all about me and how good I feel” type theology to really bad music.

Just my two cents.
  • Ann
A most interesting post. Actually I can’t disagree with you on the lyrics of those pieces you mention, although the tune behind Our Mighty Fortress is somewhat appealing and majestic sounding.

But that’s the point. Don’t the instrumental pieces of Bach, Mozart, etc. also add to the worship of God? It seems as if we spend too much time trying to analyze the lyrics when they can always be changed to fit the tune. Or can they? Either that or add more lyrics, such as the 4th verse to our national anthem to make it religious enough to be played in any church and make everyone happy.
 
Protestant composers? Bach. Yup. Lutheran.
But…
tjp-online.com/musicarchive/mozart/bio1.html
“In Leopold Mozart’s house, religion always held a prominent place. He was a devout and unquestioning Catholic, and assumed that his children would emulate him. And Wolfgang, during his childhood, was certainly as observant of Catholic practices as his father could wish. But his religion was as much a sort of miniicry as was his mastery of every musical style. As he matured, he did not so much rebel against the Church as lose interest in it.”

net.unl.edu/musicFeat/composer/cmmendelssohn.html
“Mendelssohn was the grandson of Moses Mendelssohn, one of the leading philosophers in the Enlightenment era. In his work Jerusalem (1783), Moses Mendelssohn conveyed to Jews a way of engaging with the Christian world in which they found themselves without turning their backs on Judaism.”
(Yes he was baptized. Yes he married a protestant minister’s daughter. But protestant in his thought and heart, I doubt.)

its.caltech.edu/~tan/BeethovenMissaSolemnis/religious_views.html
“From historical evidence, today’s scholars know that Beethoven did not attend Mass regularly, and from that they inferred that he was not an orthodox Christian. His actual religious beliefs are not clearly defined, but references in his letters imply a firm belief in an ultimate, benign, and intelligent Power.”
Everything you post here is quite accurate … however, Mozart was an active member of the Masonic Lodge and while some of his earlier music was used in church, when he refused to dissassociate himself from the Masons, it was banned from liturgical use in the Catholic Church. Evidently Mozart had considerably more loyalty to the Masons than to the Catholic Church. Obviously some of his music, especially the masses, are quite Catholic in nature, but were not accepted by the Church in his lifetime.

As for Mendellsohn, he converted to Lutheranism and after Bach, is one of the stars of that denomination’s musical heritage. (Now why anyone would have the wedding march from his incidental music to Shakespear’s Midsummer Nights Dream played at their wedding I don’t understand … not a particularly orthodox marriage portrayed in that play!!)

And Beethoven, as you noted, was not known to be orthodox in his religious practice.

I only mentioned those giants of the musical world as examples of composers from whom we draw regularly who were not practicing Catholics writing music that was used liturgically …indeed they were more Potestant in their religious practice. Perhaps I should have qualified their music as not being Catholic Church music, rather than Protestant.

My intent was not to start a debate about how devout Beethoven was or wasn’t, or when Mendellsohn converted, or if Mozart’s Masonic involvement excluded him from the Catholic Church. My point was that these men were NOT practicing Catholics and their music was not used liturgically by the Catholic Church at the time it was written, yet I see no problem with using their masterful works, as they are for the most part theologically quite sound.

Please understand my intent here: It was to point out that I see no problem with using music that was not originally used in the Catholic Church. I have no objection to using good hymns, cantatas, masses, etc. that come from non-Catholic sources or other religious traditions as long as it does not contradict Catholic teaching. Off the top of my head I can thing of one composer’s “Mass” that would never (I hope!!!) be used in a Catholic liturgical service … that is the Mass by Leonard Bernstein.

Perhaps I should have been more specific and I apoligize if I was a bit flip in the way I originally stated my thoughts.

My other main point was my objection to some of the absolutely horrible contemporary hymns (both musically and theologically) in use today, along with a bit of comment on why I find Amazing Graze and A Might Fortress objectionable for liturgical use.

Thank you for your well-considered comments, but please understand my point. I guess I’m one of those people who consider’s anything Christian, but not authentically Catholic, to be Protestant. (A converstaion I’ve had with some of my Southen Baptist in-laws who do not consider themselves to be “Protestant”.)

I must say that as a new member to these forums, I am enjoying reading the posts. This is the first one I’ve participated in. The courtesy with which debates are held here is quite refreshing in the world of the Internet!

The Lord be with you,
  • Ann
 
Ann,
I really do enjoy reading posts from someone educated in traditional music. I am truly underwhelmed at the mediocrity of comtemporary music. And having been raised in the Bible Belt in fundamentalist churches I am also aware of the poor theological sentiments of “protestant” hymns.

I wonder why today we cannot seem to produce theologically sound, singable hymns with fitting majesty for Catholic worship?

Good to have you in the forum.
Slyboots
 
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