Protestant hymns?

[snhs]

I expect them to continue with their principle of locality, since most of us have enough common sense to know what works and what doesn’t.

I will continue to select music that is well liked. I have found those music directors that do not end up with performances over participation. Why do Catholics not sing? Because music directors to do choose well those things which can and will be sung.

I understand, but as long as the rules are being followed, then the idea that worship is diminished is in the opinion of the beholder, or the meddler. Again, no rule exists that prohibits hymns based soley on being used in Protestant services. One can argue from silence all day long, but it is a poor arguement. If the Church has not spoken on a subject, no one here has the authority to speak for the Church.

You appear to misunderstand the current situation. Rome has not given carte blanche to do whatever ‘works’.

They have set guidelines, and if as an additional quality the hymns chosen ‘work’ then fine, but first and foremost they should meet the standards the Church has issued. And whenever they do not meet those then it is a failing on the part of whoever has made that decision. And far more Catholics sing when you stick to well known and traditional hymns rather than trying to cram a Protestant hymnal down their throats to convenience those who may have a passing preference for the music within it.

The rules are in many cases not being followed and that is where the problem lies. And it is not in the eye of the beholder if according to the guidelines the Church has set it falls in to the category of being “less worthy of the Temple”. No rules exist which ban all hymns used in Protestant services, perhaps in the early days Protestants may even have used Chant, but guidelines do exist by which we can judge the suitability of hymns for the Mass.

The Church has spoken on the matter, if some persist on sticking their fingers in their ears then so be it, but eventually the will of the Church shall prevail over what some lay liturgists think ‘works’.

 

[pnewton]

You appear to misunderstand the current situation. Rome has not given carte blanche to do whatever ‘works’.

I understand perfectly well and I have never said “carte blanche”. Allowing good hymns that meet all criteria, but are Protestant in origin is a long way from carte blanche. I have never crammed anything down anyone’s throat. Quite the opposite. I believe no more than one or two new songs should be introduce any liturgical season. Most hymns should be familiat favorites. In fact, I have “re-introduced” more older Catholic hymns that have been squeezed out of the way than Protestant hymns from the hymnal. Two of our Masses frequented by the older folks like the style of hymns. In fact, I am quicker to add in a common Protestant hymn that a modern, contemporary Catholic song, done more in the praise and worship style, which I find is not very conducive to Mass. The lyrics are richer and less “weird” and the music is nobler.

Here is my criteria:

1. That which is not forbidden is on the table. Not to worry, most will fall by the wayside soon.
2. Anything that my priest does not like is eliminated. Anything that is beyond the resources of my parish is not considered. This still leaves a lot.
3. Everything inconsistent with Catholic doctrine is never considered. Here, 80% of all Protestant stuff gets the ax.

Only now do we get to the more subjective elements. Traditional Catholic hymns are given first priority. Familar hymns and songs get the next highest consideration and I have 95% of my music. Right now, we rotate through about 140 songs a year, including seasonal music.

I think there may be a little misunderstanding, though. When I say that my parish likes the Protestant hymns, it is mostly the “hymn” part they like.

 

[Cat]

You appear to misunderstand the current situation. Rome has not given carte blanche to do whatever ‘works’.

They have set guidelines, and if as an additional quality the hymns chosen ‘work’ then fine, but first and foremost they should meet the standards the Church has issued. And whenever they do not meet those then it is a failing on the part of whoever has made that decision. And far more Catholics sing when you stick to well known and traditional hymns rather than trying to cram a Protestant hymnal down their throats to convenience those who may have a passing preference for the music within it.

The rules are in many cases not being followed and that is where the problem lies. And it is not in the eye of the beholder if according to the guidelines the Church has set it falls in to the category of being “less worthy of the Temple”. No rules exist which ban all hymns used in Protestant services, perhaps in the early days Protestants may even have used Chant, but guidelines do exist by which we can judge the suitability of hymns for the Mass.

The Church has spoken on the matter, if some persist on sticking their fingers in their ears then so be it, but eventually the will of the Church shall prevail over what some lay liturgists think ‘works’.

Boldface mine–How can you make such a sweeping statement? Have you access to a scientific study or analysis that has been done on “liturgical music practices in the Catholic Church?”

I refuse to accept this statement. Prove it. Cite the studies. If you can’t, then don’t make broad generalizations and try to prove points with them.

 

[JReducation]

Incorporating culture is a Catholic tradition 2000 years in the making. Most holidays were an incorporation of pagan holidays. Polyphony was an incorporation of popular secular music. Even Mary apeared to the Mayans as a Mayan. Today, if you attend mass in Africa, you will find cultural elements used in worship, as you will in Latin America. None of this should preclude or overshadow the wealth of Catholic culture. But, hey, everything was new at some point.

Even the man whom the Church calls The Mirror of Perfection (Francis of Assisi) incorporated some culture into the the liturgy of the mass and the liturgy of the hours when he founded his religious community. He prohibitted the use of Gregorian Chant in the Liturgy of the Hours, a rule that the Friars Minor still follow. The recite, not chant the Office. Those Brothers who were priests were to keep the chants very simple so the people could sing along. And he wrote Laudas (nothing to do with Lauds) which were songs of praise in Italian to be played with a mandolin, not an organ, at masses celebrated by the Brothers.

The four famous ones that are still in use today:

1. Make Me And Instrument of Your Peace (for which he wrote the music)
2. All Creatures of Our God and King (for which he wrote the lyrics and music)
3. Brother Sun (for which he wrote the lyrics)
4. Queen of Heaven Rejoice (for whichhe wrote the lyrics and music)

Some of these were very Italian while others had melodies very similar to traditional hymns, but were sung in Italian, not Latin.

There is a whole school of music called the Laudas School of Music based on St. Francis’ integration between culture and religious music.

St. Teresa of Avila also wrote some religious music and hymns to be played on a guitar.

Silent Night was written for the guitar and sung in German, with the solemness of traditional Christian music blended in.

We have many examples of Christian music that has been used in the Church that is not strictly Gregorian or even meant to be sung in Latin or with an organ. We have adapted some pieces so they can be played on the organ, but have kept them in the vernacular.

JR

 

[JReducation]

You appear to misunderstand the current situation. Rome has not given carte blanche to do whatever ‘works’.

They have set guidelines, and if as an additional quality the hymns chosen ‘work’ then fine, but first and foremost they should meet the standards the Church has issued. And whenever they do not meet those then it is a failing on the part of whoever has made that decision. And far more Catholics sing when you stick to well known and traditional hymns rather than trying to cram a Protestant hymnal down their throats to convenience those who may have a passing preference for the music within it.

The rules are in many cases not being followed and that is where the problem lies. And it is not in the eye of the beholder if according to the guidelines the Church has set it falls in to the category of being “less worthy of the Temple”. No rules exist which ban all hymns used in Protestant services, perhaps in the early days Protestants may even have used Chant, but guidelines do exist by which we can judge the suitability of hymns for the Mass.

The Church has spoken on the matter, if some persist on sticking their fingers in their ears then so be it, but eventually the will of the Church shall prevail over what some lay liturgists think ‘works’.

What do you have against lay liturgists? There are many lay liturgists employed by the Church. Not all liturgists and theologians are clerics. I wouldn’t throw that out there the way you have. It can be very offensive to lay liturgists.

JR

 

[CradleCath]

Are there other “Protestant hymns” in the Catholic hymnals besides “Amazing Grace” (which many of us consider Catholic) and ****"Battle Hymn of the Republic (which many of us consider Catholic)? ****
In other threads, people have mentioned “Shine Jesus Shine,” and “Our God Is An Awesome God.” Can someone spell out what is “Protestant” about these contemporary hymns?

Thanks.

I know that I’m coming late to this thread, but I just can’t stand the “Battle Hymn of the Republic” played or sang in Church. I have a personal reason. My Uncle Bill served with the 101st Airborne during WWII. He was a paratrooper & fought all the way from Normandy to Hitler’s “Eagle’s nest”. He lost one of his legs in the war, so he spent some time at our house afterwards. He was my Mother’s Brother. I was only about 6yrs. old when he finally got out of the hospital & came to live with us for 2 years.

His Airforce buddies came to visit him often. One time, I heard singing from the dining room & kinda’ snuck in. There they were, these men…with empty beer cans all over the table…singing the Battle Hymn on the Repulic with different words. There were probably 20 verses, but I can only remember one:

“There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the chute,
Intestines were a’dangling from his Paratrooper suit,
He was a mess; they picked him up, and poured him from his boots,
And he ain’t gonna jump no more
Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
He ain’t gonna jump no more!”

NOPE. This isn’t a song for any Church, Catholic or Protestant.

 

[Cat]

I know that I’m coming late to this thread, but I just can’t stand the “Battle Hymn of the Republic” played or sang in Church. I have a personal reason. My Uncle Bill served with the 101st Airborne during WWII. He was a paratrooper & fought all the way from Normandy to Hitler’s “Eagle’s nest”. He lost one of his legs in the war, so he spent some time at our house afterwards. He was my Mother’s Brother. I was only about 6yrs. old when he finally got out of the hospital & came to live with us for 2 years.

His Airforce buddies came to visit him often. One time, I heard singing from the dining room & kinda’ snuck in. There they were, these men…with empty beer cans all over the table…singing the Battle Hymn on the Repulic with different words. There were probably 20 verses, but I can only remember one:

“There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the chute,
Intestines were a’dangling from his Paratrooper suit,
He was a mess; they picked him up, and poured him from his boots,
And he ain’t gonna jump no more
Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
He ain’t gonna jump no more!”

NOPE. This isn’t a song for any Church, Catholic or Protestant.

I agree that the words your uncle and his buds sang isn’t appropriate for any church.

But those aren’t the words that are sung after Mass. Those words are just fine, at least, I think they are. Very inspiring.

I just finished reading Hillaire Belloc’s book on the Crusades, and after considering the last page, I think maybe we all ought to screw up our courage and prepare to die to make men free. I agree that peace is the ideal, but are we willing to give up our faith and all that is dear to us for the sake of a “peace?” The Crusaders weren’t, and I hope that if the time comes (Pray for Peace), that I will be ready to “die to make men free.”

 

[BSHoop96]

I know that I’m coming late to this thread, but I just can’t stand the “Battle Hymn of the Republic” played or sang in Church. I have a personal reason. My Uncle Bill served with the 101st Airborne during WWII. He was a paratrooper & fought all the way from Normandy to Hitler’s “Eagle’s nest”. He lost one of his legs in the war, so he spent some time at our house afterwards. He was my Mother’s Brother. I was only about 6yrs. old when he finally got out of the hospital & came to live with us for 2 years.

His Airforce buddies came to visit him often. One time, I heard singing from the dining room & kinda’ snuck in. There they were, these men…with empty beer cans all over the table…singing the Battle Hymn on the Repulic with different words. There were probably 20 verses, but I can only remember one:

“There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the chute,
Intestines were a’dangling from his Paratrooper suit,
He was a mess; they picked him up, and poured him from his boots,
And he ain’t gonna jump no more
Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
He ain’t gonna jump no more!”

NOPE. This isn’t a song for any Church, Catholic or Protestant.

But how do you feel about the real song?

I think as a 6 year old you witnessed what many young men in battle do. Make light of that which is terrifying to make it not seem so. And they used a well-known song. They also use ridiculous songs to pump themselves up. Have you ever heard a cadence song while they are drilling? On second thought, probably better if you haven’t.

Anyway, I admire the service of your uncle.

 

[BSHoop96]

I understand perfectly well and I have never said “carte blanche”. Allowing good hymns that meet all criteria, but are Protestant in origin is a long way from carte blanche. I have never crammed anything down anyone’s throat. Quite the opposite. I believe no more than one or two new songs should be introduce any liturgical season. Most hymns should be familiat favorites. In fact, I have “re-introduced” more older Catholic hymns that have been squeezed out of the way than Protestant hymns from the hymnal. Two of our Masses frequented by the older folks like the style of hymns. In fact, I am quicker to add in a common Protestant hymn that a modern, contemporary Catholic song, done more in the praise and worship style, which I find is not very conducive to Mass. The lyrics are richer and less “weird” and the music is nobler.

Here is my criteria:

1. That which is not forbidden is on the table. Not to worry, most will fall by the wayside soon.
2. Anything that my priest does not like is eliminated. Anything that is beyond the resources of my parish is not considered. This still leaves a lot.
3. Everything inconsistent with Catholic doctrine is never considered. Here, 80% of all Protestant stuff gets the ax.

Only now do we get to the more subjective elements. Traditional Catholic hymns are given first priority. Familar hymns and songs get the next highest consideration and I have 95% of my music. Right now, we rotate through about 140 songs a year, including seasonal music.

I think there may be a little misunderstanding, though. When I say that my parish likes the Protestant hymns, it is mostly the “hymn” part they like.

That sounds sensible to me. Personally I prefer a good old “protestant” song over the modern stuff, catholic or protestant.

On another note, I was in CA this year and went to Mass where I heard “How Great Thou Art”. Are there objections to this, does anyone know? I love that hymn.

 

[CradleCath]

But how do you feel about the real song?

I think as a 6 year old you witnessed what many young men in battle do. Make light of that which is terrifying to make it not seem so. And they used a well-known song.

Absolutely. He & his friends went through some rough times together & that probably helped.

They also use ridiculous songs to pump themselves up. Have you ever heard a cadence song while they are drilling? On second thought, probably better if you haven’t.
Anyway, I admire the service of your uncle.

 

[BSHoop96]

Thank you. I like the real song, but I think of it as a patriotic song…probably because of it’s relationship to the civil war & to “John Brown’s Body”. For the Church, my favority music during Mass is either Gregorian Chant or Polyphony. It has a sacred sound.

Yes, I love the song but also think of it more as a patriotic song.

I do like Gregorian Chant but am not familiar with Polyphony…at least I don’t think I am.

My family was not Catholic. When I was little I remember them listening to people like Tennessee Ernie Ford singing the old protestant hymns and I must say they are some of my favorites and I miss them. I don’t care for modern christian music at all.

 

[Andrewcarey]

We don’t have a good music director. Our music director refuses to play an organ and the music at Mass is all **PROTESTANT **songs , wished our music director would use an organ instead of a paino.

 

[BSHoop96]

We don’t have a good music director. Our music director refuses to play an organ and the music at Mass is all **PROTESTANT **songs , wished our music director would use an organ instead of a paino.

Actually some people can’t play both. As I child I could play the organ, but not the piano.

We have a good music director and when he came he could only play the piano but has taught himself to play the organ. We also have an organist. I think his choice of music is pretty good but occasionally we have some of the more modern songs and I don’t care for them.

When you say all Protestant songs do you mean their old stuff or the new stuff??? As in something like “Rock of Ages” or “Our God is an Awesome God”?? Just curious.

 

[Andrewcarey]

What I refer as a Protestant songs like “Rock of Ages”, “All Are Welcome”, “God of our Fathers”, etc, that’s what I mean.

Actually some people can’t play both. As I child I could play the organ, but not the piano.

We have a good music director and when he came he could only play the piano but has taught himself to play the organ. We also have an organist. I think his choice of music is pretty good but occasionally we have some of the more modern songs and I don’t care for them.

When you say all Protestant songs do you mean their old stuff or the new stuff??? As in something like “Rock of Ages” or “Our God is an Awesome God”?? Just curious.

 

[Cat]

We don’t have a good music director. Our music director refuses to play an organ and the music at Mass is all **PROTESTANT **songs , wished our music director would use an organ instead of a paino.

I can’t play both.

I am an excellent piano player, but I can’t even begin to play an organ.

Even though it looks like a piano, the only real simliarity is the keyboard. Everything else is totally different. To me, an organ is more like a woodwind instrument (e.g., a clarinet) than a piano. I can’t play a woodwind instrument, either.

It’s too bad that your music director can’t play both, but if he/she is like me, well–just be glad you have someone who can play something and stop mentally blaming him/her for his/her lack of ability. A Mass with no music reads better than it lives.

 

[snhs]

Boldface mine–How can you make such a sweeping statement? Have you access to a scientific study or analysis that has been done on “liturgical music practices in the Catholic Church?”

I refuse to accept this statement. Prove it. Cite the studies. If you can’t, then don’t make broad generalizations and try to prove points with them.

Well lets begin with what Bishops and Popes have to say on it. I’ve referred you already to what your own Bishop had to say about it, how, despite his health problems, he thought it important enough to bring it up at a meeting with the DPC, how he had the head of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission speak to them and how that Priest specifically brought up the problems which can exist with lay liturgists. In the Liturgy and Sacraments forum Benedictgal and others have quoted from documents by Pope Saint Pius X, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Pope John Paul II felt the need to reiterate the the position of Saint Pius X, making it his own and thereby reminding people that that was still the official view of the Church. Pope Benedict XVI has confronted the issue several times, including in Sacramentum Caritatis, again Benedictgal has referred you to various books, and provided many excerpts which specifically deal with the problems of inappropriate music. Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect of the CDW, has also spoke on this issue many times. Now in case you don’t get where this is headed the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops do not speak on something at this length if it is an isolated problem in one or two Parishes.

Just to add, the very fact you are asking for evidence is fairly laughable given your track record.

What do you have against lay liturgists? There are many lay liturgists employed by the Church. Not all liturgists and theologians are clerics. I wouldn’t throw that out there the way you have. It can be very offensive to lay liturgists.

Nothing. Which is precisely why I said “some lay liturgists” rather than “all lay litugists”. The problem only exists when some of them they put their own preference on to the Mass ahead of what the Church wants, whether they are aware of it or not.

 

[snhs]

I think there may be a little misunderstanding, though. When I say that my parish likes the Protestant hymns, it is mostly the “hymn” part they like.

I think it may be a misunderstanding. When you said “most of us have enough common sense to know what works and what doesn’t”, I took it as putting “what works” ahead of the criteria the Church has actually said, thanks for clarifying.

And I’m not against all Protestant hymns being used. The important thing is that we retain the heritage of the Church and don’t diminish it in even the slightest way with hymns which are less suitable.

 

[pnewton]

And I’m not against all Protestant hymns being used. The important thing is that we retain the heritage of the Church and don’t diminish it in even the slightest way with hymns which are less suitable.

Yes, be it music produced by Protestants or Catholics.

 

[peary1]

I’ve seen people use this term in their posts and I’m not sure what they are talking about.

Are we talking about lyrics or music written by Protestants, or about hymns that extol Protestant doctrines, or something else?

Please list some of the Protestant hymns that you hear used in the Mass that you attend and explain why you consider them “Protestant.”

Thank you.

**Well, for starters, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God comes to mind.

 

[nampal]

Look everything from a different perspective…

The Catholic chuch is huge and claims to be the true Church but more than 70% of the hymns used in the Church is of protestant-origin. Only a few Catholic churches use Catholic hymns these days. Doesn’t it show lack of something in the Church which do not lack talented persons compared to much smaller protestant churches?

Everyhere I hear Catholics use proetstant hymns which carry Protestan/evangelical theology.

It undoubttedly show serious lack of truth in the Catholic church (not talents), whether someone accepts it or not.