Protestant Hymns

[T.More]

I wonder if Protestant hymns were included in order to make the Liturgy of Hours more ecumenical and appealing to Protestants. My understanding is that ecumenical concerns motiviated the omission of prayers to or about Mary in the Shorter Christian Prayer (just morning and evening prayers), which is the version I have.

 

[mercygate]

T. More:

I wonder if Protestant hymns were included in order to make the Liturgy of Hours more ecumenical and appealing to Protestants. My understanding is that ecumenical concerns motiviated the omission of prayers to or about Mary in the Shorter Christian Prayer (just morning and evening prayers), which is the version I have.

I think the number of Protestants who use any form of the Liturgy of the Hours is, and will remain, insignificant. Those who do pray the hours are probably already more “catholic” in their thinking than half the people in Catholic pews today.

 

[buffalo]

Should we be watering down Catholicism to be ecumenical?

I thought the basis of ecunumenism was to find the truths we do share and build on them, rather than make concessions to those who are separated.

 

[T.More]

Mercygate: You are probably right about the number of Protestants being small. John Brook, in his The School of Prayer: The Divine Office for All Christians (amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814620280/qid=1095887493/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-1687673-3748130?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), does make the point, though, that one reason for the omissions of Mary was to foster Protestant relations.

Dave: I think the move (deemphasis on Mary) is good. If you look through the prayers of Bible (the Psalms are a good example), they are always to God and never to saints or others. The Divine Office has a solid emphasis on praying the psalms, which should be an ecumenical point of contact.

T. More

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Timidity:

I really don’t understand why people get so hung up about this. Just because Amazing Grace for example, may have been written by a protestant does not mean that it is fundementally flawed.

It is a beautiful piece of music, and it teaches a basic Christian doctrine that is a cornerstone of the Catholic faith.

Just a quick note: On several occasions, I have heard Father Echert (of EWTN expert fame), mention that the idea that we are “wretches” is totally non-Catholic. We believe that once baptized we are still weak and subject to sin, but not wretches. He has illustrated this by comparing it to Martin Luther’s “dung heap covered with snow.” (Sorry, but I guess those are his words!). Thus, the latter idea would mean that we are always sinful wretches, but sort of covered over by a God that prefers not to look at it.

I hope I am doing him justice, (Father, that is), but that is certainly the general idea he has expressed on serveral occasions.

I admit I am not a big fan of the hymn, nor of many other infiltrations whether of Protestant origin or Modern Catholic regardless of conformity to Catholic theology.

God bless,

Anna

 

[pnewton]

buffalo:

I thought the basis of ecunumenism was to find the truths we do share and build on them, rather than make concessions to those who are separated.

Exactly. There is so more common ground between all Christians than differences. I grew up with many of the older protestant hymns and still enjoy singing the ones with theologically acceptable lyrics.

I have no problem with one prior to conversion or lost in mortal sin being considered a wretch and neither did Jesus (Rev. 2:17)

 

[stellina]

pnewton:

I grew up with many of the older protestant hymns and still enjoy singing the ones with theologically acceptable lyrics. (Rev. 2:17)

Good point. Maybe I agree because chronologically I’m a post-Vatican II baby (well, I was born during the council, but I grew up in the post-conciliar era) and I just don’t remember a time when there was a firm distinction made between Protestant & Catholic hymns & their acceptibility.

I also grew up in a parish where the pastor was a good old-fashioned Irishman who favored the “old school” hymns. As I got older, I learned that most of these are actually shared between all sorts of Christian denominations and focus on very basic things common to virtually all Christians. As long as there isn’t anything really glaring that contravenes Catholic teaching, I don’t see a problem. Frankly, I’d rather hear “Amazing Grace” anyday over the drivel that masquerades as modern liturgical music, like “On Eagle’s Wings”.

 

[mercygate]

As for the Catholic theology of “wretch like me,” as an earlier poster noted, the history of that hymn tells the whole story. The author was a slave trader who experienced a deep conversion and spent the rest of his life working for abolition.

 

[buffalo]

mercygate:

As for the Catholic theology of “wretch like me,” as an earlier poster noted, the history of that hymn tells the whole story. The author was a slave trader who experienced a deep conversion and spent the rest of his life working for abolition.

There is a lot more to that story.

 

[MattG]

Our choir, being led by an amateur, interim director until a professional is hired, has begun rehearsing an older song our former director, a convert to the Faith,. purchased. At first presentation of the song I commented that it was heretical. Read a repeated lyric and let me know what the thought here is. I have told our director that I will abide by our Pastor’s decision.

The Hymn is titled, Think of Me and is not to be confused with a similar tune from “The Phantom of the Opera” by A.L. Webber.
Unfortunately, I haven’t the score in front of me, so this is only an impression of the contents, although accurate, with a possible variation that does not absolve it.

In the song, the singer / listener sings / hears that when we eat the bread and drink the wine we are to Think of Me. The verb ‘take’ may also be used in repetitions of the line.

The words body and blood are used once in a sense that doesn’'t imply the bread and wine become them, but again without the score I am at a disadvantage.

What is posted is to me heresy enough until corrected by competent, ecclesiastical authority and forgive the redundancy in this sentence.

Later, with the score in hand, I’ll attempt to respond to those who reply to this. Until then,

 

[otm]

stellina:

Good point. Maybe I agree because chronologically I’m a post-Vatican II baby (well, I was born during the council, but I grew up in the post-conciliar era) and I just don’t remember a time when there was a firm distinction made between Protestant & Catholic hymns & their acceptibility.

I also grew up in a parish where the pastor was a good old-fashioned Irishman who favored the “old school” hymns. As I got older, I learned that most of these are actually shared between all sorts of Christian denominations and focus on very basic things common to virtually all Christians. As long as there isn’t anything really glaring that contravenes Catholic teaching, I don’t see a problem. Frankly, I’d rather hear “Amazing Grace” anyday over the drivel that masquerades as modern liturgical music, like “On Eagle’s Wings”.

Yeah, we really wouldn’t want such drivel as “on Eagle’s Wings”, I mean, who would want to sing one of the Psalms? Such Drivel! Really! Imagine a Psalm masquerading as liturgical music?!!!

NOT! :whacky:

 

[Detroit_Sue]

I love “A Mighty Fortress” Maybe it’s because it reminds me of Davey & Goliath . Seriously, that hymn always brings tears to my eyes. I also love “How Great Thou Art.” That was my mom’s second favorite (she was a convert), right after “Ave Maria.”

 

[ThomasAquinas25]

Listen, the long and short is that through song we praise God. He likes that. Just because a song/hymn appears in a protestant hymnal does make the song bad. However if the theology is bad then it is indeed a bad song. I was protestant and now I am Catholic.

On that note: What is up with some folks trying to be so Protestant? If you don’t like the way things are at Church… don’t try to make it more “real”. People are to quick to say, " I just feel like it should be" … or “I don’t agree with this because” Folks we have the FULLNESS of Truth. If you don’t like being Catholic either go be protestant or suck it up and be Catholic. Guess what … Luther did not like what he saw.

Ok… I am off my soap box now.

 

[MattG]

ThomasAquinas25:

Listen, the long and short is that through song we praise God. He likes that. Just because a song/hymn appears in a protestant hymnal does make the song bad. However if the theology is bad then it is indeed a bad song. I was protestant and now I am Catholic.

On that note: What is up with some folks trying to be so Protestant? If you don’t like the way things are at Church… don’t try to make it more “real”. People are to quick to say, " I just feel like it should be" … or “I don’t agree with this because” Folks we have the FULLNESS of Truth. If you don’t like being Catholic either go be protestant or suck it up and be Catholic. Guess what … Luther did not like what he saw.

Ok… I am off my soap box now.

Understanding, now, that your reply was not to my post, but to one of the others lightens the tenor of my reply, which follows.
I think you misunderstand my take, but I’ll readdress it in brief:
The song is not in a Protestant Hymal, but is published (probably by Protestants) in individual Scores for use by Protestant Choirs. Why my Catholic Choir has copies may have been edited from my post and if so, because it is unimportant, now. Other than this we seem to agree on singing and this song, but you have chosen to personalize it to which I reply:
Indeed, the song contains heretical text for Catholics.
When Protestants sing it, they do not detect the problems we, Catholics, do, but then, Protestantism is itself heretical, a point, however, not intended for this post and only the original Protestants may have some burden for their actions as will all not following their consciences have. That you have followed your conscience back to Catholic Faith speaks well of you. I am a cradle Catholic and have my own set of burdens.

Thanks for your reply and

 

[MackerelSnapper]

I was bored so I decided to try to see If I could derive the lyrics of “Amazing Grace” from the CCC.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me…

**2024 **Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.”
Comment Perhaps “wretch” is just a poetic metaphor for life w/o sanctifying grace?

I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

**158 **…The grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery.
Comment Got to give points to the lyricist for clarity.

T’was Grace that taught…
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed.

**1432 **The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart. Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: “Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!” God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him.
Comment Think the poetry matches the prose.

Through many dangers, toils and snares…
we have already come.
T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far…
and Grace will lead us home.

**1949 **Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him…
Comment Can’t get to heaven rowing your own boat.

The Lord has promised good to me…
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be…
as long as life endures.

**1821 **We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for “all men to be saved.”
Comment The theological explanation sounds really boring to me.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years…
bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise…
then when we’ve first begun.

**294 **The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us “to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace”, for “the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man’s life is the vision of God: if God’s revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word’s manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God.” The ultimate purpose of creation is that God “who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all”, thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.”
Comment Think the lyrics speak for themselves.

For a Protestant I think the lyricist understands more than a lot of Catholics.

 

[MackerelSnapper]

Detroit Sue:

I love “A Mighty Fortress”…

Yea, it kind of gets the blood pumping. IMHO one of the reasons protestant hymns are in Catholic hymnals is because they’re just easy for a congregation to sing.

otm:

Yeah, we really wouldn’t want such drivel as “on Eagle’s Wings”, I mean, who would want to sing one of the Psalms? Such Drivel! Really! Imagine a Psalm masquerading as liturgical music?!!!

Choirs can do beautiful jobs with this stuff. It’s not drivel. But this stuff is difficult for most Catholic congregations to handle. “Eagle’s Wing’s” is a good example. It ain’t easy. Has three verses. Each verse has different music (…that’s music not the lyrics). By the time you get to the third verse the volume really trails off because the congregation is confused by the music. But the people in the congregation love it. They just sing it sooo badly.

 

[pnewton]

MackerelSnapper:

“Eagle’s Wing’s” is a good example. It ain’t easy. Has three verses. Each verse has different music (…that’s music not the lyrics).

It is also very dischordant. I had to make-up two new chords and use a couple of rare ones as I was learning to play through it. I didn’t use it for mass for the longest because of the difficulty (on my part), until finally too many people requested I play it.

Does any musician know what a G-chord with a C# added is even called?

 

[stellina]

otm:

Yeah, we really wouldn’t want such drivel as “on Eagle’s Wings”, I mean, who would want to sing one of the Psalms? Such Drivel! Really! Imagine a Psalm masquerading as liturgical music?!!!

NOT! :whacky:

I was referring to the music mainly, but in the spirit of your sarcasm I’ll also state that the lyrics do a good job of “dumbing down” the original language of the psalm.

My point was & continues to be that most of what constitutes modern Catholic liturgical music is bland, uninspiring, insipid & often downright silly, as opposed to the spiritually and musically uplifting hymns that were “imported” from the Protestant tradition. De gustibus non disputandum est.

 

[stellina]

MackerelSnapper:

. IMHO one of the reasons protestant hymns are in Catholic hymnals is because they’re just easy for a congregation to sing.

Choirs can do beautiful jobs with this stuff. It’s not drivel. But this stuff is difficult for most Catholic congregations to handle. “Eagle’s Wing’s” is a good example. It ain’t easy. Has three verses. Each verse has different music (…that’s music not the lyrics). By the time you get to the third verse the volume really trails off because the congregation is confused by the music. But the people in the congregation love it. They just sing it sooo badly.

Exactly! While I respectfully disagree with you on “Eagle’s Wings”, you bring up an excellent point. My brother, who is a music teacher and performer, once explained to me that sacred or liturgical music is written in a certain way for a certain purpose (he got into a much better explanation, being the expert that I’m not, but maybe I’ll get him to post one of these days). He has often said that very thing, that the musical structure of certain modern hymns are next to impossible for non-professionals to sing.

I just don’t understand how this musical innovation is supposed to be an improvement - especially for people like me who sing as though they have a gullet full of rocks and can’t do justice to anything.

P.S. Love your screen name - thanks to my old Irish pastor, I know what it means.

 

[Prometheum_x]

pnewton:

Does any musician know what a G-chord with a C# added is even called?

There are several factors that would determine what such a chord would be called, but one possibility would be G (add #11). You could probably add the 9th to the chord as well. Depending on the key, there could also be a seventh, probably major. The full chord would be Gmaj#11: on a keyboard: G, B, D, F#, A, C#, in order from low to high.