Protestant Hymns

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Prometheum_x:
The full chord would be Gmaj#11: on a keyboard: G, B, D, F#, A, C#, in order from low to high.
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And we wonder why people have a hard time singing this:)

On a practicle note, I play it similar to a Gsus, except instead of suspending the 5th string form B to C, I finger up two frets to a C# and back to a B. It works well.

Thanks a bunch, Prometheum. I will mark it accordingly.
 
Why are Protestant hymns allowed? Because they are part of American culture. They are well know to all Americans through movies, TV, etc. In the 60’s or early 70’s, the ecumenical movement was new to the people, and I for one, loved these hymns and liked to sing them, they are easy to sing, and had beautiful words.

However, it is almost 50 years later now, and I see the galloping pace of change removing and destroying an authentic Catholic culture, along with Catholic theology and Catholic liturgy. A few more indults and we will be there. Those who are familiar with cultural deconstruction can see its effects everywhere.

To me, everything seems “dumbed-down” to the least common denominator (no disrespect intended), and we are forgetting our roots. I fear we are heading for an American Rite, or an American Church.
 
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MackerelSnapper:
I was bored so I decided to try to see If I could derive the lyrics of “Amazing Grace” from the CCC.
**2024 **Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.”
Comment Perhaps “wretch” is just a poetic metaphor for life w/o sanctifying grace?

**158 **…The grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery.
Comment Got to give points to the lyricist for clarity.

**1432 **The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart. Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: “Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!” God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him.
Comment Think the poetry matches the prose.

**1949 **Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him…
Comment Can’t get to heaven rowing your own boat.

**1821 **We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for “all men to be saved.”
Comment The theological explanation sounds really boring to me.

**294 **The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us “to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace”, for “the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man’s life is the vision of God: if God’s revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word’s manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God.” The ultimate purpose of creation is that God “who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all”, thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.”
Comment Think the lyrics speak for themselves.

For a Protestant I think the lyricist understands more than a lot of Catholics.
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Keep working on this. Look at the theology again. Perhaps today many won’t catch the meaning.

Look for predestination in the lyrics.
 
You must admit, that this lyric would not have the same impact:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a righteous person like me…

As to predestination, I don’t see it in the hymn. I don’t think many others do either. This is a broadly Protestant / evangelical hymn and, indeed, Calvinists often find it a bit too mawkish to sing (although many do sing it). It is firmly embraced by people who oppose predestination.

Besides, it would be no more predestinarian than Augustine.
 
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DaveBj:
A demented 11th? 😛

DaveBk
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Haha. . . I’ll have to remember that one. It might be an augmented 11th, but I’m not sure if that description properly indicates that the 5th is raised. It isn’t often that I have to give names to chords like these.
 
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pnewton:
And we wonder why people have a hard time singing this:)

On a practicle note, I play it similar to a Gsus, except instead of suspending the 5th string form B to C, I finger up two frets to a C# and back to a B. It works well.

Thanks a bunch, Prometheum. I will mark it accordingly.
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That definitely works well. Another nice example of this sort of chord on the guitar is with a modified C2: (in tab) x32032 and then you can hammer on to x32033. If you do that same pattern with a G (320032 / 320033) and alternate between the C and the G, it creates a nice effect. If you analyze it, you are playing C with an F# – a raised fourth, just like with the G in Eagle’s Wings.
 
T. More:
I was looking through the shorter version of the divine office and noted that recommended prayers included a number of Protestant hymns, such as Amazing Grace and Luther’s Mighty Fortress. Why would a Catholic prayer book include Protestant hymns?
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It may be because the new Catholic Hymns sound as if they were written by a Sociologist in 1968. We don’t need new Theologians --we need new artists!
 
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JohnCarroll:
It may be because the new Catholic Hymns sound as if they were written by a Sociologist in 1968. We don’t need new Theologians --we need new artists!
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AMEN!

I would prefer a good old fashioned Protestant hymn (like Hail Thee Festival Day) to modern Catholic SONGS (like On Eagle’s Wings) any day…
 
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boppysbud:
AMEN!

I would prefer a good old fashioned Protestant hymn (like Hail Thee Festival Day) to modern Catholic SONGS (like On Eagle’s Wings) any day…
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The ones that drive me crazy are the ones constantly talking about us --what we will do , what we are, instead of focusing on the Lord.
 
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JohnCarroll:
The ones that drive me crazy are the ones constantly talking about us --what we will do , what we are, instead of focusing on the Lord.
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Well, some of the older Protestant hymns do focus on the Lord. But they were usually written prior to 1900. 😃 Some of the new hymns lack substance and are too Kumbayaish. Although I’m new at going to Mass and love some of the hymns we do sing there, I do at times miss the good ole Baptist hymns we used to sing. (Though looking through the Missal, I did find that some of the old baptist hymns were there.)
 
Hi All!

I am new to the forum, but have been browsing it for a while now. I have noticed a trend in some of these areas about music in the liturgy. It seems to me that there is a lot of sentiment that anything less than 400 years old just isn’t good enough, and OCP bashing is rampant. Is there something I don’t know about them? Do you feel that God stopped inspiring people to create new songs or took away the ability to create good spiritually uplifting music about 400 years ago? Or is it just that there is nothing you feel fits the bill being published? Personnally, I like a song I can sing with. The book says “make a joyful noise”, not “make only beautiful elaborate perfomance pieces.” I thought the idea was to get people invloved, rather that sit there in silence in the pews. And personnaly, I have never been able to sing along with Gregorian chant. I can’t stand to listen to it for more than 5 minutes. Maybe it part of the A.D.D. style culture I live in. i agree with the earlier posters who said that the religion of the writer doesn’t matter so much as the content. and i think anybody who can find something anti-Catholic about Amazing Grace is really streching it. I mean, come on, you can read bad into just about anything if you try hard enough.
 
The other day I went through my old Baptist Hymnal for about an hour. I didn’t find more than about a dozen that were obviously contrary to Catholic doctrine and about that many borderline. Most hymns were totally orthodox. Even some of the “invitationals” would be appropriate for the Lenten season.

As more protestants come into the Catholic Church (and may there be many more), these type of hymns could be considered more and more to be part of our culture. Just be glad Baptist don’t dance.
 
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TAS2000:
Hi All!

Do you feel that God stopped inspiring people to create new songs or took away the ability to create good spiritually uplifting music about 400 years ago? Or is it just that there is nothing you feel fits the bill being published?
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Much of what is being produced now will not stand the test of time. Catch me in 300 years. I’ll buy you a double-iced latte if I’m wrong.
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TAS2000:
And personnaly, I have never been able to sing along with Gregorian chant.
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I would be surprised if you ever* heard* much live Gregorian chant! If you can read music, you can sing along.
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TAS2000:
I can’t stand to listen to it for more than 5 minutes. Maybe it part of the A.D.D. style culture I live in.
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I agree. But it would be a mistake to blame your distaste on the chant itself. Strech yourself: give yourself another gear. Gregorian chant is as much a meditation technique as “music” – the perfect marriage of word and melody (even those long sequences on one syllable) is deeply meditative. Unfortunately, even where Gregorian chant **is **used, it is often sung in what I call the style of the Red Army Chorus, which rather spoils the broth.
 
Amazing Grace and other songs have been discussed on the EWTN forums. This is just one reply. I felt it described the diffrence in theology best.

Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 08-05-2003: Sadly, it is true they are sung, as are others, all the time.

Amazing Grace is coming out of the Protestant theological tradition and reflects its emphasis on sola gratia, grace alone. In verse one the text says “Amazing grace! How sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me!” While this sounds very humble, and by itself appears inoffensive to Catholic ears, in light of the theological tradition it comes from it suggests the complete depravity of man which was at the root of Luther’s theology. Catholic teaching rejects that. Human nature is wounded, but remains capable of natural good acts, that is, acts of natural virtue, both moral and intellectual, as opposed to supernatural virtue (which IS a gift from God). In keeping with that the Catholic must also reject verse two, which asserts that sanctifying grace is given with belief. “How precious did that grace appear,The hour I first believed.” While a certain natural faith in the credibility of revelation disposes the person to request entrance into Christ’s Church and to desire the “Amazing Grace” of Justification, sanctifying grace (actual justice), the grace of the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity), the supernatural moral virtues (without which a meritorious act, as opposed to an act of the natural man cannot be done) and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (which perfect man) are communicated at Baptism, NOT “the hour I first believed.” Granted a Catholic could read into that the hour of baptism, when supernatural faith is actually communicated, but that is not the intended meaning of the hymn, which reflects the theology that one must only “believe on the Lord Jesus” and one is granted salvation. Implied in the balance of the verses is the doctrine of Blessed Assurance, that “once saved” one’s salvation is assured - a doctrine at serious odds with Scripture, and therefore Catholic teaching, and contrary to the good of man. Since there is an obligation to use only doctrinally sound hymns in the Liturgy, Amazing Grace is at best equivocal and at worse seriously contrary to the Catholic theology of grace.
 
Hi Mercygate!

Thanks for not tearing me to pieces! I have seen some vicious posts on the site, when people have differing opinions. I think it is rather not in keeping with the general idea of a Catholic forum. I do like the free exchange of ideas though, as long as we can keep it civil.
You are correct! I have never heard LIVE chant, but several times I have been exposed to recorded chant, and I just don’t enjoy it. I think music, like any art, is subject to individual taste. I can’t get into Picasso either, and he is widely regarded as a genius by many. I think it just looks weird! So call me limited. As for standing the test of time…only time will tell. I understand that Bethoven was considered a rebel and told his music was garbage by many while he was still alive. (And by the way, I hate coffee and all it’s derivatives. But you can buy me a coke!)

So certainly some people must like the songs being produced today…but you can’t please all of the people all of the time. And just because it’s old, doesn’t make it automatically good, either. I think we just need to judge each song individually on its content. For the last poster who quoted EWTN on Amazing Grace- that description is filled with things about the author’s implied meaning, and no where in the song does it say that grace alone saved him. Maybe that’s what he meant, maybe not. Again, individuals, perhaps even highly educated experts, are reading their own meanings into the words. Stretching. I repeat- anything can be made to say just about anything you want if you try hard enough. You could just as easily say that any hymn that mentions God is bad becasue it doesn’t mention the whole Trinity, so it must be implying that we don’t believe in the Trinity.
 
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TAS2000:
Hi Mercygate!

Thanks for not tearing me to pieces! I have seen some vicious posts on the site, when people have differing opinions. I think it is rather not in keeping with the general idea of a Catholic forum. I do like the free exchange of ideas though, as long as we can keep it civil.
You are correct! I have never heard LIVE chant, but several times I have been exposed to recorded chant, and I just don’t enjoy it. I think music, like any art, is subject to individual taste. I can’t get into Picasso either, and he is widely regarded as a genius by many. I think it just looks weird! So call me limited. As for standing the test of time…only time will tell. I understand that Bethoven was considered a rebel and told his music was garbage by many while he was still alive. (And by the way, I hate coffee and all it’s derivatives. But you can buy me a coke!)

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I agree with you in many ways. Much too much time is waisted over the smallest things at times here. It ought to be possible for there to be Music at Mass that speaks to all sorts of persons. After all unity and uniformity are Not the same thing.

However,( you knew there would be a however) all music is not of equal value. Different forms exist because they are good at communicating different things and these differences are sometimes very subtile. It is too easy to say this of that type of music does not speak to you. After all, that is what an education is for. When you were 10 you may not have understood the Mass --you thought is was boring–but as time went by, you came to understand more of it and it began to move you.

Some forms of music can carry great weight–but some forms are better for dancing than worshiping.
 
I concur. And I fondly recall my younger sister (maybe about 5 years old at the time) asking in church, “How come we never dance?” And my mom replying, “Because we aren’t Baptist.”

Of course there is a “however” or it wouldn’t be any fun at all! So here’s mine: However, all the education in the world might give you an appreciation for the difficulty level, artistic elements, purity of form, etc. but it still may not make you like something. Just ask my Mom. I can remember many a night spent at the dinner table until bedtime because I refused to eat the provided meal. And an unspecified number of decades of education and experience have not changed my mind one bit. I still don’t like creamed cauliflower! YEACH! Nuf said!

I’d still like to know what some people seem to have against OCP though. I have seen several negative references to them, and I was always under the perhaps uninformed impression that they were a good source for Catholic music. After all, it says Catholic right in the name, so it must be good, right? :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, is there something I don’t know that I should? Or is it just certain people’s preferences?
 
Good luck on getting my little brown Cokesburry Hymnal from me. Great hymnal, I highly recommend that anyone who happens to come across one to snatch it up. Everything may not be sound, but who sings every hymn in a book anyways?
 
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