protestant idols?

[andrewstx]

Beware of generalizing about Protestants.

Most of the Protestants I know are 'mainline' - that is, they belong to the more established denominations like Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, UCC, etc. These are not fundamentalists. They focus considerable attention on the Bible, but they are certainly less literalistic than evangelicals or than many Catholics. They would not, for example, believe in Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, and the Tower of Babel as autentic history. They would have trouble with many of the miracles attributed to Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and various others. Was Joshua really able to have the sun stand still so that he could slaughter more of the enemy? No way. They also have trouble with certain things in the New Testament - e. g., Paul telling slaves to obey their masters or women to keep silent in the church. 

 The problem is with literalists and dogmatists, whether of the Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish etc  There are plenty of these - yes, many here on CAF. They dominate evangelical Protestantism. They are ready to believe the unbelievable. 

  Fine. Freedom of religion and all that. I do become upset, however, when Christians are sure that their particular version of Christianity is the one and only valid one. And that goes for Catholics as well as Protestants.

  Most Protestants are much less into sacraments and sacramentals. Except for an Episcopal or Lutheran Church here and there. they never have a statue of a saint, taking seriously their version of the commandment (in the Ten) against images. In this respect Catholics are more like Hindus with all their statues and Protestants tend to be more like Jews or Muslims. 

  In mainline Protestant Bible students participants have enormous freedom. Varying interpretations of perplexing passages may be expressed. There is no sense that there is but one way to believe and that is our way!

 Frankly, I don't give a hoot. The truth of any religion is - like some trees - the fruit it bears. If it produces kind, compassionate, tolerant people with generally healthy minds - God bless 'em. If it produces bigoted and intolerant people either those folks are not practicing their faith correctly or that faith is distorted.  

 Let us strive together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. God bless those of every creed, color, culture and country. Let's cast off the arrogant opinion that our church alone has the full truth and all the rest are inferior when it comes to matters of belief.

I agree to an extent, but mainline Protestant churches are dying and rapidly becomeing irrellevent. They are quickly being replaced with fundamental, generic “just Christian” churches, and so called “non-denominational” denominations.

Are not the members of these denominations just teaching a bare minimum Christianity, and ignoring vital truths at the expense of getting along by ignoring the differences?

I think we all have to stand for more than the bare minimum.

The local “think and belive for yourself” Episcopal chruch survives only on the strengh of a huge endowment, but is tiny, aging, and cannot even pay for their own rector.

 

[Sufjon]

When I was about five years to about eleven years old, I had a small statue of a youthful Jesus by my bed. I always had to have that statue facing me near my bed. I knew it was just a statue, but it told me Jesus is with me even when I’m sleeping. …Anyway, your post reminded me.

Beautiful post PatrickSanDiego! That is exactly what statues and images do. They give us something to wrap our heads around in regards to that which is formless. These have been used by faith traditions throughout the ages and serve a wonderful purpose. Personally, I hope you still have that statue!

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[stewstew03]

If, by idolatry, protestants mean ‘the veneration of some tangible object’ then many protestants are guilty of the same. I know many protestants who go out each December, cut down the most impeccable tree they can find (or purchase one), place it in a prominent position in their homes, and decorate it with “silver” and “gold.” All this takes place during a time when they should be celebrating the birth of Christ…

Of course, we practice this tradition in my home as well - but if veneration is the moral equivalent of idolatry, then all protestants who decorate their Christmas trees each year are guilty of the same.

:christmastree1:

 

[sallybutler]

I think it is only idolatry when Catholics do it, not when non-Catholics do it

 

[Roy5]

In response to andrewstx, I don’t know about the whole nation, and it is true that the non-denominational churches are growing. A couple quick points.

1. The mainline Protestant churches in this area are full for former Catholics. One local Methodist minister indicates that 1/3 of his new members every year come from Catholicism. A local Congregational Church claims that over 70% of its membership is ex-Catholic.

2. The non-denominational and pentecostal churches also attract many Catholics in this region.

3. The Catholic population is large - a majority as far as background is concerned - many of Italian, French-Canadian, Irish, Polish, Slovak, German etc heritage. The attendance at Mass in town over the past 50 years or so has dwindled from roughly 75% to 25%. Cafeteria Catholics and cultural Catholics would appear to be the majority, probably the large majority. Many parochial schools that used to be numerous in this area

have closed.

 4. Roughly 30 million Americans are ex-Catholic. The Catholic population remains about the same (70 million), however, because of the huge Latino influx into the nation. Several old churches in this area have become basically Latino parishes - an issue in some of them.  

 5. Why are non-denominational, evangelical Protestant churches growing? Here are a few thoughts.

    a. The music. The first half-hour can resemble a rock concert in many of these churches.

    b. The preaching. Many of the ministers are charismatic, compelling. People are swayed as much by the forcefulness of the rhetoric as by the message itself. 

   c. The constituents are apt to be young families, who attract other young families.

   d. These churches and their pastors are attune to modern means of communication and do extension and creative evangelism. e. g., warm visitor welcome, visitor follow-up, radio and TV, vibrant community programs for youth and children, special needs ministries, bus ministries, etc.

   e. People are hungry for a strong message, something to hold on to. Personally, I am quite unsympathetic to Protestant fundamentalism, and especially the prosperity gospel that some espouse, but these preachers can be very affective with those with scant theological background who are convinced by powerful preaching, whatever its content.   

   f. The Mass in many churches can seem staid, repetitious, and unexciting by comparison - handed down, as it were, from a hierarchy. Independent pastors have considerable freedom to try different things, make worship more person, more exciting. 

 God bless everybody - no exceptions.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .The local “think and belive for yourself” Episcopal chruch survives only on the strengh of a huge endowment, but is tiny, aging, and cannot even pay for their own rector.

andrewstx,

This type of sweeping statement about the Episcopal Church is false. Our Parish is very conservative. The Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. There are many such Parishes.

We have young families entering our Parish; and we have plenty of funds to pay our Rector, plus two assisting.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I hope you don’t mind my response. In general, I believe you have a good assessment, except I wouldn’t throw the Anglicans under the bus. Suffice it to say that there was plenty of blame to go around - Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinists, all of us.

Hi Jon,

Throwing Anglicans “under the bus” seems to be a favorite pass time. So far, we are surviving it. :stretcher:

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

In response to andrewstx, I don’t know about the whole nation, and it is true that the non-denominational churches are growing. A couple quick points.

1. The mainline Protestant churches in this area are full for former Catholics. One local Methodist minister indicates that 1/3 of his new members every year come from Catholicism. A local Congregational Church claims that over 70% of its membership is ex-Catholic.

2. The non-denominational and pentecostal churches also attract many Catholics in this region.

3. The Catholic population is large - a majority as far as background is concerned - many of Italian, French-Canadian, Irish, Polish, Slovak, German etc heritage. The attendance at Mass in town over the past 50 years or so has dwindled from roughly 75% to 25%. Cafeteria Catholics and cultural Catholics would appear to be the majority, probably the large majority. Many parochial schools that used to be numerous in this area

have closed.

 4. Roughly 30 million Americans are ex-Catholic. The Catholic population remains about the same (70 million), however, because of the huge Latino influx into the nation. Several old churches in this area have become basically Latino parishes - an issue in some of them.  

 5. Why are non-denominational, evangelical Protestant churches growing? Here are a few thoughts.

    a. The music. The first half-hour can resemble a rock concert in many of these churches.

    b. The preaching. Many of the ministers are charismatic, compelling. People are swayed as much by the forcefulness of the rhetoric as by the message itself. 

   c. The constituents are apt to be young families, who attract other young families.

   d. These churches and their pastors are attune to modern means of communication and do extension and creative evangelism. e. g., warm visitor welcome, visitor follow-up, radio and TV, vibrant community programs for youth and children, special needs ministries, bus ministries, etc.

   e. People are hungry for a strong message, something to hold on to. Personally, I am quite unsympathetic to Protestant fundamentalism, and especially the prosperity gospel that some espouse, but these preachers can be very affective with those with scant theological background who are convinced by powerful preaching, whatever its content.   

   f. The Mass in many churches can seem staid, repetitious, and unexciting by comparison - handed down, as it were, from a hierarchy. Independent pastors have considerable freedom to try different things, make worship more person, more exciting. 

 God bless everybody - no exceptions.

It’s the accountability issue—accountability in regards to truthfully and faithfully proclaiming the Gospel seems to be dying out.

Anna

 

[andrewstx]

In response to andrewstx, I don’t know about the whole nation, and it is true that the non-denominational churches are growing. A couple quick points.

1. The mainline Protestant churches in this area are full for former Catholics. One local Methodist minister indicates that 1/3 of his new members every year come from Catholicism. A local Congregational Church claims that over 70% of its membership is ex-Catholic.

2. The non-denominational and pentecostal churches also attract many Catholics in this region.

3. The Catholic population is large - a majority as far as background is concerned - many of Italian, French-Canadian, Irish, Polish, Slovak, German etc heritage. The attendance at Mass in town over the past 50 years or so has dwindled from roughly 75% to 25%. Cafeteria Catholics and cultural Catholics would appear to be the majority, probably the large majority. Many parochial schools that used to be numerous in this area

have closed.

 4. Roughly 30 million Americans are ex-Catholic. The Catholic population remains about the same (70 million), however, because of the huge Latino influx into the nation. Several old churches in this area have become basically Latino parishes - an issue in some of them.  

 5. Why are non-denominational, evangelical Protestant churches growing? Here are a few thoughts.

    a. The music. The first half-hour can resemble a rock concert in many of these churches.

    b. The preaching. Many of the ministers are charismatic, compelling. People are swayed as much by the forcefulness of the rhetoric as by the message itself. 

   c. The constituents are apt to be young families, who attract other young families.

   d. These churches and their pastors are attune to modern means of communication and do extension and creative evangelism. e. g., warm visitor welcome, visitor follow-up, radio and TV, vibrant community programs for youth and children, special needs ministries, bus ministries, etc.

   e. People are hungry for a strong message, something to hold on to. Personally, I am quite unsympathetic to Protestant fundamentalism, and especially the prosperity gospel that some espouse, but these preachers can be very affective with those with scant theological background who are convinced by powerful preaching, whatever its content.   

   f. The Mass in many churches can seem staid, repetitious, and unexciting by comparison - handed down, as it were, from a hierarchy. Independent pastors have considerable freedom to try different things, make worship more person, more exciting. 

 God bless everybody - no exceptions.

I really don’t believe there is such a thing as “non-denominational”, all the congregations going by the name are Baptist or Pentecostal or a combination thereof. Baptist and Pentecostal are denominations, end of story.

In this general area there are a large number of congregations that have moved to the suburbs, changed their names, and kept the bapticostal doctrine. They are still Baptist/Pentecostal with the names changed. What would happen if I rang up one of those “non-denominational” churches asking for my two month old daughter to be baptised there by affusion? The baptist would come out quickly. And they would outright refuse or offer to dedicate her.

I was born and raised and converted from the “un-denominational” church of Christ denomination. They call themseves “Christian” only and deny that others are Christian. I think the “we are the only Christians, becuase we use no other name” are following the same premise to an extent.

They pretty much dislike Catholics and Orthodox, we don’t have rock concerts in church and don’tneed them. Personally I think that music is out of place in a church. and we can hear the same music in a tavern or a concert.

We have timeless music in our churches, worship that engages all the senses, and good preaching minus the shouting I heard growing up.

I wish all well as fellow Christians, but there are differences.

 

[christosdavid]

the model of many Christian churches, is in fact congregational. This means whilst they may have significant agreement with other churches they are not under any authority or compulsion from other structural denominational figures or assemblies.

In essence, they cannot be another denomination, just as a house church isn’t. There is no denomination, only a leading theology…

 

[andrewstx]

andrewstx,

This type of sweeping statement about the Episcopal Church is false. Our Parish is very conservative. The Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. There are many such Parishes.

We have young families entering our Parish; and we have plenty of funds to pay our Rector, plus two assisting.

Peace,
Anna

I think that is wonderfull Anna.

Honestly I don’t get out much since I can’t drive since the stroke. What I see in the diocese of northwest Texas is stagnation and loss of members. The mission in the small town I live in is closed, as are most of the small town missions. The tiny mission I was confirmed in is closed, years ago.

Most growth is in Christ Church a rapidly growing schismatic denomination. The parish I was in was once large and healthy, now it has shrunk dramatically. The bishop refuses to allow a new rector, and now they only have a “priest in charge”.

I think a lot of the problem is no-one wants to come here and serve. This has got to be the uglyist place on earth.

I never meant to attack your chruch. as you probably can tell it was dear to me at one time, it is beautifull with stained glass, statues, and all.

I just hope it can survive another generation, and that looks doubtfull.

 

[christosdavid]

So today I was at the book store, and a family christian store, I had noticed a large amount of Jesus paraphernalia in the form of fashion. I never really new what this was until I had a previous relationship with a fundamentalist girlfriend a couple years back.
After reading a lot of belligerent arguments online about " Catholic idol worship"
( in quotations ) ,and having them with my EX, GF.
I had noticed that most of the Christians wearing these shirts, hoodies, hats and bracelets are non-denominational or protestant in general
Going to mass on Sundays I have never seen anyone wearing such T-shirts that say
" get out of hell, free card " or "stop drop and roll , won’t save you in hell "
This post wasn’t made to start an " Idol Debate " as I really don’t care, but that being said,
if the same accusations are made towards myself as a Catholic, wouldn’t that be the
pot calling the kettle black if the protestant christian is the same person wearing the Jesus fashionable clothes. Seems like a successful way to make money if one wants to start a fashion business though. ( not what I would do )

Just throwing that out there, to everyone. …

the difference as I see it is the theology of veneration. T-shirts aren’t venerated, they are used as a signboard to proclaim the message of salvation…

 

[stewstew03]

the difference as I see it is the theology of veneration. T-shirts aren’t venerated, they are used as a signboard to proclaim the message of salvation…

But my guess is that you would be quite offended if someone burned a t-shirt that had the image of Christ printed on it, correct? How about if someone burns a wooden cross, or puts it in a jar of urine?

 

[Roy5]

Yes, it’s true. Many of these non-denominational churches are basically Baptist or Pentecostal. Often they take such names as Family Life Church or Victory Christian Church, etc. Almost without exception they will not - for example - baptize and infant.

  On the other hand, some have no close tie to a denomination as such. Maybe they 'fellowship' with two or three other independent churches in the area - well, not close enough sometimes to be competitive. Their clergy attended Bible institutes that attract fundamentalist students from a range of churches. 

  The best theological schools for Protestant clergy, of course, are the Harvards and Yales, the Dukes and SMUs and Princetons, etc. These generally serve mainline Protestant denominations where the students already have graduated from a four-year college before going to seminary - then another three years (or more) for a master's in theology. 

   This past weekend I was visiting kinfolk up in New Hampshire. The Catholic Church in that village, which had served 3-4 area villages, has closed. Shocking news. Attendance slippage plus shortage of clergy combined to close it. The mainline Protestants are having similar problems. It's as though there is some sort of rebellion against the older, historic churches, as people either opt out of organized religion entirely or go to one of those 'non-denominational' churches. Sad state of affairs.

  As for Protestant idols, often those evangelical churches are built around a founding pastor whose word is law in the parish. He usually is charismatic, industrious, and creative, which helps explain why these congregations grow. In this area a couple of these pastors were formerly Catholic.  

  The Church of Christ (not to be confused with the United Church of Christ) is an insular dogmatic denomination which, like Catholicism, preaches there is but one true church and they are part of it. Some CC preachers compare their church to Noah's ark - get on board of you will 'miss the boat' and drown. Each church is independent, and they askew denominationalism, though, in essence, they are one.

 Most mainline Protestant churches (like the UCC, whose roots are in early New England Puritanism) now are open when it comes to doctrine, tolerant of independent thinking, and members range all the way from fervent Bible-believers to those who could aptly be described as Unitarians. For the latter, they often admire Christ but - like Jefferson - dismiss many of his miracles etc as pious forklore rather than fact.

 

[christosdavid]

But my guess is that you would be quite offended if someone burned a t-shirt that had the image of Christ printed on it, correct? How about if someone burns a wooden cross, or puts it in a jar of urine?

The servant is not greater than the Master, Jesus was hung on a cross, spat on, had his beard pulled out, flayed by the Romans and was mocked with a crown of thorns.

If the world hates you, remember, they hated me first…

 

[stewstew03]

The servant is not greater than the Master, Jesus was hung on a cross, spat on, had his beard pulled out, flayed by the Romans and was mocked with a crown of thorns.

If the world hates you, remember, they hated me first…

As Catholics, we understand what it’s like to be hated by the world. The beauty of Protestantism is that it can and will change with the times (e.g., women ministers, homosexual marriage, abortion, etc.).

 

[christosdavid]

As Catholics, we understand what it’s like to be hated by the world. The beauty of Protestantism is that it can and will change with the times (e.g., women ministers, homosexual marriage, abortion, etc.).

come on, thats not very nice, the catholic church can change with the times just as much…

What about Vatican II? modernising the theology of the church to include freedom of religion? protestants can be saved?? college of bishops under the supreme pontiff???

 

[stewstew03]

come on, thats not very nice, the catholic church can change with the times just as much…

What about Vatican II? modernising the theology of the church to include freedom of religion? protestants can be saved?? college of bishops under the supreme pontiff???

We are getting off topic, but it’s worth mentioning that the Church has never (and will never) change orthodox doctrine in a manner inconsistent with Scripture/Tradition.

Protestants are not bound by such constraints; and if they are, they can simply form a new “church.” If you’d like to discuss this further, I suggest you start a new thread.

Getting back to the point of this thread, if you would be offended by the burning of a t-shirt with the image of Christ on it, or the burning of a wooden cross, or submersing the cross in human waste, then you venerate an object, and are therefore guilty, by your own definition, of the sin of idolatry.

 

[christosdavid]

We are getting off topic, but it’s worth mentioning that the Church has never (and will never) change orthodox doctrine in a manner inconsistent with Scripture/Tradition.

Protestants are not bound by such constraints; and if they are, they can simply form a new “church.” If you’d like to discuss this further, I suggest you start a new thread.

Getting back to the point of this thread, if you would be offended by the burning of a t-shirt with the image of Christ on it, or the burning of a wooden cross, or submersing the cross in human waste, then you venerate an object, and are therefore guilty, by your own definition, of the sin of idolatry.

I would say that veneration has a bit more significance. Protestants dont usually kiss T-shirts the way Catholics do the “foot of the cross”.

I agree, i would not be happy, but more out of disappointment, hence the reminder that these types of things did in fact happen to our Lord and we believers (rather than heretics who hide within the Protestant religions) also believe the faith doesn’t change and your examples of Protestant changes are extreme examples… just like when “bishops” say they no longer believe in the resurrection or suchlike. These men (and or women) are not people of faith, are they?

 

[stewstew03]

I would say that veneration has a bit more significance. Protestants dont usually kiss T-shirts the way Catholics do the “foot of the cross”.

I agree, i would not be happy, but more out of disappointment, hence the reminder that these types of things did in fact happen to our Lord and we believers (rather than heretics who hide within the Protestant religions) also believe the faith doesn’t change and your examples of Protestant changes are extreme examples… just like when “bishops” say they no longer believe in the resurrection or suchlike. These men (and or women) are not people of faith, are they?

What if someone burns a King James Bible - surely you would be more than disappointed, no?