Protestant interpretations...

[JohnnyBeth]

JB, if I did the two greatest commandants the verses you listed above wouldn’t be an issue! Think about it, why would I do immoral things if I loved the Lord with all my heart mind and soul? Or treat anyone like a sexual object if I loved them correctly?

• Michael

You are missing the point; who can love God with all their heart mind and soul and love their neighbor as themselves? Only those who what? Believe. Is this not what Jesus said through the apostle John; that the will of the Father is that everyone beholds or looks upon the Son and believes for eternal life? Without the very first will; you can’t do the commands.

 

[Ginger2]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Ed I just am speechless with that one! … But to go by … the Early Fathers of the Church! Holy Smokes!

And what did the Early Church Fathers say:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’**eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)

“As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine.” Jerome(340-420) - Jerome’s preface to the books of Solomon."
**

Ginger

 

[teak421]

You are missing the point; who can love God with all their heart mind and soul and love their neighbor as themselves? Only those who what? Believe. Is this not what Jesus said through the apostle John; that the will of the Father is that everyone beholds or looks upon the Son and believes for eternal life? Without the very first will; you can’t do the commands.

I didn’t miss the point at all… I do not understand why you brought it up. How about this, It would be impossible to do the two greatest commandments if I first didn’t believe. Will that work?

Also, Christ said this at John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

I think its important to do the two greatest commandments, don’t ya think? Why, because we’re followers of the Lord and he said to do them.

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I will not adhere to faith alone? What do you mean? How clear can I get? I’ve taken offense that even the work of faith on my part can not save, but ONLY grace. How more clear can I get?

Read the section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Grace and Justification. Its Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2.

Here’s a couple of quotes… (it does a much better job at explaining than I do!)

*1992 Justification ***has been merited for ****us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith.

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and ***undeserved help that God gives ***us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

Have a nice weekend!

• Michael

Unfortunately the quotes above do not add up to scripture. “merited (Properly deserved) for us”; what is that? Justification conferred upon baptism (water). what is that? grace is help from God. what is that? grace is unmerited (undeserved) favor from God, not some partial help.

Have a good weekend as well and I apologize if I offended you; not my intention to do so.

JB

 

[teak421]

’eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).
Ginger

Ginger, I wouldn’t have used Irenaeus… For example, in that same tract, Book I, Chapter 3. Take some time to read it… The people he is fighting against are using Scripture to prove an heretical viewpoint. Yet, he as a Bishop of the Catholic Church tells them… Sorry, Charley, you are wrong! He (the Church) was the authority to determine that a teaching was wrong… NOT Scripture. Also, I’m sure glad the Church got it right in 325 (we have a great Creed) or we would all be JW’s!

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

And what did the Early Church Fathers say:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’**eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)

“As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine.” Jerome(340-420) - Jerome’s preface to the books of Solomon."
**

Ginger

Very good; you are good with those church fathers. I am much less informed on them although the earliest church fathers would be the apostles and early disciples written in the pages of scripture and they were actually there with Christ or with those that hung out with Jesus.

 

[teak421]

Unfortunately the quotes above do not add up to scripture. “merited (Properly deserved) for us”; what is that? Justification conferred upon baptism (water). what is that? grace is help from God. what is that? grace is unmerited (undeserved) favor from God, not some partial help.

Have a good weekend as well and I apologize if I offended you; not my intention to do so.

JB

Oh my goodness… I have no idea what you are talking about. The quotes from the catechism can not be more straight-forward. Cya!

• Michael

 

[teak421]

Unfortunately the quotes above do not add up to scripture. “merited (Properly deserved) for us”; what is that? Justification conferred upon baptism (water). what is that? grace is help from God. what is that? grace is unmerited (undeserved) favor from God, not some partial help.

Have a good weekend as well and I apologize if I offended you; not my intention to do so.

JB

How do you believe we are saved?

• Michael

 

[Luke65]

And what did the Early Church Fathers say:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’**eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)
**

All of those quotes are true. The Bible tells us everything we need to know in order to be saved. Unfortunately, Protestants do not believe that Christ’s Church that He founded on Peter the Rock is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. And they don’t obey His Church as He commanded.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

 

[Luke65]

“No salvation outside the Church” (Lateran IV)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal;** but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her**; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

Oops, Vatican II says there are exceptions to this absolute ex-cathedral doctrine

First absolutely no salvation outside membership in RC, then some outside RC might be saved.

There’s no contradiction. If you are not aboard the Ark of Salvation - the Catholic Church - when our Lord Jesus declares you dead, then you will spend your eternity in Hell.

 

[Ginger2]

All of those quotes are true. The Bible tells us everything we need to know in order to be saved. Unfortunately, Protestants do not believe that Christ’s Church that He founded on Peter the Rock is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”. And they don’t obey His Church as He commanded.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

I do believe that is a mistranslation…must be a Catholic Bible.

he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.’ YLT

I can’t find my Concordance (I have a good one) and the Online KJV is not so dependable, however, the KJV online say the words translated “believe” and not believe" mean just what they do in English.

It does not say “obey”. You are obviously forcing an interpretation to support your view. :tsktsk:

 

[teak421]

And what did the Early Church Fathers say:

’Not all that the Lord did was written down, but only what was deemed sufficient, either from the point of view of morals, or from the point of view of dogmas.’ Cyril of Alexandria (died A.D. 444) (Comm. John 12).

’**eing most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit.’ Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-ca. A.D. 202) (Against Heresies 2,28:2).

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).

’If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or to take away from the written word.’ Tertullian of Carthage (Against Hermogenes 22)

“As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine.” Jerome(340-420) - Jerome’s preface to the books of Solomon."
**

Ginger

I wouldn’t have used Tertullian either… Here’s what he said just ONE paragraph down:

CHAPTER 23. – HERMOGENES PURSUED TO ANOTHER PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE. THE ABSURDITY OF HIS INTERPRETATION EXPOSED.

Its unwise to pull quotes out that adhere to your doctrine… Just like it would be wrong to do it with Biblical passages. Look at the text in its entirety. Or, don’t quote them!

Also, have you read Tertullian tract on Baptism? CHAPTER 12 Of the necessity of baptism to salvation.

• Michael

 

[Luke65]

I do believe that is a mistranslation…must be a Catholic Bible.

he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.’ YLT

I can’t find my Concordance (I have a good one) and the Online KJV is not so dependable, however, the KJV online say the words translated “believe” and not believe" mean just what they do in English.

It does not say “obey”. You are obviously forcing an interpretation to support your view. :tsktsk:

It says “obey”. That’s the NASB - a Protestant Bible.

And from NIV:

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15:20
Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

Romans 6:17
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

 

[Luke65]

And one more:

“Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.” (Romans 1:5)

Catholics talk about obedience. Protestants talk about faith. That is the difference between meat-eaters and milk-drinkers! Grow up!

 

[Ginger2]

It says “obey”. That’s the NASB - a Protestant Bible.

And from NIV:

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15:20
Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

Romans 6:17
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

I didn’t say the Bible doesn’t say we should obey God.

I said the verse you quoted does not say “obey”

The new verses you added to justify your error are not talking specifically about how one is saved, but rather how one saved reacts to his salvation.

James 2:18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Ginger

 

[Luke65]

I didn’t say the Bible doesn’t say we should obey God.

I said the verse you quoted does not say “obey”

The new verses you added to justify your error are not talking specifically about how one is saved, but rather how one saved reacts to his salvation.

James 2:18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Ginger

What “error” did I make? Quoting the NASB? You said I quoted a Catholic Bible. I proved you were wrong. But instead of admitting that you were in error, you continue to say that I am in error. Grow up!

 

[Ginger2]

I wouldn’t have used Tertullian either… Here’s what he said just ONE paragraph down:

CHAPTER 23. – HERMOGENES PURSUED TO ANOTHER PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE. THE ABSURDITY OF HIS INTERPRETATION EXPOSED.

Its unwise to pull quotes out that adhere to your doctrine… Just like it would be wrong to do it with Biblical passages. Look at the text in its entirety. Or, don’t quote them!

• Michael

Thank you for pointing out that Tertullian agrees with me. That is almost word for word what I said in an earlier post in either this thread or the other I am involved in.

Ginger

 

[teak421]

Thank you for pointing out that Tertullian agrees with me. That is almost word for word what I said in an earlier post in either this thread or the other I am involved in.

Ginger

Then, Ginger the world has stopped! We agree! We agree that there is an authority (The Church) to say if a doctrine is right or wrong. That’s exactly what Tert did! Excellent!

• Michael

 

[Ginger2]

What “error” did I make? Quoting the NASB? You said I quoted a Catholic Bible. I proved you were wrong. But instead of admitting that you were in error, you continue to say that I am in error. Grow up!

I was being sarcastic. Did you not see the icon??

It is irrelevant to me whether a Catholic or a Protestant mistranslates the Scriptures - either way it is wrong.

That is the point of my post.

I did not say you misquoted that particular version. I said the verse you quoted does not say “obey”. Your quote was not accurate to the original text, that is your error, not mine.

Since that is the only version I know of that says “obey” I did assume you chose it intentionally. Was I wrong?

Ginger

 

[teak421]

And what did the Early Church Fathers say:

’[T]he tokens of truth are more exact as drawn from Scripture, than from other sources.’ Athanasius, the great Patriarch of Alexandria (Nicene Definition 32).
Ginger

Ginger, take a look at what Athanasius said:

For this Synod of Nicaea is in truth a proscription of every heresy. It also upsets those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and call Him a Creature. For the Fathers, after speaking of the faith in the Son, straightway added, ‘And we believe in the Holy Ghost,’ in order that by confessing perfectly and fully the faith in the Holy Trinity they might make known the exact form of the Faith of Christ, and the teaching of the Catholic Church. For it is made clear both among you and among all, and no Christian can have a doubtful mind on the point, that our faith is not in the Creature, but in one God, Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible: and in one Lord Jesus Christ His Only-begotten Son, and in one Holy Ghost; one God. known in the holy and perfect Trinity, baptized into which, and in it united to the Deity, we believe that we have also inherited the kingdom of the heavens, in Christ Jesus our Lord, through whom to the Father be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

This was the summary of Ad Afros Epistola Synodica (don’t ask me to translate!) … talking about the importance of the Creed. You will notice he talks about the Fathers / teachings of the Catholic Church. Of course, Scripture is very important (he makes that point very clear), but we have to see that tradition also played a role in the development of Catholic (Christian) doctrine. The trinity, a doctrine we both agree on, was thankfully settled. Why do you accept the authority of the Catholic Church then, but not now?

• Michael