Protestant interpretations...

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I was told in the past Peter went to Rome in 45 A.D. The numbers didn’t add up. Then I was told Eusebius writes Peter went to Rome in 42 A.D.

Crucified upside down in 67 minus 25 year ?pontification? in Rome equals 42 A.D. At first glance this looks correct, but when you run it against the timeline, the numbers still don’t add up.

Seriously, when you can’t come up with any sort of valid timeline of events, how can you expect me to to trust your version of history? It appears as tho Eusebius chose the year 42 to validate the RC claim.

So, can you please provide a timeline for me to verify your claims? You choose the timeline that suits your belief. I will then check it against itself and the limited info in Scriptures to see if holds up.

Before you criticize me for wanting to verify these claims, remember, not only does the Bible say we should not believe everything we hear but test everything for truth,

ALSO, I have been given 3 timelines in the past - all of which failed mathematically - and I am still willing to consider any timeline you offer. Generally two tries is enough inconsistency for me to determine all claims are simply attempts to make the facts fit the claims, when it should be the other way around. I feel I am being more than fair in considering your point of view.

Ginger
 
Are you referring to the Catholic Church? 😛
Actually if you bother to correctly read the post the point I am getting at is very clear. But that is of courser IF you actually bother to properly read my post.🙂 Which would probably be a bit too much to ask.
 
Actually if you bother to correctly read the post the point I am getting at is very clear. But that is of courser IF you actually bother to properly read my post.🙂
I properly read it and r4ealized that what you accuse others of is exactly the same thing you yourself do. I added a 😛 at the end so you would know I did not misunderstand, but was making a point.

Ginger
 
I don’t trust people to be infallible, that’s why I depend heavily on the written word and guidance from the Holy Spirit.
How do you know it is indeed the Holy Spirit guiding you. The devil masquerades as teh angel of light.
I was raised Catholic.
So what made you leave? And I mean an honest answer. Not something you tell yourself so that you can justify your decision to leave.

It would be good to sit down and ponder in your heart why you really left.
 
I properly read it and r4ealized that what you accuse others of is exactly the same thing you yourself do. I added a 😛 at the end so you would know I did not misunderstand, but was making a point.

Ginger
Well then, below are GottaGo’s post and my reply (to which you inturn replied). Please point out where I maybe be “doing exactly the same thing I accuse others of doing”
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benedictus2:
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GottaGo12345678:
even to a secular pagans. There is that attraction to “a pious-royalty-looking church with many years of tradition” and being a part of that mythical adventure of a lifetime.
And to so called Christians devoid of any real sense of the mystical, there is this inclination towards a modernity that borders on the delusional, which really all stems from that adherence to Adams sin of pride by demanding that they and they alone can interpret scripture. Such arrogance.
 
How do you know it is indeed the Holy Spirit guiding you. The devil masquerades as the angel of light.
The short answer is two things:
  1. I have committed to obey God, even when I don’t get the answer I want - even when obeying means I have to give up something I don’t want to give up - even when it means I have to eat humble pie. It is not very easy.
  2. I follow the guidelines laid out in Scripture to protect us from deception.
The long answer I will not share, as no doubt people will sin by crediting the gifts of God to demons, much the same way atheists credit them to dumb luck or coincidence. 😦

Ginger
 
**
Jn. 6:63**
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; *the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. *

Because I tell you the truth; you do not believe me?
extract of CA tract on eucharist …“In John 6:63 “flesh” does not refer to Christ’s own flesh—the context makes this clear—but to mankind’s inclination to think on a natural, human level. “The words I have spoken to you are spirit” does not mean “What I have just said is symbolic.” The word “spirit” is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).”
You are incorrect in your personal assessment,which I will demonstrate from Scripture; yet you will still not believe.
“For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would” (Gal. 5:17).
Hi GottaGo,
not sure if you got to see my response,(copied above) it kind of got lost in all the other posts.
I am interested in hearing your response, though I know it is off topic.
 
Jesus called Himself a servant, but as you Catholics are spurious at doing; look at the names and the meaning of these names, then you will see better.
First, of all, I mentioned steward because by definition a steward is a person who manages another’s property or financial affairs. A steward does not own those properties, but he acts for the King.
Also, you might start at verse 20; that is where the description of the Son of God begins.

20 "Then it will come about in that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,
Eliakim = “God raises” or “God sets up”

“And I tell you, you are Peter…”
Matthew 16:18
21 And I will clothe him with your tunic
And tie your sash securely about him.
I will entrust him with your authority,
And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
“I am the good shepherd.”
John 10:11

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”
John 211:15-17
22 "Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:19
23 "I will drive him like a peg in a firm place,
"…and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. "
Matthew 16:18
And he will become a throne of glory to his father’s house.
Jesus to be a throne?

I have not read of anything in the Bible that says Jesus will be the throne of God, but I have read many times that Jesus sits on His Throne as King.

The “throne” is the symbol of power of the kingdom. The prime minister acts in the name of the king; that is, the prime minister is the steward of the kingdom for the king: what the king orders, the prime minister sees to it that it is done. The prime minister thus can be said to be the “throne” because he makes the power in the kingdom move, but the king is still over him, because the king orders the prime minister.
 
I have considered this verse too, as one example.

Please compare this same story in Mark 15:46 in the Peshitta.
Then why didn’t you say so? You said
“Cephas” (ke’pha) is always used to translate the Greek word “lithos” which means a little stone and usually for “petros”, with the exception of Mat 16, of course.
which is misleading.
Which one is the correct translation? Why do you think so?
I still think the original texts are still the best, and these most probably were Greek. From what I understand, most scholars think that the Peshitta was transliterated from the Greek texts.

However, the reason why I posted what I gleaned from the Peshitta is that you keep saying that Cephas can never be “petra” even in the Peshitta.
 
…what I gleaned from the Peshitta is that you keep saying that Cephas can never be “petra” even in the Peshitta.
No, my point is the Peshitta is not an accurate translation.

I agree with you the Greek is the best choice. It is the divinely inspired text.

However, I have found the Peshitta useful at times.

Do you understand why I asked you to compare the parallel text in Mark? The Peshitta translates according to my assertion while Matthew translates it according to yours.

This inconsistency demonstrates my reluctance to depend on the Peshitta or use it in preference to the Greek.
 
The short answer is two things:
  1. I have committed to obey God, even when I don’t get the answer I want - even when obeying means I have to give up something I don’t want to give up - even when it means I have to eat humble pie. It is not very easy.
That is very commendable. God will not leave you alone to be led astray if you commit to Him. He will always bring you back. And humility is truly the key.

I would say this though. Do not put road blocks to truth just because you
feel the the "Church’ has failed you.

Here is a helpful rule by St Ignatius on how to differentiate between the prompting of the Holy Spirit and the evil spirit.

therealpresence.org/archives/Christian_Spirituality/Christian_Spirituality_030.htm
  1. I follow the guidelines laid out in Scripture to protect us from deception.
What are these guidelines from Scripture?
 
What are these guidelines from Scripture?
There are many. Here are a few:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God;…” (1John 4:1 )
“… since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:14 )

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Acts 17:10-12 ….carefully examining the Scriptures daily **as to whether these things were so. **

The Bible says if it’s not in the Bible we should treat it as a lie.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

So, the bottom line is,

If it is in the holy Scriptures, I am bound to believe it.
If contradicts the Holy Scriptures I am bound to reject it.
If it is not in the Scriptures, I am free to speculate as long as I don’t contradict the Holy Scriptures.

It is not clearly written in the Holy Scriptures whether Mary had other children with Joseph or not. So it is OK to believe either way. But after seeing where Catholics get their evidence to support perpetual virginity, I have to conclude the evidence is stronger in favor of the Protestant view.

I have no personal opinion either way as I think it is unimportant and has no bearing on the Gospel message.
 
There are many. Here are a few:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God;…” (1John 4:1 )
“… since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:14 )
As what the Church does for example when deeming an Apparition, worthy of belief.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Notice the word ‘Preach’. It doesn’t say to look for it into the Written Word of God only.
1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Acts 17:10-12 ….carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
I noticed how you almost seemingly joined those two verses together as if to force the latter into saying it to mean for us to prove all things by the Written Word only. :rolleyes:
The Bible says if it’s not in the Bible we should treat it as a lie.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
I don’'t read anywhere in that verse where it’s saying the Bible says if it’s not in the Bible etc.
Basically, you just added your own words to it, doing exactly what you said you shouldn’t do.
And to use your own verse against you to prove that the Word of God isn’t contained to Written form only:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

And what does this tell us. Well basically that to not add to His words, means to not add to His Words from both the Written or Oral form since when they were first spoken from the mouths of the Apostles, they had just as much authority as anything Written at the time.
 
There are many. Here are a few:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God;…” (1John 4:1 )
“… since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:14 )
How do you test the spirit?
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
How do you know whether something is truly good if the evil one who masquerades as angel of light has already blinded you from the truth?
The Bible says if it’s not in the Bible we should treat it as a lie.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Actually that verse does not say that if it is not in the Bible it is a lie because the NT was not even written yet. This brings us back to the question of how do we know that the Bible is indeed God’s word.
So, the bottom line is,

If it is in the holy Scriptures, I am bound to believe it.
If contradicts the Holy Scriptures I am bound to reject it.
That is a good starting point yet based on the views you have expressed before you believe things that DO contradict scripture.
It is not clearly written in the Holy Scriptures whether Mary had other children with Joseph or not. So it is OK to believe either way. But after seeing where Catholics get their evidence to support perpetual virginity, I have to conclude the evidence is stronger in favor of the Protestant view.
Actually quite the contrary. There is more support for the Catholic view becuase the Catholic Church is the one who came up with the Bible.

That is why I have always stated that what divides Catholics and Protestants is not the Eucharist, Mary or Purgatory, etc. but Papa Infallibility. If it can be proven that Christ did establish a Church and that Christ is able to keep His promise to preserve it from error by sending the Holy Spirit, then we can believe what the Church teaches.

Christ did not want every Tom, Dirk and Harry to decide for themselves what is scripture and what is not. That is why He established a Church. That is what He did. He established a Church. He did not write a book.
I have no personal opinion either way as I think it is unimportant and has no bearing on the Gospel message.
Yes it does if you fully develop the theology of salvation.
 
That is a good starting point yet based on the views you have expressed before you believe things that DO contradict scripture.
Show me.
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benedictus2:
Actually quite the contrary. There is more support for the Catholic view becuase the Catholic Church is the one who came up with the Bible.

lol This myth has been dispelled many times.
 
Really? Where and by whom?
By me, in this forum, in a thread entitled “Protestants, Why Can’t You Ever Answer A Question From History As Catholic Can?”

The thread mysteriously disappeared without explanation. I contacted the moderator but received no reply. Oooh, I felt like I had just entered the twilight Zone!!! :eek:

I will try to put together a short summary of historical facts that speak directly to the true canon of inspired Scriptures vs. the Catholic canon, and post it directly. 🙂
 
Jesus affirmed which books were indeed the Word of God.* Jesus did not include the extra books found in the Catholic Bible.
(Jesus) said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.”

The oldest canon of the Jewish OT I can find is 2 Esdras (Vg:4 Esdras):

It claims 24 OT books (Vulgate & Peshitta)

Flavius Josephus: [37- 100 ] claims 22 books, but doesn’t name them only the categories: 5 Law, 13 History, 4 Hymns.

Melito of Sardis (d 170 ad) also claims 22 books.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says: " St. Jerome, speaking of the canon of Melito, quotes Tertullian’s statement that he was esteemed a prophet by many of the faithful."* and* “St. Melito, Bishop of Sardis (c. 170), first drew up a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament While maintaining the familiar arrangement of the Septuagint, he says that he verified his catalogue by inquiry among Jews; Jewry by that time had everywhere discarded the Alexandrian books, and Melito’s Canon consists exclusively of the protocanonicals minus Esther. It should be noticed, however, that the document to which this catalogue was prefixed is capable of being understood as having an anti-Jewish polemical purpose, in which case Melito’s restricted canon is explicable on another ground (Reid G. Canon of the Old Testament. Transcribed by Ernie Stefanik. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III. Copyright © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).”
*
That means Melito’s canon consisted of these books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel; Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiaste, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles.

Also, if Melito was considered a prophet, how could he be wrong about the canon???
**
NOTE: **The appearance of a discrepancy in the number of books is due to the way the books were counnted, not a difference in opinion as to which books were included.

The Old Testament existed in complete form before Jesus was born.*

There is no evidence a council was ever held at Jamnia to decide the Jewish canon.
Josephus wrote twenty years before Jamnia* He had actually temple scrolls in his possession.
Josephus’ canon was the same canon as the Protestant Bible (some books were together counting as one )

The Jews were given the OT. They would not have disposed of known inspired writings to disprove Jesus.* We know this as they acknowledge books like Isaiah. There was no need to dispose of Sacred writings as Jews demonstrated by simply rejecting the idea Jesus fit the prophesies or stating the verses pointed to by Christians are not prophecies of the Messiah. .

The apocryphal books admit that prophetic succession had already ended.
(I Macc. 9:27)* *14:41). Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.
(1 Macc. 14:41)And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise,

This means the Apocrypha were not written under the inspiration of God.

Catholic Encyclopedia states:
Canon of the Old Testament
“The terms protocanonical and deuterocanonical, of frequent usage among Catholic theologians and exegetes, require a word of caution. They are not felicitous, and it would be wrong to infer from them that the Church successively possessed two distinct Biblical Canons. Only in a partial and restricted way may we speak of a first and second Canon. ]Protocanonical (protos, “first”) is a conventional word denoting those sacred writings which have been always received by Christendom without dispute. The protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants. [The deuterocanonical (deuteros, “second”) are those whose Scriptural character was contested in some quarters, but which long ago gained a secure footing in the Bible of the Catholic Church, though those of the Old Testament are classed by Protestants as the “Apocrypha”. These consist of seven books: Tobias, Judith, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, First and Second Machabees; also certain additions to Esther and Daniel.”

The Catholic Church admits the Protestant OT, which agrees closely with the Hebrew Bible, has always been accepted and the Apocrypha were disputed at first, but later added.

Jerome separated them from the inspired books - if they were truly set in stone at that time, why was he allowed to make heretical statements and deny the apocrypha had authority?

Still more evidence is the many varying lists that followed Hippo and Carthage. No one could agree - even after Jerome completed his Vulgate.*

The Anglican Article VI says of them: “the Church does read (the books of the Apocrypha) for an example of life and instruction of manners; but yet does not apply them to establish any doctrine”]

The Eastern Orthodox recognizes more apocrypha books than the RC. They split from the Catholic Church in the 11th century - 500 years before the Council of Trent. Why is it that they have more books? There is no record the EO added them after the split, so does that mean the RC removed them at Trent???

**
THE NEW TESTAMENT:**

First century Christians knew who the Apostles were and that they were indeed spokesmen for God and what they wrote was indeed inspired of God. There was no question as the miracles testified to the truth.

ALSO
The Apostle Paul claimed inspiration* 1Galatians 1:11-12 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord.

Peter acknowledges Paul’s writings are indeed God’s written Word.

2 Peter 3:15-16 …as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain
things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also
the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

I think that covers most of it.
 
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