Protestant interpretations...

[Luke65]

Did it ever occur to a Catholic that the Apocrypha might occasionally be quoting from the Old Testament? The Old Testament was written first.

Many of the references to the Deuteros in the NT are not found anywhere else in the OT, but of course you pick one that is. Here’s one of my favorite examples:

“Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being” (Wisdom 1:13-14)

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12)

 

[Ginger2]

Many of the references to the Deuteros in the NT are not found anywhere else in the OT, but of course you pick one that is.

“one”

I believe I have taken “one” from each person who has made the erroneous claim for a total of three so far!

But just so you won’t feel left out, I’ll take a look at your example, as well:

Here’s one of my favorite examples:
“Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being” (Wisdom 1:13-14)

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12)

Your claim is Romans is quoting Wisdom??? I don’t get it.

Let’s break it down and see if Romans is really quotes Wisdom:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
Because God did not make death,

and in this way death came to all men,
nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.

because all sinned
For he fashioned all things that they might have being

OK, that didn’t work…let’s try putting it together another way. :newidea:

… For he fashioned all things that they might have being"
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,

Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.
and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

No…still doesn’t seem one to be quoting the other.

Let’s take a look at Scriptures, now:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for** in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.**

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12)

Romans appears to be paraphrasing the Old Testament.

Ginger

That is four examples, so far, that Catholics are obviously wrong about. I see no point in wasting time going thru all 300 or how ever many you claim.

 

[Luke65]

That is four examples, so far, that Catholics are obviously wrong about. I see no point in wasting time going thru all 300 or how ever many you claim.

Nowhere else in the OT does it say that death entered the world because of man; that can be inferred, but it is not stated until Wisdom, and repeated in Romans.

 

[Luke65]

Isa 40:13 *
Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

Did it ever occur to a Catholic that the Apocrypha might occasionally be quoting from the Old Testament? The Old Testament was written first.

Ginger

I should also point out that the Jews say that this book is the “Wisdom of Solomon”, who lived long before Isaiah.

 

[Ginger2]

I should also point out that the Jews say that this book is the “Wisdom of Solomon”, who lived long before Isaiah.

Solomon lived before Isaiah, but Solomon is not the author of Wisdom - the author is unknown. Furthermore it is uncertain when the book was even written. Speculation is nice but I wouldn’t bet my eternal life on it.

Job might also be the source of the “quote”:
Job 21:22 Shall [any] teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.

On-the-other-hand, it seems this is a well-known fact and Paul may not have been “quoting” anyone, but simply stating a fact.

Ginger

 

[teak421]

Ginger,

Please forgive me if you have answered this… but… don’t want to read 41.23 million messages.

Are you saying that the canon of scripture the Catholic Church compiled at three regional Synod’s and then by the Pope (forgot is name, sorry!) towards the end of the 4th and the beginning of the 5th century did NOT contain the Books that the Catholics use today?

Wow, that was a long sentence for such an easy question…

• Michael

 

[intheBible]

Jesus Christ is the Rock. This can be proved in many ways. Here is a proof text:

Exodus 17:6 (New King James Version)
Behold, I will stand before you there on the ***rock ***in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and **water **will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Numbers 20:7-12 (New King James Version)
7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the **rock **before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall **bring water **for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.
10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and **struck the rock twice **with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “**Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me **in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

To understand these verses, you must remember that Christ only spoke in parables.

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable.
“I” is the trinity nature of God, and Christ ‘is’ God, and the ‘word’ is Christ *john 1:14. Every word of ‘the word’ is a parable]

Matt 13:35 that is might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
[Jesus is quoting Old Testament, He is quoting Himself, He only spoke in parables]

Mark 5:33 And with **many such parables He spoke the word **to them as they were able to hear it.
[Jesus is the word, and with many such parables He spoke the word]

The parable of Exodus 17:6:
God tells Moses that He will stand before him on the rock. God is the Rock, God is telling Moses to strike the rock and bring forth water. This is a parable, an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, a picture pointing to the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”
1Peter 1:19 But **with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish **and without spot.
1Peter 1:20 He[The Lamb] indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest[Jesus Christ] in these last times for you
1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him[The Lamb] from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him[Satan], whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It is also pointing to Christ “demonstrating” how he paid for our sins, by dying on the Cross, though not spiritually because this had already happened before the foundations, when the Lamb was “KILLED” and resurrected and given glory. The water pouring out of the rock is a picture of the blood shed by the Lamb, by Christ, and that by His blood we are saved. Just as the dying Israel in the wilderness, God provided nourishment, however this is written as a parable, there is spiritual truth behind every word, and the message here is that The Rock is God, the Lamb, Christ, and the water pouring forth is the sin cleansing blood of Christ.

 

[intheBible]

(cont)

The parable of Numbers 20:7-12:
The rock is God, is Christ who is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth. God commands Moses to strike the rock only once, a picture pointing to the death of Christ, and how his blood washes our sins away, this is a parable not just a story. To continue, when Moses strikes the rock twice, this is a picture of Christ dying twice, Moses broke the command of God and struck the rock twice, representing killing God twice, for this Moses was not allowed into the promised land. There is a proof text:

Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption

All of these verses point to the fact that Christ cannot die spiritually. It is impossible. You see Hades and Sheol are the same word, they can be translated as death, grave, pit and hell; they all mean the same thing, “Being under the wrath of God”. This is important because while Christ was dying on the cross, He was not under the wrath of God. Being under the wrath of God means total destruction, it means spiritual death. Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth, and when the Lamb was killed, meaning total destruction, meaning the Lamb was spiritually dead, then God resurrected the Lamb and gave Him glory. This means that the act of paying for our sins was completed, and The Lamb, who is Christ can never ever die again. Another proof text is contained in the language. The word Begotten.

The word Begotten implies a beginning. Now we know God is from everlasting to everlasting, so how does God begot Christ, who are one and the same. This is because Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth, when the Lamb was resurrected, the Lamb became begotten, implying a beginning, which is true, because at that moment the Lamb was given glory. and The Lamb is Christ. Christ already died for our sins, He soul can not go to hell, which is being under the wrath of God, which is spiritual death, and we know this also because Christ told the thief on the cross that “today, thou shalt be with me in heaven” TODAY… The proof text that the eternal nature of God, had a beginning with Christ is given in John.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:9
In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has **sent His only begotten Son into the world, **that we might live through Him.

We know that Jesus was begotten of God and not of Mary, though Mary is earthly mother, God is the eternal father, and He begot Him, when He resurrected the Lamb and gave Him glory.

In conclusion, I have shown that the ROCK is actually God, who is Christ. While Peter is a added onto the big rock because Christ is the Word, and Peter is to spread the Word. Christ’s Word, not Peter’s. Peter is a servant, he deserves some praise for being a humble righteous man, but he deserves no Glory. all the Glory goes to God, as He is the one who actually died for us. Peter is charged with spreading and preaching the gospel, Peter is a little rock built upon the foundation of Christ, who is the ROCK.

God bless

 

[teak421]

Evening,

You have quoted a lot of Scripture. Excellent… My question is though, how do you know the scripture text you quoted is truly the Word of God? When the Bible was canonized at about 385AD we had TONS of texts like the Gospel of Peter, Thomas, etc… Jesus never did give us a Table of Contents… Either did Paul.

So, by what authority do you know what you hold in your hands is truly the Word of God? What physical body here on earth determined it?

• Michael

 

[Luke65]

Solomon lived before Isaiah, but Solomon is not the author of Wisdom - the author is unknown.

How do you know that? Does the Bible tell you that? The Jewish tradition, continued by many Church Fathers, was that Solomon was the author of this book. Of course, you reject any tradition that contradicts your opinion and accept any tradition that you like, even if they were invented 1500 years after Christ founded His Church.

 

[roselily]

How do you know that? Does the Bible tell you that? The Jewish tradition, continued by many Church Fathers, was that Solomon was the author of this book. Of course, you reject any tradition that contradicts your opinion and accept any tradition that you like, even if they were invented 1500 years after Christ founded His Church.

The Wisdom of Solomon

:angel1:

 

[roselily]

**The Wisdom of Solomon
**

:angel1:

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger,

Please forgive me if you have answered this… but… don’t want to read 41.23 million messages.

Are you saying that the canon of scripture the Catholic Church compiled at three regional Synod’s and then by the Pope (forgot is name, sorry!) towards the end of the 4th and the beginning of the 5th century did NOT contain the Books that the Catholics use today?

Wow, that was a long sentence for such an easy question…

• Michael

That is correct. The official canon of the Catholic church was established at Trent and differs from Jerome’s original Vulgate.

 

[Ginger2]

How do you know that? Does the Bible tell you that? The Jewish tradition, continued by many Church Fathers, was that Solomon was the author of this book. Of course, you reject any tradition that contradicts your opinion and accept any tradition that you like, even if they were invented 1500 years after Christ founded His Church.

Yes. My Catholic Bible says:

The Book of Wisdom was ritten about a hundred years before he coming of Christ. Its author, whose name is not known to us, was a member of the Jewish community at Alexandria, in Egypt. … At times he speaks in the person of Solomon **placing his teachings on the lips of the wise king of Hebrew tradition in order to emphasize their value. **

That says a lot, doesn’t it!

 

[ronin67]

Yes, but at the time that Jesus said, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”, Paul was a Pharisee. Believe me I am not trying to deminish Paul’s role as an Apostle, but Peter is the successor to Jesus here on earth, (in his own words in Sacred Scripture). Paul is a later Apostle.

Correct, Peter was the rock on which the church was built, but the first pope? Be as it may, St. Paul will always be known as the apostle to the gentiles. My take on St. Peter and St. Paul is as follows. I see them both as being the most humble servants who never glorified themselves to a human position as pope. If Christ (God in the flesh) humbled himself to walk around as an ordinary person, why then all the glorification of humans who aren’t even close to Christ? That part of the Catholic Church I will never understand. However, those denominations that go strictly by scripture are the body of Christ. Human cermonies should never take presidence over God’s word. This being said, we all need to stick together as “The Body of Christ”. Followers divided, will not prosper. Look at the big increase of Islam in the United States. Why do you think this is? Many look at us and think how silly we look not being able to agree on what the true beliefs that encompass the Christian faith. We as Christians need to get it together. Why, because Christ commands it. I love this forum and all the people that frequent it. In closing, thanks be to the Catholic Church for spreading the gospel of Christ to the ends of the earth and thanks be to Martin Luther for bringing the truth of the bible back to the followers of Christ Jesus. Whatever denomination believes that Jesus Christ was the savior of this world (God in the flesh) and preaches this truth of the Holy Bible, is the true church that Peter was designated as the rock of, by Christ Jesus:thumbsup:. Catholics, nor any other denomination has a corner on the market of salvation.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[teak421]

That is correct. The official canon of the Catholic church was established at Trent and differs from Jerome’s original Vulgate.

It was officially established because it needed to be… There was no reason to establish something firmly because everyone knew that the Old Testament contained the larger canon. Do you dispute that the larger canon was the de facto standard before the reformation? Can you point me to any Church councils or other official Church teachings that deny the larger canon? That would be helpful for our discussion.

You might want to consider reviewing the Councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthrage in the late 4th century to offer insights. What do these councils say? Were there any other councils that used a shorter canon?

• Michael

 

[teak421]

Yes. My Catholic Bible says:

The Book of Wisdom was ritten about a hundred years before he coming of Christ. Its author, whose name is not known to us, was a member of the Jewish community at Alexandria, in Egypt. … At times he speaks in the person of Solomon **placing his teachings on the lips of the wise king of Hebrew tradition in order to emphasize their value. **

That says a lot, doesn’t it!

Do we know who wrote Hebrews? How about the Gospels? Do we know for sure they were written by them? Were they signed?

• Michael

 

[Ginger2]

…There was no reason to establish something firmly because everyone knew that the Old Testament contained the larger canon…

• Michael

Then why is today’s canon not exactly the same as Jerome’s Vulgate?

 

[Ginger2]

Do we know who wrote Hebrews? How about the Gospels? Do we know for sure they were written by them? Were they signed?

• Michael

lol…you better go back and read the related posts.

The argument was that Solomon lived before Isaiah and therefore, the New Testament is quoting Solomon, not Isaiah.

My response is in reference to that claim. Solomon did live before Isaiah, but Solomon is not the author of Wisdom.

It is so easy to lose track of the original idea. I do that all the time. I have to keep going back to the OP just to remember what the tread is about.

Ginger

 

[teak421]

Then why is today’s canon not exactly the same as Jerome’s Vulgate?

Does Jerome’s version contain the larger Canon?

• Michael