Protestant interpretations...

[JohnnyBeth]

Scripture is great, but again, there was a church 1500 years before a printing press was invented, and even so, BARELY anyone knew how to read. It was the churches duty to teach. Today almost anyone can read a bible & easily access one, so it’s convenient to say, yes, all you need is the bible, because yeah, it’s easy to obtain & pretty much everyone knows how to read, so the dependence on the church isnt what it used to be. People have a hard time with that for some reason. ~Respectfully, Jason

I suppose that depends on how one defines church doesn’t it? Can you tell me what one needs in addition to Scripture as far as revelation from God about His character and attributes and the way to salvation?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

By the way, I was raised Episcopalian. I wasnt raised catholic. I can understand the protestant frame of mind & how they reason, but once I learned more & more, catholicism wasnt what I thought it was. Everyone has this image in their mind or idea of what it is, and a lot of people come to these forums and people duke it out using scripture as weapons, (which in my mind is the same as using something good for the wrong reasons if used that way) In the end, Protestants & Catholics are more alike than they are different. They’re all believers, but for some protestants, there’s a deep hatred for the church & I think it has to do with how old it is, the values they hold dear & the moral fiber of the church itself. There are anti-catholic rallies in san francisco every year, and one year MILLER beer company SPONSORED this little demonstration. The police actually allowed public fornication in the street right in front of a church. The last time I heard of any sort of desicration like that would be when the civil rights movement was taking place & people were throwing rocks through the windows of black churches, burning them down or what have you. Granted it’s 2009, but the same hatred of morality & the decay of our culture in society is more & more showing its teeth & it kind of makes me wonder what tomorrow will bring.~Respectfully, Jason

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Psalms 149:6-9 6 {Let} the high praises of God {be} in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, 7 To execute vengeance on the nations And punishment on the peoples, 8 To bind their kings with chains And their nobles with fetters of iron, 9 To execute on them the judgment written; This is an honor for all His godly ones. Praise the LORD!

God has intentions for the truth of Scripture and its proclamation which is to distinguish truth from non-truth.

The Miller beer company is an example of what exactly; I missed the point you were trying to make.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

This is a myth, also.

The Talmud tells of the requirement to send children to school and how these schools were to be maintained.

In and probably before the 1st century, Jewish Children were being educated in reading and writing for certain.

Gentiles must have received at least a basic education as well. Otherwise what good would have a Greek Bible done them if they couldn’t read it anyway???

Paul could have stopped at expounding the Scriptures orally and there would have been no need for a Scriptures written in their native tongue.

Ginger

Paul wrote letters and told the recipients to read it with the other churches which implies they could read and understand what was read. Regardless if one can read or not read; the power is in the living word whether being read or heard; the power comes from the Holy Spirit which gives understanding to the Word. Only the regenerate has the capacity within them via the Holy Spirit to understand His word.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

What makes you think it was only a small percentage of people who could read?

Is there anything from the first century that says the average person could not read or that children were not being educated? Show me the historical documentation.

This is an argument used to defend “oral tradition”, but the Bible says Paul reasoned with the Bareans and they searched the Scriptures to see if Paul was telling the truth!

How could they search the Scriptures to see if what Paul claimed was true, if they couldn’t even read???

Ginger

Ginger, did not the Catholic Church actually exacerbate the problem by restricting the Bible to a Latin form for many many years, which even their own clergy could not own or read a Bible unless in Latin; resulting in limiting even the hearing of the Word?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Maybe I need to go back and read how this subject got started…

I am not arguing that literacy rates rise and fall at different points in time. I am saying it is a documented fact first century Christian could read. Jews had schools and children were required to attend.

Ginger

How many literate people does it take to articulate the gospel? How many could one articulate person reach for Christ? I know of a story of about 3000 people being saved in one day from hearing, not reading the gospel, before there was such a thing as a church building and not a priest in sight. The reason is the same for all times; it is the work of God, so we need to quit putting God into our imaginary human bubble. I know plenty of very intellectual types that have read the Bible and don’t understand a bit and likewise I know some people that have an 8th grade education and can barely read, but the know the gospel and believe. It always has been and always will be the work of the Holy Spirit working in the life by taking up residence and exposing the truth. there is no other way given in Scripture to know the truth of God.

 

[Jason_1977]

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Psalms 149:6-9 6 {Let} the high praises of God {be} in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, 7 To execute vengeance on the nations And punishment on the peoples, 8 To bind their kings with chains And their nobles with fetters of iron, 9 To execute on them the judgment written; This is an honor for all His godly ones. Praise the LORD!

God has intentions for the truth of Scripture and its proclamation which is to distinguish truth from non-truth.

The Miller beer company is an example of what exactly; I missed the point you were trying to make.

you must’ve stopped reading it right at that point because I said the miller beer company SPONSORED the ANTI-CATHOLIC event, in the street, directly in front of the church, with people fornicating in public KNOWING that the police had instructions NOT to arrest them for doing so because it was a form of expression. There was no point really if you take it at face value, but if you stop and think about it for a second, it’s kind of sad that a company would actually SPONSOR and anti-ANY religion or faith. Miller has since issued apoloigies to the catholic league & has promised to no longer sponsor the event.

Respectfully,

Jason

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

 

[plain_me]

I suppose that depends on how one defines church doesn’t it? Can you tell me what one needs in addition to Scripture as far as revelation from God about His character and attributes and the way to salvation?

I can, if you will allow me to intrude…

The simple answer is: Nothing. But don’t let me be the authority on that one; let Paul be the authority:

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the SACRED WRITINGS (the Scriptures), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
(2Ti 3:14-15 ESV)

It would take up far too much space in this post to quote early chrch fathers who made this same affirmation, but suffice it to say that an apostolic affirmation is good enough for me. You?

That being said, though, God has given to the church “apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds (pastors) and teachers” (Eph. 4:11) for the purpose of “equip[ping] the saints (all Christians) for the work of ministry.” And this is done by these workmen holding forth thr word of truth (the Gospel: Eph 1:13; Col 1:5; Jas 1:18; and the Scriptures as a whole: 2 Ti 2:15). The apostles knew that they were merely ambassadors of Christ (2 Cor. 5:20), and an ambassador is not someone who brings a message of his own OR adds anything to the sender’s message.

Anyways, who’s looking for something more perfect than God’s word? If the unchanging Scriptures aren’t good enough, we certainly can’t trust in an ever changing outside authority. Even Paul commends the layperson for questioning his own authority in light of the Scriptures (Acts 17:11). This must mean that they are clear enough for the layperson to understand them, right? And if God Himself can’t speak clearly enough through a medium that He has created (language) in order to give instruction to His people, then He can’t possibly hold anyone accountable to it, but He does! And He deems it an adequate voice for mankind (Lk 16:31).

 

[Jason_1977]

I wish I could be saved simply by hearing the gospel. I do that once a week at mass. I understand what you’re saying though.

Respectfully,

Jason

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

 

[Des]

I can, if you will allow me to intrude…

The simple answer is: Nothing. But don’t let me be the authority on that one; let Paul be the authority:

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the SACRED WRITINGS (the Scriptures), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
(2Ti 3:14-15 ESV)

Interesting. So the old Testament which Paul was clearly talking about since Timothy had not the New Testament when he was a child is all one needs to make you wise for Salvation. The New Testament is useless huh.

You’re an excellent example of one who can distort what Scripture is implying to fit your own agenda.

 

[plain_me]

I wish I could be saved simply by hearing the gospel.

You really don’t have to wish, Jason. The Gospel itself has the power to save when applied by the Holy Spirit. Rom. 1:16 says that “the gospel…is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes…” EVERYONE! And keep in mind, that word “believe” does not mean a mere intellectual assent. It means to trust. If you knew Bill Gates, and he told you that he was gonna give you a $100 bill from his pocket so you could go buy him and you some dinner from McDonalds, would you believe He could do it? God is the most powerful, most trustworthy person in the universe. 1 Cor. 1:21 says that it “please God through the folly of what we preach (the Gospel) to save those who believe.” The Gospel is what has the power, and the Gospel becoes void of its power when anyone tries to hold it up by their own actions (which is what Paul was condemning in his letter to the Galatians). You must trust Jesus as you would trust a parachute (as Ray Comfort says). You don’t try to assist the parachute or work with the parachute, you just trust that it will bring you safely to the ground.

I do that once a week at mass.

And I must respectfully disagree with this, as well. Jesus’ work is finished. “He has perfected (note the tense) for ALL time those who are being sanctified”–“by a single offering” (Heb. 10:14). My sin for His righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21). It doesn’t seem fair or just, but believe me, we definitely don’t want justice. We NEED grace instead.

 

[Jason_1977]

“IF THE BIBLE ALONE IS GOD’S WORD, GOD’S ONLY REVELATION OF SUPERNATURAL CHARACTER, THEN THE BIBLE WILL SURELY SAY SO.” ~~~MSGR. John J. Glenn

“THE GIFT OF GOD WAS ENTRUSTED TO THE CHURCH THAT ALL THE MEMBERS MIGHT RECEIVE OF HIM AND BE ALIVE.”~~~ST. Irenaeus, Adversus Omnes Haereses

Check it out. It’s a given that Catholicism is not JUST bible based. That’s a sinch. THAT is because the scriptures make it clear that God has revealed Himself through BOTH the Bible (the word) AND the sacred tradition of the church. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that the bible should be the ONLY source of faith. Finally, Jesus didn’t leave the Bible behind when He ascended into heaven. He left us THE CHURCH, in the ministry of HIS APOSTLES. THE BIBLE EMERGED FROM THE CHURCH…NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Respectfully,

Jason

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

 

[plain_me]

Interesting. So the old Testament which Paul was clearly talking about since Timothy had not the New Testament when he was a child is all one needs to make you wise for Salvation. The New Testament is useless huh.

You’re an excellent example of one who can distort what Scripture is implying to fit your own agenda.

Thanks for your reply, Des. Of course, I would say that the Old Testament Scriptures is exactly what Paul was immediately referring to when He was speaking of Timothy’s previous knowledge of the Scriptures. Obviously, though, Paul wouldn’t have been excluding his own writings and the writinggs of other NT Scripture writers when he gives Timothy further instructions for use of the Scriptures since he himself recognized the authority given to him to speak for God (eg. I Cor. 7); he acknowledged the authority of other NT Scriptures (I Tim. 5:18 quoting Lk. 10:7); and we also have the example of Pet. giving approval to Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Pet. 3:16) which, I’m sure) Paul would have agreed with (not based on pride, mind you, but based on his direct revelatory relationship with Christ).

I’m disappointed by your last condescending comment about the NT being useless, but that aside it is quite a statement that Paul makes when he says that the OT Scriptures themselves are enough to make one “wise for salvation” and that the salvation that one can be made wise for is the salvation that comes “through faith in Christ Jesus.”

This is a very profitable conversation, I think. Thank you.

 

[Jason_1977]

Salvation or being saved in catholicism is a process.

“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been…work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12 It would seem if I were already saved that I’d have nothing to fear, but Philippians states that isn’t the case.

“Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possesion. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind, but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:13-14

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also BEING saved (1Cor. 1:8, 2Cor 2:15, Phil 2:12), and I have the hope that I will BE saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1Cor 3:12-15). I am redeemed…and like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5;2, 2 Tim 2:11-13) - but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to preservere (2 Cor 13:5). And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ. Salvation, according to scripture comes throught the sacrifice on the cross. The NEW TESTAMENT tells us that the saving effects of that sacrifice come to us through baptism. It also tells us that when we live a life in cooperation with the grace of God, we grow in holiness. The end of this journey lies with God in heaven. We, as catholics, trust in this promise but we’re not PRESUMPTUOUS about it. As scripture tells us, when a Christian sins, he puts his salvation at risk. There’s simply no evidence in scripture that salvation or being saved is wrapped up in a single moment or assent or that the conduct of our lives has nothing to do with salvation, or even that salvation, once accepted, can never be lost. Sorry. I had to throw that out there, that’s my 2 cents, I apologize for the length.

Respectfully,

Jason

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

 

[plain_me]

“THE GIFT OF GOD WAS ENTRUSTED TO THE CHURCH THAT ALL THE MEMBERS MIGHT RECEIVE OF HIM AND BE ALIVE.”~~~ST. Irenaeus, Adversus Omnes Haereses

Check it out. It’s a given that Catholicism is not JUST bible based. That’s a sinch. THAT is because the scriptures make it clear that God has revealed Himself through BOTH the Bible (the word) AND the sacred tradition of the church. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that the bible should be the ONLY source of faith. Finally, Jesus didn’t leave the Bible behind when He ascended into heaven. He left us THE CHURCH, in the ministry of HIS APOSTLES. THE BIBLE EMERGED FROM THE CHURCH…NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Jason, would you mind pointing out to me the clear teaching of the Bible that God has revealed Himself through the tradition of the church? I can show you from the source that you quoted above that Irenaeus didn’t think that some outside authoritative tradition was to be coupled with the Bible. Have you read Against Heresies? Irenaeus was arguing against the Gnostics that their tradition was not needed to understand the “true faith.” Here’s a quick quotation from the book:

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us (the apostles), which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed ‘perfect knowledge,’ as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles.”
(Ephesus in Asia. ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies. 3.1.1)

 

[Jason_1977]

I think you missed the point, so here it is again…go ahead & read it. again.

“THE GIFT OF GOD WAS ENTRUSTED TO THE (who?) CHURCH (right.) THAT ALL THE MEMBERS MIGHT RECEIVE OF HIM AND BE ALIVE.”~~~ST. Irenaeus, Adversus Omnes Haereses

Can you show me where scripture says you CANT? YES i have read against heresies. Why would I quote something I know nothing about?

 

[plain_me]

Salvation or being saved in catholicism is a process.

“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been…work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12 It would seem if I were already saved that I’d have nothing to fear, but Philippians states that isn’t the case.

“Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possesion. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind, but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:13-14

In considering these verses, Jason, you’ve gotta keep in mind the immediate context. Paul’s very next words in Philippians 2:13 say, “for (or because) it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” So Paul gives the reason for his encouragement for believers to “work out [their] salvation” as God being the one doing the actual work. Therefore, professed believers ought to be trembling with fear if they don’t see any fruit of salvation in their lives because that would be an indication that God is not at work in them. Consider 2 Cor. 13:5–“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” Of course, this is in line with James’ words to believers in chapter 2 of his epistle: “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

I wrote on my blog on this verse HERE.

Also, in Philippians 3, Paul has a particular goal in mind:

I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord (v.8)

that I may know him (v. 10)

And one process in his pursuit of this goal is to count all of his works based on obedience as nothing (“not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law”) while relying on the one true hope that he has–Christ’s righteousness imputed to his account (“but that [righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ”)

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also BEING saved (1Cor. 1:8, 2Cor 2:15, Phil 2:12), and I have the hope that I will BE saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1Cor 3:12-15). I am redeemed…and like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5;2, 2 Tim 2:11-13) - but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to preservere (2 Cor 13:5). And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ. Salvation, according to scripture comes throught the sacrifice on the cross. The NEW TESTAMENT tells us that the saving effects of that sacrifice come to us through baptism. It also tells us that when we live a life in cooperation with the grace of God, we grow in holiness. The end of this journey lies with God in heaven. We, as catholics, trust in this promise but we’re not PRESUMPTUOUS about it. As scripture tells us, when a Christian sins, he puts his salvation at risk. There’s simply no evidence in scripture that salvation or being saved is wrapped up in a single moment or assent or that the conduct of our lives has nothing to do with salvation, or even that salvation, once accepted, can never be lost.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that salvation is not merely a one time act in the past. Justification, one element in the whole of salvation, is however a past event. I am not saved no matter what; I’m justified based on Christ’s perfect act in my behalf, and I will persevere by God’s grace based on Christ’s work in my behalf, and I have no confidence in myself to do it whatsoever. If I am left to cooperate with God’s grace in order that it will be efficient enough to save me then I’m hopelessly lost and most certainly to be damned.

I’m not sure who told you that the Roman Catholic church’s teaching has come, unchanged, down through history, but you certainly didn’t get that from your own study of historical facts. And someone else must’ve told you that the saving effects of Christ’s sacrifice come through baptism because my NT says that I have been justified by faith:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 5:1 ESV)

I’m willing to be corrected, though…

 

[Jason_1977]

Also, would you mind telling me where sola scriptura is documented as being the only way God reveals himself? The catholic view of revelation is simply God, Scripture, Traditions of the church, & the Teachings of the Church. The KEY focus is God, the other 3 are just the means to that end. It’s pretty simple.

 

[plain_me]

I think you missed the point, so here it is again…go ahead & read it. again.

“THE GIFT OF GOD WAS ENTRUSTED TO THE (who?) CHURCH (right.) THAT ALL THE MEMBERS MIGHT RECEIVE OF HIM AND BE ALIVE.”~~~ST. Irenaeus, Adversus Omnes Haereses

Can you show me where scripture says you CANT? YES i have read against heresies. Why would I quote something I know nothing about?

Can I show you where the Scrpture says I can’t what? What is this gift that Irenaeus was referring to? Of course the Scriptures have been entrusted to the church. They most certainly weren’t entrusted to the Roman officials. And the same goes for the Gospel message. What does that mean? Does it mean that the church produced the Scriptures or that the Scriptures were given to the church? If God’s will and all those things that are capable of making the man of God perfect (2 Tim:3:16-17) are contained in the Scriptures, then God most assuredly would have made sure that the church had those Scriptures, right? I think you may be getting the cart before the horse here, Jason.

 

[peary]

Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid.

In Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and *four *times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

In Aramaic, the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used in a man’s name. But when Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, he had to use the masculine for petros because you *cannot *call a man by a feminine term in that language. So, because Matthew wanted to call Peter a rock, he made the normal feminine word petra masculine (petros) to create a play on words.

I don’t know what Greek some protestant scholars study but it ain’t Koine, that’s for sure!

 

[Jason_1977]

In considering these verses, Jason, you’ve gotta keep in mind the immediate context. Paul’s very next words in Philippians 2:13 say, “for (or because) it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” So Paul gives the reason for his encouragement for believers to “work out [their] salvation” as God being the one doing the actual work. Therefore, professed believers ought to be trembling with fear if they don’t see any fruit of salvation in their lives because that would be an indication that God is not at work in them. Consider 2 Cor. 13:5–“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” Of course, this is in line with James’ words to believers in chapter 2 of his epistle: “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

I wrote on my blog on this verse HERE.

Also, in Philippians 3, Paul has a particular goal in mind:

And one process in his pursuit of this goal is to count all of his works based on obedience as nothing (“not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law”) while relying on the one true hope that he has–Christ’s righteousness imputed to his account (“but that [righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ”)

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that salvation is not merely a one time act in the past. Justification, one element in the whole of salvation, is however a past event. I am not saved no matter what; I’m justified based on Christ’s perfect act in my behalf, and I will persevere by God’s grace based on Christ’s work in my behalf, and I have no confidence in myself to do it whatsoever. If I am left to cooperate with God’s grace in order that it will be efficient enough to save me then I’m hopelessly lost and most certainly to be damned.

I’m not sure who told you that the Roman Catholic church’s teaching has come, unchanged, down through history, but you certainly didn’t get that from your own study of historical facts. And someone else must’ve told you that the saving effects of Christ’s sacrifice come through baptism because my NT says that I have been justified by faith:

I’m willing to be corrected, though…

being justified by faith is great is you have no other purpose to drive you. if for no other reason, we are justified by faith. It works for me. Also, I have NO coaching here & YES OF COURSE there have been moderations to the church through the years, I assumed I was having a conversation with someone I didnt have to explain that to. A mistake I wont make twice. Someone TOLD ME??? I mean, I thought that was common sense that we have a sacrifice on a cross…saving effects of baptism…I mean, if it were untrue, then why the importance? why bother? Are you arguing for arguments sake? Honestly. You sound intelligent but something as simple as this not making sense to you kinda removes the sting from any criticism you have for me, I’m sorry, but that’s the way I see it.

Also, if you agree with salvation as being a sort of life long journey, & the scripture I put up clearly didnt say dont worry, we all are saved, go about your embroidery" then where’s the MISUNDERSTANDING in the face value of the meaning in the scripture? Where’s the beef? Immediate context? Try face value? Phil 2:12 is just one part of the way the people are being instructed to conduct themselves. Whether I continued on or not with quoting that makes no difference. The point is that he’s telling them how to live as believers. I’m not sure what the beef is w. this one. That’s awesome, I love your NT. See if it says that we must be born again of water and spirit. IF there’s a John in your NT that is. There’s one in mine, LOL!!! Also See if you have a Romans 6:3-4 in your NT.

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen