Protestant interpretations...

[Ginger2]

Hi Teak, This is kinda unreal, but the truth. I am reading a book at this moment on the sacraments.

Here is what I came across. The word Sacrament indeed really is in the bible. But meant mystery. So they tranlated the word mystery to become the word sacrament.

That is why we also call sacrament’s a great mystery. A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Chirst to give Grace.

Oh, oh… we agree again!!!

This is a really special day!

 

[JohnnyBeth]

If it’s “implicit in being justified”, then why did you quote that passage? Because you didn’t realize that it doesn’t say what you want it to say? And if that’s what justified means, then why are you still suffering? And if you can be justified and still suffering on Earth, then why not in Purgatory? And you didn’t answer my previous question, why doesn’t the Bible say this: “When we die those of us who are saved will immediately be with the Lord in Heaven forever!” Now that would be good news! But it’s not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

All you have shown here is that you do not understand the gospel nor understand the purpose of Jesus or the reason He was hung on the cross for all transgressions. Their is no distinction of what you refer to a temperal sins. He paid the entire price and was raised to prove it. All of God’s chosen have been forgiven of all, not some of their sins and made declared righteous by God and will enter into His glory on the day their body dies. If the legalist approach works for you, then so be it.

I guess you didn’t notice that it doesn’t say how our sins are “covered”. Did you notice that Paul was quoting the OT? Did you know that this had not been fully revealed at that time? Why do you think it is that the NT never says that Christ “covers over” our sins, but only says that we can “cover over” sins? It’s because the Blood of Christ does NOT “cover over” our sins, it “washes” them away! Do you understand the difference? Calvin didn’t. But now you know why the NT never says that Christ “covers over” our sins.

Now you narrow it to the “how”. Yes he was quoting the OT to make the point that the promise of God has always been on the basis of faith; which is part of the point of Romans 10, but how could you know this? I could careless if you want to say cover over or wash away; the point is God credits or (name removed by moderator)utes Christs righteousness to those who have truly and fully trusted in His Son. Is that a covering of sin or a washing away of sin? Doesn’t matter; their not held against a believer.
As far as having faith in God as not being fully revealed; that is not correct. Jonah is a perfect example of how God’s redemption on the basis of faith was given to the gentiles in Ninevah. What has been veiled is the Jewish harden heart, which is why they rejected the Christ when He came and they still do to this day.

Good luck on not repaying what you owe…

“I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:26)

He’s telling you the truth. Unfortunately, you don’t believe the Son.

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

Yes, it’s easy to see why you ignore these scriptures.

Why is that? Maybe because it does not apply as you try to force it. For example;
Col. 3:22-25 (Proper context)"Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, ***do your work heartily, as for the Lord ***rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality. "

This is speaking of the heavenly rewards based on the works one does through their lives and if was based on pleasing the Lord or pleasing men; those that were pleasing to the Lord will pass the “fire test” like silver and gold and those that were done to please men will be burned up and exposed like the “burning of hay and stubble”. It is rewards, not judgment in view here. As much as I would like to take the time and have a Bible study with you; I do not have that much time, but I am willing to help answer some questions related to salvation.

But you’re good at quoting the ones you like! But of course, you don’t understand. Salvation is a free gift from God - that’s what Paul is referring to. We can’t earn salvation. We can never pay the eternal debt for our sins - wait a minute, I already said this!

“Christ paid the eternal debt for our sins. We pay the temporal price for our sins.”

But of course, you took me completely out of context, and pretended that I was saying we could and must pay the eternal debt for our sins. But your problem is not with my words, it’s with the Word of God. You will pay a price for your sins, sooner or later, one way or another - the Word of God.

How will you ever pay for one sin on earth when you have no means? You can’t and you won’t, but thinking you can & trying to will pile up the debt.

 

[Ginger2]

I just noticed we both used the same smiley icon, too!

 

[rinnie]

God.

And any Christian believer whatsoever if he/she uses the divinely written Word of God and not by his/her own opinion. Because then he/she is not guessing, but relaying what God, the ultimate and sovereign authority has stated.

This is what I did with the Free Bible students, but the authority of God, not by my opinions. I stated what God has revealed.

They did not believe. But considering this heresy still exists today, it is obvious the church fathers did no better than I.

Since Tertullian didn’t succeed in convincing the Arians, [SIGN]what makes you think church fathers have any more authority than I do?[/SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN]
Ginger

God Ginger. God is what makes me think that the Church Fathers have more authority then you do. GOD tell the APOSTLES go out and CHOOSE WISELY. Now were you given that authority of the laying of hands the Power that GOD GAVE the APOSTLES and the Apostles only to pass on? ITs called HOLY ORDERS GINGER. The succession of Laying of hands is Called HOLY ORDERS. Thats the authority passed on from God.

Please go back and read that scripture. The Sacrament we were just ironically talking about.

Holy Orders a Sacrament. AN OUTWARD SIGN INSTITUTED BY CHIRST TO GIVE

GRACE.

God made it outward so the Truth could be seen before our eyes and not Hidden!

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I knew you weren’t using a Catholic Bible as I looked up the different versions to see if any really said what you quoted.

Since there is only one version I know of that says “obey” I assumed you chose it intentionally. **Was I wrong that **you intentionally chose a version that was mistranslated ****to prove your point?

Ginger

Was he or was he not using a Catholic Bble; was he using a protestant NASB bible? What does this mean for him if this is the case?

 

[rinnie]

Oh, oh… we agree again!!!

This is a really special day!

IT is a record day isn’t it!

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I don’t understand why you can’t see what Tertullian actually said.

Tretullian said that H. quoted one Scripture and then added a lot of nonsense that is not supported by that Scripture.

It would be similar to your writing me a letter stating you served cake when your sister came to visit. Then I said your letter proves you are a gourmet chef because you cooked an eight course meal for t your entire family and they all raved of how superbly delicious it was.

Your letter said you served cake - period. It didn’t even state whether you baked it or bought it.

That is the point Tertullian was making. No where did he say people couldn’t understand Scriptures without the help of the RC.

If I missed that quote, please give me the reference so I can see it.

Ginger

I must not contradict; I cannot see. I have my blinders on. I won’t here you. We are cyborg and we are one…please join us and be assimilated as one.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

1st, I already stated I agree we are to “obey” God

2nd, I did not say that version of Scripture doesn’t use the word “obey” I said it is a mistranslation of that verse. The original text does not say “obey” The word “obey” was not written by the author, therefore the word “obey” is not in that verse. The translator mistranslated the word as “obey” when it actually read “believe”.

3rd, the other verses that do say “obey” are not speaking of the same topic, therefore are irrelevant to the point.

Ginger

Yep, be he was getting upset, so by saying it clearly he may calm down, that is why I posted both the NASB and The KJV. However; I believe the rendering of the NASB is more accurate because the word believe in the beginning is a different verb than the second believe, but either way the fact is that part of believing is obeying. Sorry if i offended you, just wanted to cool things down a bit. Forgive me please?

JB

 

[Ginger2]

All you have shown here is that you do not understand the gospel nor understand the purpose of Jesus or the reason He was hung on the cross for all transgressions. Their is no distinction of what you refer to a temperal sins. He paid the entire price and was raised to prove it. All of God’s chosen have been forgiven of all, not some of their sins and made declared righteous by God and will enter into His glory on the day their body dies. …

How will you ever pay for one sin on earth when you have no means? You can’t and you won’t, but thinking you can & trying to will pile up the debt.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[Ginger2]

I believe the rendering of the NASB is more accurate because the word believe in the beginning is a different verb than the second believe, but either way the fact is that part of believing is obeying. Sorry if i offended you, just wanted to cool things down a bit. Forgive me please?

JB

No offense, I just wanted to make certain I was not misunderstood.

It is a different word and because of that, I spent more time on it also.

But some English words that demonstrate a positive effect do not necessarily place a “not” in front to demonstrate the same negative effect.

Unfortunately I can’t think of one right now.

How about “asset” and “liability” ?

 

[rinnie]

I must not contradict; I cannot see. I have my blinders on. I won’t here you. We are cyborg and we are one…please join us and be assimilated as one.

Hey JB you are back. Got a surprise for ya.

The keys.

Isa 22:22 It shows you how the keys are passed down. They not ONLY hold authority but Facillitate SUCCESSION. SUCCESSION passed form Peter to the current Pope today. LINKAGE UNBROKEN

Give her a read!

It will open alot to you. And you can see it with your own eyes. So take the blinders off and check it out.

 

[rinnie]

Don’t want to leave you out either Ginger Now that we are becomming Friends now. This is for you. Tim 2:7 See He tells you he did not Appoint himself to teach. He was appointed.

Then go to Luke 6:12-19 Jesus selected 12 out of a multitude of Disciples. See they had to teach the others. Do you not agree. Just like a Priest does not have the authority as a Bishop. A disciple does not have the authority of a Apostle. ITs all Gods plan!

 

[JohnnyBeth]

[1 Timothy 3:15](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+3:15&version=NIV)** (NIV)**
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

katabolē 1Peter1:20
themelios-1. laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
2. metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals- used in Luke 6:48, Heb 6:1, 2 Tim 2:19, 1 Tim 6:19, Eph. 2:20, & etc.
**1 Tim 3:15 uses for “support” the word hedraiōma; a stay, prop, support
It is the only place this word is used in the NT.

1 Tim.3:15 Douay-Rheims But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the ***pillar and ground ***of the truth.

2:19 NASB Nevertheless, the firm *****foundation of God ***stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

The NIV translation is incorrect, but convenient for your use. I just hope you didn’t get that from a Protestant NIV Bible.

**themelios - 1. laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
2. metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Oh No Ron. This is horrible. If you are correct and the Church is wrong then guess what. God demanded us, may I repeat demanded us to sin On purpose

Its one of the ten commandments. Honor thy FATHER and Mother!

If you are correct why didn’t God command us to Honor our Mother and DAD!

So either you are WRONG or God and the CHurch is. Whats it gonna be Ron?

it is “mother and father”; not “Mother and Father” as you stated. You left out a couple of possibilities, God is right and the Church is wrong or the Church is right and God is wrong.
Too many choices, better check to see what the Bible says.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Once again I believe you are using a faulty translation (I wish I could find my concordance…)

Paul does not call himself their “father” but says he has “begotten” them.

Ginger-

Once again you blame the translation, but the evidence is against you. Maybe the problem is not with the scriptures but with your misinterpretation of them. See for yourself…

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (New International Version)
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (King James Version)
14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (English Standard Version)
14I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (American Standard Version)
14 I write not these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though ye have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (New American Bible)
14 I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (New American Bible)
14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15* For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This was said early in Jesus’ ministry can later Jesus began to reveal the coming crucifixion to them. It is not a declaration of oral tradition.

Uh…no. It was written late in the Apostle John’s life.

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The things not written down are not necessary for us to know. Oh. Is it necessary for us to know that Jesus is fully God and fully man? That God is three persons in one being? That public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle? That there are 27 books in the New Testament?

I could go on, but you get the point. These are things that are necessary for us as Christians to know, and they are not recorded in scripture.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t think this one is important enough to bicker over:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Speaking in tongues is not a requirement according to Scriptures, so they are obviously mistaken.

You chose one of the several examples given and ignored all the rest. The doctrine you deny is very important to those who hold it…what right do you have to declare that these bible-believing Christians are wrong in their Spirit-led interpretation?

But more importantly, shall I bury you with dozens of contradictory and conflicting doctrines taught by Protestant denominations which all claim to follow the Bible Alone and to be led by the Spirit?

Tell me, does doctrine matter in the Church or are contradictory doctrines acceptable?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

it is “mother and father”;[SIGN] not “Mother and Father” as you stated. You left out a couple of possibiliti[/SIGN]es, God is right and the Church is wrong or the Church is right and God is wrong.
Too many choices, better check to see what the Bible says.

Huh? You lost me there.

Now I only gave you 2 choices. You can’t have one choice and have a choice now can we?

Now maybe you misunderstood me or something? Now thats possible.

Let me say it another way. More Clear for you.

Jesus and his Church are One! You cannot separate Jesus from his Church. Jesus is alive today as he was when he walked the earth, through the Church in the Eucharist. How do we know this, many many ways. One he told Paul. Why are you persecuting ME. We all know Paul was persecuting the Church. Who are you asked Paul? I am Jesus the one you are persecuting. (might want to think about that one)

Second he told us he was sending the adcocate the HS to be with us always in the Church to lead it. Thats still God. He promised until the end of time. Well times still here, so we know the end has not come yet. And the Church is still here too!

We also know the Christ is united to the CHurch like a Bride to her groom. 2 become one.

Now just try to take Jesus Christ out of the Eucharist in the CC. It will never happen. You cannot over power the HS. Just llike you cannot Stop the HS from leading the CC the way Jesus promised.

Now we know the Church is ONE. Jesus told us that. It is Holy we know that. It is Catholic we know that . And it is Apostolic.

Jesus left us those MARKS. So we could not be fooled.

Now in order for a Church to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH it must have all of those marks. And in order to have ALL of the Apostolic Teachings it MUST have all of the 7 Sacraments.

Because the Apostles taught us all 7 Jesus left us. No More, No less.

The Pope said if you are in the Church that is one holy catholic and apostolic and has all of the 7 sacraments you can be assured you are in the right Church! You will indeed find all of these in the RCC. That I can promise you. And so can the Pope.

Now can you say that is your Church? If it is, and has all of the above. You are good to go!

Now I do not NEED the bible. But I read it, and I love it. But you could burn every single bible in the world and guess what. We would still have the RCC.

Its been here long before the bible. LONG BEFORE. So if I need assistance I do not have to consult the bible. The bible actually tells me not to do that also. It says go to the CHurch!

You see the RCC is even more powerful then the bible. The bible is only a book, with very powerful words granted. But I do not need the bible to be fed those words. But I do use it, and believe every word is the word of God and love to read it. But I can receive the Sacraments, the word of God oral and written scripture without that Book. But I cannot receive it without the Church. The bible cannot Baptise me, The bible cannot give me the body and blood of Christ. Reading the bible cannot Marry me. ETC. God left the CHurch and the people he APOINTED (hows that GInger) to continue his work.

And the bible cannot interpret itself! Thats the biggie. Its impossible. That is why Jesus did not leave me the bible he left me the Church. Where in the bible does it say to replace the Church with the bible?

 

[Ginger2]

…Now were you given that authority of the laying of hands the Power that GOD GAVE the APOSTLES and the Apostles only to pass on?

This is true. The Apostles pasted their gifts through the laying on of hands. But according to the Scriptures, those who received the gift thru the Apostles, couldn’t pass the gift along to others.

As for what “authority” God has given me, that is found in Scriptures also and affirmed in the fruit of my labors. But I will not share examples as the point of doing do would be glorify God and I fear that won’t be the result.

Ginger

 

[Ginger2]

Was he or was he not using a Catholic Bble; was he using a protestant NASB bible? What does this mean for him if this is the case?

He took the quote from the NASB.

My comment was that he intentionally chose a mistranslated version to support his position.

Ginger