Protestant interpretations...

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ginger,
You seem to be using the interpretation of ‘rock’ as the main emphsis of Mt.16:13-20
I tend to believe it is Peter’s confession “You are the Christ, the son of the Living God.”

God bless ,
bluelake
The confession is a statement of who Jesus is. Jesus is the Rock upon which the church is built.

There is no point in me talking with Catholics about the confession and Catholics talking about Peter’s new name.

I let JWs witness to me in my home for several months. I used their material, not mine.

If I had talked to them about the soul, it would have gotten me nowhere as they don’t believe people have a soul.

Likewise, I don’t talk to Catholics about the confession as Catholics are focused on the new name.

Ginger
 
Are you saying that the main emphasis of the passage is the confession? If so, I think Ginger would agree with that. The question, though, is whether the word “rock” is referring to the confession or to Peter…
Bingo! But there is no point in talking about the confession when the other party keeps talking about the name change.

I once engaged in a conversation about the Holy Spirit from a stand point of One God/One Deity and got nowhere because the other party understood One God to mean One Family of two deities,

Like one church consists of several individuals.

You have to be talking about the same thing or nothing makes any sense.

Ginger
 
It seems to me that Augstine must’ve been some lone rebel against the doctrine of the church, but you can’t really fault him for this since the clarified teaching on this matter wasn’t developed for years. As soon as you made this claim, Randy, I was reminded of a portion in my copy of On Christian Doctrine that I had highlighted for future reference.

…Since protestants are the ones (in your mind) that invented this doctrine then I thank you for relinquishing to us the mighty theologian Augustine…

I think that this is sufficient to refute your claim to some continuity on this doctrine that you suppose.
Poor Augustine.

This faithful son of the Catholic Church has been hijacked for years by non-Catholics attempting to make him out to be some sort of proto-Protestant by cutting and pasting snippets of his extensive writings to support their theological novelties.

Let’s take a look and more of what Augustine wrote, and as you read the thoroughly Catholic thought of Augustine, ask yourself this question: Just how much of Augustine can I stomach?

Augustine On Peter and the Keys

“Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”’ (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

(so much for your proof-text)

Augustine On Peter’s Primacy

“Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?” (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

Augustine on Peter the Rock

“Number the bishops from the see of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who succeeded whom, That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail.” (Psalmus contra partem Donati, 18 (A.D. 393),GCC 51).

“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church.” (Christian Combat, 31:33(A.D. 397), in JUR,3:51).

Augustine on Praying for the Dead

“We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place.” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421])

Augustine on the Seven Sacraments
From Dave Armstrong’s Blog
  1. St. Augustine believed in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist:
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. (*Sermons *227 [A.D. 411])

What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction. (Ibid., 272)
  1. He held to** baptismal regeneration** (sacrament number two):
It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too. (*Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants *1:24:34 [A.D. 412])

The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration. (Ibid., 2:27:43)

Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted. (*Against Two Letters of the Pelagians *3:3:5 [A.D. 420])
  1. He adhered to the sacrament of confession (reconciliation) and absolution and penance (number three):
When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance.

(I have all the rest if you need them)

Augustine on the Real Presence in the Eucharist

That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. (Sermons 227)

Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.”* (Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p.377}*

Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it.* {Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p.387}*

(There are lots more quotes like this.)

In closing, if you acknowledge that Augustine is a “mighty theologian”, then why don’t Protestants LISTEN to him?
 
where on earth you two got this idea that all the apostles were protected from error in everything that they did. Obviously, they were divinely inspired to write the Scriptures as the Spirit carried them along:
Neither Ginger nor I have made this claim. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Apostles were protected from error in everything that they did. Your statement reflects a complete misunderstanding of the doctrine of infallibility.
This does not include their actions or speech in all points as is proved by Galatians 2:

Very obviously, Peter was in error and even leading people astray from the truth of the Gospel itself! This was no minor mistake. Paul said that Peter was distorting the pure message of the Gospel as those whom he anathamatized were in chapter 1 of the same book. He used Peter as an example of someone leading people into heresy. Doesn’t sound like Peter was preserved from error, but this doesn’t automatically translate into the apostles not being able to be considered divinely inspired. They were divinely inspired in all that they put down on paper (or papyrus), and that’s all we have any assurance of.
You are arguing against a straw man; I already explained that we do not believe what you think we believe. Please confine your objections to ACTUAL Catholic doctrine and not Protestant distortions of our faith.

Now, I will address Galatians 2 since this is common Protestant argument. The answer is simple really.

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1
He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17
When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.
 
I’m a bit confused here
A fair self-evaluation.
Oh, and I assume that the concession to the singularity of speech directed towards Peter in chapter 16 is speaking of the fact that Jesus just happened to be addressing Peter specifically and not necessarily when referring to him as a rock. Correct?
Hmmm…hard to say for sure what you are trying to say. Let me just point out what Protestant scholars from a variety of denominational backgrounds have to say about Peter in Matthew 16. By the way, I have two dozen quotes like these if you need them.

Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann

“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…**one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. **“To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter,” Albright says, “among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence, rather it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure, his behavior would have been of far less consequence. Precisely because Peter is pre-eminent and is the foundation stone of the Church that his mistakes are in a sense so important, but his mistakes never correspond to his teachings as the Prince of the Apostles.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter. (Ibid.)

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

Oscar Cullman (Protestant Scholar)

“But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my church’? The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in vew of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia [church]. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich), [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1968], 6:108).

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)

"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy" (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)

“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)
 
ginger,
You seem to be using the interpretation of ‘rock’ as the main emphsis of Mt.16:13-20
I tend to believe it is Peter’s confession “You are the Christ, the son of the Living God.”

God bless ,
bluelake
Bluelake-

That’s not what the Protestant scholars quoted above tell us.
 
The Greek word for priest is ιερεὺς (hieroos) and the word for elder is πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros), but these two words are not the same.
I don’t recall having commented on hieroos. What I pointed out is that the Greek word presbuteros became presbyter from which we derive the English word “priest”.

I stand by the explanation that the NT references Bishops, Priests and Deacons.
 
Speechless! You got me. You are very confused about what the church is and how it functions in and through Jesus as individuals that collectively make up His body, His bride etc. The Bible will verify itself and again you put the Church as a higher authority over the living Word, which is God. Good luck!
How can I possibly put the Church above the word when the CHurch is the word?:confused:

Now you said the bible can VERIFY itself again and again? (How?).

Now how can the bible possibly be higher then the Church and verify itself when the Church was here longer than the bible? THe bible is just a book with the word of God it in. It does not verify itself? IF it could verify itself we would not be here. We would all agree 100% at all times on what it says. If the bible could verify itself you could not twist scripture left and right to TRY to make it say what you want it to. Which you have failed to do anyway.

Okay how do you explain this?

The books are inerrant under the guidance of divine inspiration. Therefore only GOD can reaveal which books he has inspired.

Now thats called cannon. Now why is it if you are correct and the bible can verify itself why is it the CHURCH has answered this question of cannon. And the only possible way it could do that is by turning to Sacred TRADITION.

OH NO there it is the word do not like to hear. TRADITION.

And why is it FROM THE BEGINNING the CHurch has held the books of the bible to be inspired?

QUOTE: The church from her beginning has held the books of the bible to be inspired. By means of the same Tradition full canon of the sacred books is know to the Church and the HS themselves are m ore thoroughly understood and constantly actualized in the church. (vatican 11, Dei Verbum 8) unquote

Now how do you ignore that one?🤷
 
Oh. Well, maybe this does:

“Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (Letters 141:5 [A.D. 412]).

Does the “mighty theologian Augustine” believe that one can be saved if he is separated from the Catholic Church?

No?

So much for OSAS.

Do you still want me to relinquish Augustine to you? 😛
 
I misspoke. Collectively I took as all the Apostles were given this authority - each to teach infallibly, but not to say they were only infallible as a team, save Peter.

I say, All the Apostles had the Authority to teach infallibly as they were spread out teaching individually or in two’s and three’s immediately after Pentecost.

The Bible doesn’t specifically state where each Apostle went directly after Pentecost, but it becomes obvious they did not stay together as a group.

So, they each went out - without Peter to advice them, without telephone to get the correct answers for hard questions - they each went out and taught the Gospel of Christ.

Paul started preaching before ever meeting Peter. How was Paul able to teach infallibly without consulting Peter - and so shortly after regaining his sight!

So this is not a matter of a council, or group being infallible ONLY as a collective group or under the leadership of a pope.

Each Apostle wrote his Gospel infallibly under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The pope didn’t proof read the material, nor did they get together to discern what to write. They each wrote infallibly under divine inspiration, and not all of them were lead Apostles, either. :yup:

Ginger
Again we are agreed. :extrahappy:

The Apostles were individually infallible and they each had universal jurisdiction.

However, the separate distinction made by Jesus suggests that Peter as head of the Church is unique. We can discuss whether this continues is his successors…it’s the next logical step, don’t you think?

But I don’t want to be greedy! I’m happy with the progress we have made so far! 👍
 
Right now, I am working thru the correct interpretation of Matt 18:18. It is easier and sometimes more productive to argue one point at a time rather than be arguing 3 or 4 at the same time.

So, I conceded some points to find agreement on at least one or two.

I have not conceded succession, and neither of us said they could not make mistakes.

Peter did not teach anything in Gal 2. He behaved inappropriately by snubbing one group of Christians to avoid conflict with another group of Jewish Christians.

You are correct in that Paul taught correcting Peter’s behavior. And it is good to point out, this teaching was recorded in the written Word.

I am going somewhere with this, but need to take it one step at a time. It is easy to become confused and jump to false conclusions. First things first; an accurate rendering of the text and then an application consistent with the whole of Scriptures. This often takes time to do properly.

I am not saying Peter or any human being did everything perfect. I am simply trying to figure out what is actually taught in these Scriptures.
Well said, Ginger.

One thing at a time. 😛
 
How can I possibly put the Church above the word when the CHurch is the word?:confused:
Jesus is the Word. John 1:1
Now how can the bible possibly be higher then the Church and verify itself when the Church was here longer than the bible?
Because the Inspired Scriptures are the very Word of God. Not just letters written on a page to form words, but God’s Word in written form - a tangible way to access the Spiritual.

We don’t just learn about God from reading the Holy Scriptures - God communicates to us thru these Scriptures in the present.

I know a man who was homosexual and one day as he was reading the Bible God revealed to him change is possible. Today he is in a heterosexual marriage and has been for several years.

Ginger
 
The confession is a statement of who Jesus is. Jesus is the Rock upon which the church is built.

There is no point in me talking with Catholics about the confession and Catholics talking about Peter’s new name.

I let JWs witness to me in my home for several months. I used their material, not mine.

If I had talked to them about the soul, it would have gotten me nowhere as they don’t believe people have a soul.

Likewise, I don’t talk to Catholics about the confession as Catholics are focused on the new name.

Ginger
Interesting points.

I think the fact that Peter received a new name is important, but it is not essential to the argument concerning Peter as the rock.

The Protestant scholars I cited previously are very clear: Peter, not Peter’s confession and not Jesus Himself, is the rock in Matthew 16:18, and Jesus said that He would build His Church upon that rock…not upon Himself.

Elsewhere in the Bible, of course, Jesus is referred to in similar language. So, we have to be careful about the metaphors and the speaker’s intent.

Sorry to get carried away on this sidebar… 😛
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
I wouldn’t know about modern Protestants, but I do know that Christians follow Christ and the character and attributes concerning Jesus are found in the [SIGN]Bible and no where else can we find a “living Word[/SIGN]” except in the Bible. try no to follow the precepts of men; the [SIGN][SIGN]god-man Jesus is who all need to follow to be on the right path.
[/SIGN][/SIGN]
Sure you can. Try stopping into a RCC someday. I can make you one promise. And I mean PROMISE. You will find the LIVING WORD. And not only the LIVING WORD you will find the LIVING CHRIST. ALIVE and WELL in the Eucharist. THE REAL THING. No grape juice, etc. IT WILL BE THE ACTUAL BREAD AND BODY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST.

I do agree with You the God MADE MAN is Jesus. ANd is all we need to stay on the right path. But do we not have to eat this bread of life to have eternal life?

JN 6:53-58
Truly Truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh Of the SOn of man and drink his blood you ave no life in you. he who EATS my FLESH and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my BLOOD abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread the bread which came dwon form heaven. Nots such as the fathers ated and died HE WHO EATS THIS BREAD WILL LIVE FOREVER.

Now there is no where after that, in any version, of any bible that Jesus stated JUST KIDDING after it. So how could any possibly follow THE RIGHT PATH and not realize the importance of the Holy Eucharist!🤷
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
Jesus is the Word. John 1:1

[SIGN]Because the Inspired Scriptures are the very Word of God[/SIGN]. Not just letters written on a page to form words, but God’s Word in written form - a tangible way to access the Spiritual.

We don’t just learn about God from reading the Holy Scriptures - God communicates to us thru these Scriptures in the present.

I know a man who was homosexual and one day as he was reading the Bible God revealed to him change is possible. Today he is in a heterosexual marriage and has been for several years.

Ginger
How do we know this? Who revealed this to us? THE BIBLE:eek:
 
Again we are agreed. :extrahappy:

The Apostles were individually infallible and they each had universal jurisdiction.

However, the separate distinction made by Jesus suggests that Peter as head of the Church is unique. We can discuss whether this continues is his successors…it’s the next logical step, don’t you think?

But I don’t want to be greedy! I’m happy with the progress we have made so far! 👍
:amen:
 
Jesus is the Word. John 1:1
Hey! One thing at a time. 😛

Actually, I had a similar reaction. Great minds think alike?

I might infer the following from rinnie’s post, however:

The Church is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. The Church cannot be separated from her Head or Her spouse. The two become one. Therefore, the Church and Christ are one. Since Christ is the Word, the Church is the Word.

But I feel uncomfortable pushing the envelope like that. I’ll have to wait for rinnie’s expansion of his thought.
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
That is also what I have always heard.

So I’ll give you Matthew 16:18 is [SIGN]singular and speaking directly to Peter[/SIGN].

I will also concede Matthew 18:18 is not speaking to all believers, but only the Apostles.

Now, before you get too happy about my concessions,…

In Matthew 18:18 where Jesus is speaking to all the Apostles, this is where you have stated proof for papal infallibility:

I never saw that before! This we know all the Apostles wrote and spoke truth or they could not be considered divinely inspired. They were protected from error.

But it disproves papal infallibility as Peter was not the only one protected from error.

(I should acknowledge this doesn’t settle the issue of the keys.)

Ginger
Ginger your words right there should settle the issue you have with the keys. Read what you just wrote. Pray on it. Real hard. Keep reading it over and over. We have done all we can, we showed you. The rest is up to the Power of the HS. Its in black and white. In front of your face. Keep reading it! Keep thinking YOU ARE PETER. YOU ARE PETER and to YOU, YOU. Who is You Peter. Just keep saying it over and over.

There is different authority Ginger, different levels to the Power God gave them. Just like a Priest has the power of the HS to forgive sin, ETC. But a Bishop is higher up in ranks from a Priest. ETC.
 
The Church is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ. The Church cannot be separated from her Head or Her spouse. The two become one. Therefore, the Church and Christ are one. Since Christ is the Word, the Church is the Word.
Good point, it reminds me of what Jesus send to Paul --“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
 
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