Protestant marriages, Catholic marriages?

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

That was an attempt at humor…I seem to have failed.

Sorry Hey at least we failed at that one together! Its just sometimes you never know. Sometimes I feel like I am on the witness stand. ITs like what you say can and will ve used against you.

BUt again sorry I it flew right over my head!

 

[rinnie]

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[SIGN]No, I do understand the difference that Catholics assign to each process…'annullment" and “divorce”…as I have often said we “speak past one another” at times. [/SIGN]
While I cannot apply “Protestant understandings” to “Catholic concepts” and have it come out in a meaningful dialog with all thigs equal…so Catholics cannot ascribe “Catholic understandings” of concepts and meanings which Protestants embrace.

I understand the difference that Catholics give the two concepts and the reasons they would allow an “annullment” vs. a “divorce”. The nuances of what constitutes an invalid marriage for a Protestant…are…“lost” in many cases between us. Catholics do not believe in “divorce”…understood. They will consider a “marriage” null and void under certain circumstances…no matter how long the “marriage” lasted or how many children are involved…this simply seems a bit “nuts” to me…but then…I’m pretty thick headed…I don’t accept the fine “distinctions” Catholics make…to my simple mind and belief system…it is a way for Catholics to “get past the letter of the law” so to speak and keep their spiritual integrity by not “believing in divorce”. Right or wrong it is this Protestants view…as thick headed as I am of course.

We each “speak” different religious languages…and I understand the “difference” Catholics seek to make, to me it is “spiting hairs”. In many cases when a Protestant “divorces”…they may get a civil divorce…but religiously in their minds it is an “annullment” with their respective religious body giving them the “authority” to declare their marriage “annulled”. Protestants don’t have the same concept of priesthood so here again lies a difference. Catholics “need” the church to declare the “marriage” “invalid”. Catholics work within the heirarchy of their church…Protestants have no such view of “heirarchy”. It is our repsonsibility to determine the mind and will of God on any given subject and it is a repsonsibility we embrace…if there is “hell to pay” we accept that from the hand of God and accept that responibility…this may not be true for all Protestants…as I am speaking from my own perspective.

I do understand the Catholic view…I simply don’t embrace it.

I disagree with you. And I wish I could find a better way to explain it but for some reason I have failed. Maybe from the Grace of God he can send someone to explain it better than I. As you can see I am not a good teacher:blush:

But I will find other official Church teaching and post it later. Maybe that can help. I have alot of books by our last Bishop he explains things easier. I will look it up. It may take some time though.

 

[Publisher]

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I disagree with you. And I wish I could find a better way to explain it but for some reason I have failed. Maybe from the Grace of God he can send someone to explain it better than I. As you can see I am not a good teacher:blush:

But I will find other official Church teaching and post it later. Maybe that can help. I have alot of books by our last Bishop he explains things easier. I will look it up. It may take some time though.

Rinnie,

Your explanation is fine…I do understand…I don’t accept the teaching you’re trying to convey…I am speaking “Protestant” you are speaking “Catholic”. I understand Catholics do not believe in divorce…period. I understand Catholics believe there are certain circumstances which make a marriage “null and void”…so those parties involved can request an annullment which frees them from an invalid marriage to have a valid sacramental marriage to someone other than whom they were “invalidly married”. It is not a “second marriage” since there’s only “one to a customer” unless the surviving pary wishes to be re-married after the death of a spouse.

If I “agreed” with the Catholic position of an “invalid marriage”…I would be Catholic…you explained it fine.

 

[happilycatholic]

No, I do understand the difference that Catholics assign to each process…'annullment" and “divorce”…as I have often said we “speak past one another” at times.

While I cannot apply “Protestant understandings” to “Catholic concepts” and have it come out in a meaningful dialog with all thigs equal…so Catholics cannot ascribe “Catholic understandings” of concepts and meanings which Protestants embrace.

I understand the difference that Catholics give the two concepts and the reasons they would allow an “annullment” vs. a “divorce”. The nuances of what constitutes an invalid marriage for a Protestant…are…“lost” in many cases between us. Catholics do not believe in “divorce”…understood. They will consider a “marriage” null and void under certain circumstances…no matter how long the “marriage” lasted or how many children are involved…this simply seems a bit “nuts” to me…but then…I’m pretty thick headed…I don’t accept the fine “distinctions” Catholics make…to my simple mind and belief system…it is a way for Catholics to “get past the letter of the law” so to speak and keep their spiritual integrity by not “believing in divorce”. Right or wrong it is this Protestants view…as thick headed as I am of course.

We each “speak” different religious languages…and I understand the “difference” Catholics seek to make, to me it is “spiting hairs”. In many cases when a Protestant “divorces”…they may get a civil divorce…but religiously in their minds it is an “annullment” with their respective religious body giving them the “authority” to declare their marriage “annulled”. Protestants don’t have the same concept of priesthood so here again lies a difference. Catholics “need” the church to declare the “marriage” “invalid”. Catholics work within the heirarchy of their church…Protestants have no such view of “heirarchy”. It is our repsonsibility to determine the mind and will of God on any given subject and it is a repsonsibility we embrace…if there is “hell to pay” we accept that from the hand of God and accept that responibility…this may not be true for all Protestants…as I am speaking from my own perspective.

I do understand the Catholic view…I simply don’t embrace it.

I totally understand. It’s a little like embracing a cactus to me too, but embrace I must

Christ didn’t say the way would be easy, just difficult and narrow. I just hope I can squeeze through.

Peace be with you.

HC

 

[happilycatholic]

Rinnie,

Your explanation is fine…I do understand…I don’t accept the teaching you’re trying to convey…I am speaking “Protestant” you are speaking “Catholic”. I understand Catholics do not believe in divorce…period. I understand Catholics believe there are certain circumstances which make a marriage “null and void”…so those parties involved can request an annullment which frees them from an invalid marriage to have a valid sacramental marriage to someone other than whom they were “invalidly married”. It is not a “second marriage” since there’s only “one to a customer” unless the surviving pary wishes to be re-married after the death of a spouse.

If I “agreed” with the Catholic position of an “invalid marriage”…I would be Catholic…you explained it fine.

Oh my goodness I’m going to futher vex you…

Catholics believe in “vocations”, that is what we are called to do in obedience to God’s will in our lives.

Sometimes people are called to be single. The Church does support divorce in some instances where severe abuse and/or infidelity (and maybe some other things) are present. I think abuse of children is a huge one. So to say the Church doesn’t believe in divorce ‘period’ is a misnomer because the Church certainly does allow it for certain situations.

That being said, again you are looking at the end of the marriage. If my husband and I were cradle catholics, married validly and sacramentally in the Church and he became abusive to me and my children to the point of fearing for our lives (I’m being extreme purposely) then the Church would support me divorcing my husband.

THEN…

They would most likely counsel me on being celibate. The Church would probably not grant a Decree of Nullity because at the time of consent everything was wonderful, but somewhere along the line, evil crept in and took hold. The covenant is still binding even though one or both of us are not living up to it. Our promise to God cannot be set asunder because of one or the other or both of our failings. So we must honor it by accepting the vocation of celibacy both to continue to satisfy the covenant with God and for the safety of me and my children. This also leaves the door open to the possibility of reconciliation should that be God’s will. This way, we do not transgress the will of God and still satisfy our need to be out of harm’s way.

So, in this case divorce is allowed but that is the civil remedy. The spiritual remedy is to be celibate and we believe that is God’s will.

Blessings,

HC

 

[Publisher]

Oh my goodness I’m going to futher vex you…

Catholics believe in “vocations”, that is what we are called to do in obedience to God’s will in our lives.

Sometimes people are called to be single. The Church does support divorce in some instances where severe abuse and/or infidelity (and maybe some other things) are present. I think abuse of children is a huge one. So to say the Church doesn’t believe in divorce ‘period’ is a misnomer because the Church certainly does allow it for certain situations.

That being said, again you are looking at the end of the marriage. If my husband and I were cradle catholics, married validly and sacramentally in the Church and he became abusive to me and my children to the point of fearing for our lives (I’m being extreme purposely) then the Church would support me divorcing my husband.

THEN…

They would most likely counsel me on being celibate. The Church would probably not grant a Decree of Nullity because at the time of consent everything was wonderful, but somewhere along the line, evil crept in and took hold. The covenant is still binding even though one or both of us are not living up to it. Our promise to God cannot be set asunder because of one or the other or both of our failings. So we must honor it by accepting the vocation of celibacy both to continue to satisfy the covenant with God and for the safety of me and my children. This also leaves the door open to the possibility of reconciliation should that be God’s will. This way, we do not transgress the will of God and still satisfy our need to be out of harm’s way.

So, in this case divorce is allowed but that is the civil remedy. The spiritual remedy is to be celibate and we believe that is God’s will.

Blessings,

HC

LOL…doesn’t vex me at all…I didn’t realize we were discussing “civil” divorce…I thought we were talking about “divorce” “sanctioned” or “accepted” as a legitimate reason to end a marriage and then re-marry. Civil divorce is a fact of our society. Catholics and Protestants have had civil divorces for as long as civil divorces have been granted. That we are discussing ‘civil divorces’ is good news too.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Your explanation is fine…I do understand…I don’t accept the teaching you’re trying to convey…I am speaking “Protestant” you are speaking “Catholic”. I understand Catholics do not believe in divorce…period. I understand Catholics believe there are certain circumstances which make a marriage “null and void”…so those parties involved can request an annullment which frees them from an invalid marriage to have a valid sacramental marriage to someone other than whom they were “invalidly married”. It is not a “second marriage” since there’s only “one to a customer” unless the surviving pary wishes to be re-married after the death of a spouse.

If I “agreed” with the Catholic position of an “invalid marriage”…I would be Catholic…you explained it fine.

Oh good. That makes my day anyway. I understand you do not agree with our Church and our teachings because you are right that would indeed make you Catholic

But you know what I have seen, I am not that OLD yet but I am getting there, But the Church is big on marriage and family’s and thats a good thing. And I know this world is horrible and sad, but there is still alot of happiness and love in my house. But we do have our days also. But more good than bad. And that has to be because of God.

 

[rinnie]

LOL…doesn’t vex me at all…I didn’t realize we were discussing “civil” divorce…I thought we were talking about “divorce” “sanctioned” or “accepted” as a legitimate reason to end a marriage and then re-marry. Civil divorce is a fact of our society. Catholics and Protestants have had civil divorces for as long as civil divorces have been granted. That we are discussing ‘civil divorces’ is good news too.

You know Father was talking about that in Church. And as sad as it is to say, many people do understand what marriage is, and should not be married. But they did make that commitment. I just wonder if they could have sat down, really asked for God’s help and really wanted it what could have happened. But so much gets in the way, Pride, lust, greed many things.

Everything gets in the way but God. They seem to cut him out of the picture completely. And you don’t have to be Catholic or Protestant to do that. I think we can all accept the blame for that no matter what our CHurch. But its not the teachings of the Church or the Church itself that failed. Its us. The marriages that failed forgot to go to God for help. The Grace we received on that day has to be taken care of. And with Sunday Mass, prayers thats how its done. But People go to the Church have a big wedding and you never see many of them again. How could Gods grace grow if it never was weeded or watered?

The family that prays together stays together. When is the last time you heard that one.

 

[happilycatholic]

LOL…doesn’t vex me at all…I didn’t realize we were discussing “civil” divorce…I thought we were talking about “divorce” “sanctioned” or “accepted” as a legitimate reason to end a marriage and then re-marry. Civil divorce is a fact of our society. Catholics and Protestants have had civil divorces for as long as civil divorces have been granted. That we are discussing ‘civil divorces’ is good news too.

See, you just hooked yourself…

Divorce doesn’t address remarriage. That is where annulments come in .

Anyone can be divorced, but not everyone can remarry. See?

Annulments don’t “end” marriage.

Civil = societal

(as opposed to those things ordained by God)

God doesn’t divorce people. People divorce people.

So one remedy is attributed to society. The other attributed to the Holy Spirit.

See?

Blessings,

HC

 

[Publisher]

See, you just hooked yourself…

Divorce doesn’t address remarriage. That is where annulments come in .

Anyone can be divorced, but not everyone can remarry. See?

Annulments don’t “end” marriage.

Civil = societal

(as opposed to those things ordained by God)

God doesn’t divorce people. People divorce people.

So one remedy is attributed to society. The other attributed to the Holy Spirit.

See?

Blessings,

HC

Yes, I see the “hook”…we’re back to semantics and word games…pretty much where we started.:

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Yes, I see the “hook”…we’re back to semantics and word games…pretty much where we started.

All marriages are assumed to be valid unless one or both of the parties are baptized Catholics and they were married outside of the Catholic Church without a proper dispensation.

Annulment is an official declaration led by the Holy Spirit, through the Catholic Church, stating that no marriage ever existed due to a defect in one or both parties at the time of the wedding.

Divorce is a certificate the State or Country will give a couple who were once married by the State or Country, but no longer want to be married by the State or Country.

 

[Publisher]

All marriages are assumed to be valid unless one or both of the parties are baptized Catholics and they were married outside of the Catholic Church without a proper dispensation.

Annulment is an official declaration led by the Holy Spirit, through the Catholic Church, stating that no marriage ever existed due to a defect in one or both parties at the time of the wedding.

Divorce is a certificate the State or Country will give a couple who were once married by the State or Country, but no longer want to be married by the State or Country.

So how would you answer one of the poster who felt that two atheists who were married…aka “had a wedding” were not validly “married”? Does the church assume it is a valid marriage when neither believe in God nor are baptized?

 

[Bluegoat]

So how would you answer one of the poster who felt that two atheists who were married…aka “had a wedding” were not validly “married”? Does the church assume it is a valid marriage when neither believe in God nor are baptized?

Yes, they do. It isn’t a sacramental marriage if they are not baptized. It seems to me this discussion has very much overlooked parts of Catholic understanding of marriage, which also includes natural marriage.

People really were married before Christianity came along!

 

[Publisher]

Yes, they do. It isn’t a sacramental marriage if they are not baptized. It seems to me this discussion has very much overlooked parts of Catholic understanding of marriage, which also includes natural marriage.

People really were married before Christianity came along!

Thank you! That was the term I’d been racking my brain for…“natural marriage”…or should it be “natural having a wedding”?"

 

[Bluegoat]

Thank you! That was the term I’d been racking my brain for…“natural marriage”…or should it be “natural having a wedding”?"

Many weddings are entirely unnatural, IMO.

 

[CradleCath]

I understand that YOU believe a marriage never happened. I understand that YOU believe God never sanctioned the marriage. That’s ok…I don’t have to believe what you believe…I don’t have to “understand” all the intracacies of Catholic law as I’m not Catholic.

The point is that Catholics seem to think divorce is OK with Protestants…it’s not. Many of the divorced persons I know state the same things you did…they were too young…they didn’t realize what the commitment of marriage meant when they pledged their lives to one another…I know a man who’s wife “came out” as a lesbian after twenty years of marriage and two children…she believed marriage would “cure” her…all it did was break two hearts.

Catholics from what I understand do not believe they have the capacity to make the decision for themselves if the marriage was “valid” or not and so turn to their church for the answer…those Protestants I know who use the same reasons for “divorce” that Catholics use for “annullments” believe they do have the capacity to make that decision as they are older adults…again…for most Protestants, “Catholic annullment” is the “Protestant” version of “divorce”.

As a Catholic who has been married for 40 yrs, I do understand & somewhat agree with what you are saying. During the last few decades, Catholic annulment **has **become a “Catholic divorce” especially here in the states. The United States has 6% of the world’s Catholics but grants 78% percent of the world’s annulments. In 1968 the Church here granted fewer than 600 annulments; from 1984 to 1994 it granted just under 59,000 annually. Yep, 60,000 PER YEAR. Howevert more than 90% of the cases which were appealed to the highest matrimonial court, the Roman Rota, were overturned.

catholicinsight.com/online/church/divorce/c_annul.shtml

So, as you can see by the figures above, that the fault for the crisis re our annulment process is NOT the Catholic Church, it is the fault of Catholic Bishops & the tribunals here in the US. &, to a lesser degree, in Europe. Compassion & tolerance can never be used to deny Scripture. We do not have that right.
If you are interested in the details as to how & why this has happened, it would be good to read the entire document I linked to. For a short answer: this has come about as a result of the liberal American hierarchies’ attempt to “modernize & liberalize the Catholic Church” & it has not turned out to be beneficial

To explain the situation, let me first give…the Church’s view on the indissolubity of marriage. The Church does not expect any of us to actually live with a spouse who is abusive, nor are we required to live with an adulterer or an alcoholic. We may get either a legal separation or a secular divorce. These are acceptable because the spouse who has custody of children may need financial help from the ex.

Remarriage, however, is** forbidden**…because in the eyes of the Church, a marriage between 2 people, married in front of a priest & God (IOW. a Sacramental marriage) cannot be dissolved. It is as Christ said, “What God hath put together, let no man put assunder”. When a divorced Catholic “remarries”, the Church considers his/her relationship the same as adultery/fornication.

Annulment on the other hand is saying that a **marriage never happened. ** In the past &, I believe we are going back to our original stance on annulment, (at least I hope so)annulments were given to people who were lied to before the ceremony. For instance, if a man was already married & hid this from his "bride-to-be"an annulment could be granted… It was granted if one of the couple was unable to consumate the marriage, if one’s parents or another party threatened one of the couple with physical harm should they not consent to the marriage.

The job of the Church, of our priests & our hierarchy, is to insure that both partners are aware of / educated about what it takes to make a lifetime Sacramental marriage. We have fallen down in this area during the past 40 yrs. During the 80’s, priests in my diocese would not allow anyone to be married in the Church without 9 months of classes. These cover every aspect of marriage…from our teachings about raising our children in the faith, about finances, about sexual love…to help with NFP & our need to attend Sunday Mass as a family. However, the same couple could drive 150 miles to a neighboring diocese & marry within the month if they chose to.

Hopeully, this is on it’s way out.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, they do. It isn’t a sacramental marriage if they are not baptized. It seems to me this discussion has very much overlooked parts of Catholic understanding of marriage, which also includes natural marriage.

People really were married before Christianity came along!

Yes, but the title of the thread is Protestant marriages, Catholic marriages.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes, but the title of the thread is Protestant marriages, Catholic marriages.

I think though the point was not just marriages between Catholics, but how Catholics understand marriage.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think though the point was not just marriages between Catholics, but how Catholics understand marriage.

Ok granted.

Can you elaborate when you said natural marriage and 'People really were married before Christianity came along! ’ I thought you might want to imply something but I’m unsure.

Thanks.

 

[Bluegoat]

There were no sacraments before Christ instituted them. If sacramental marriage was the only kind, all marriages before Christianity would be “invalid” or just shacking up.