H
Hesychios
Guest
Warren H. Carroll is hardly an unbiased author.
The suggestion to check into the bibliography is a valid and worthwhile idea though, he may have referred to some good solid independent scholarship.
- Status
The suggestion to check into the bibliography is a valid and worthwhile idea though, he may have referred to some good solid independent scholarship.
L
Leonius
Guest
He was not one fanatic, he was their leader, and he was not the only one killing priests, the whole aim of the Huguenots during the war was to remove Catholicism from France. Just like it was the aim of the Lutherans to remove Catholicism from Germany and the Anglicans and puritans to remove Catholicism from England, which they achieved by the way by force of arms and laws which made it illegal to be Catholic.
The protestants were the rebels and caused trouble wherever they went during this time period, it was they who were trying to overthrow the order of things through violent revolution. That is a historical fact like it or not.
Peoples ancestry today is of no relevance to the history we are discussing.
If you cannot discuss this without getting upset perhaps you would be better of not discussing it.
L
Leonius
Guest
I found him very even handed personally and he gets all his information from other documented sources, perhaps it is you who is the biased one did you ever think of that?
The fact that you would throw that accusation without even having read the books says a lot about you and your bias, what did you do google his name and find out he was a Catholic and so assume he must be biased?
Dr. Carroll is himself a convert, he has no need to falsify history.
Independent is just another name for secularists who have nothing good to say about anything religious generally, if that is who you put your faith in you are making a grave mistake.
R
Roy5
Guest
It was one thing for the Pope not to intervene. However, I’ve read that when he heard the ‘good news’ of the massacre he ordered a special Te Deum sung at the Vatican in celebration.
Code:
There was plenty of killing on both sides during the religious wars. We all should be ashamed. What pain it must have caused Christ that all this was done in his name!
An ancestral grandfather on my mother's side became a Huguenot in Ghent, Belgium. He was summoned to the City Council to be tried for heresy amd likely executed, fled with his family to France that evening, then fled to England when Huguenots were no longer tolerated in France and his grandson came to MA in 1639 as a Puritan. No wonder they had a deep suspicion of the Catholic Church.
On my father's side, my French-Canadian ancestor grandfather became a Baptist as a result of the Patriotic War in 1847-48. His conversion led to hard feelings in Quebec so his family eventually left Canada to come to the USA.
We should all repent for such stupid prejudices. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of Christians in this country today show enormous tolerance. I never hear anti-Catholicism expressed among my Protestant kinfolk or friends, only among those who would like to chase all religion out of the public square. It is only here on CAF that I run into avid religious bigotry, directed against Protestants in particular. Christians should work together to battle those who are 'gunning' for us all.
Meanwhile, may God be patient with us and bless all Christians - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, all his children of every race and creed. May religion became a bridge instead of a barrier.
L
Leonius
Guest
And why not?
Through the actions of the Parisians the Royal family were saved from the plotters and France was preserved Catholic from those who would have taken her through violence and suppressed the Catholic Faith just as happened anywhere in Europe where protestants were able to seize power, (in fact they even did it in Catholic Maryland in the US after the Catholics there had offered them sanctuary from another sect of protestants to).
Is that not something to be thankful for?
The Te Deum was a prayer of thanksgiving to God for that, not a celebration of the deaths of those who lost their life’s.
Word of advice, attacking the Pope is not a good way to build bridges with Catholics.
H
Hesychios
Guest
H
Hesychios
Guest
You are just showing your hand here.
You do not use unbiased sources, so your arguments lose credibility before you post.
I am not saying there isn’t much to be learned from him, but you need to discern the facts from the opinions of people like Mr Carroll. And we are going to have to discern the facts from the opinions of people like you.
H
Hesychios
Guest
So that they themselves could help destroy the church later!
This argument does not explain the role France played later on the Protestant side in the Thirty Years War. The French Prime Minister was none other than Armand de Richelieu, a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic church. So the murderous people of Paris saved the Catholic monarchy just to see their work go into supporting the Protestant cause in Germany. :banghead:
Then later the Catholic French people turned on their church with a horrific vengeance.
It was the mob of Paris who turned to Deism, and closed the Catholic churches. They even renamed Notre Dame the “Temple of Reason”. Instead of Christ they glorified a “Godess of Reason”, which makes perfect sense, considering that the west has generally emphasized human intellect, logic and reason over the mystery and paradox associated with earlier Christianity. The Scholastic Era emanating originally from the University of Paris, so I suppose we can say the trend came full circle.
Anyway, there is no way we can make massacres associated with the wars of religion (and there was plenty perpetrated by every side) look justified. Murder is literally sin unto death. The people who perpetrated these heinous crimes were the equivalent of todays abortionists, they were getting rid of unwanted people!
R
Roy5
Guest
RE PROTESTANT PREJUDICE IN USA
Code:
Yes, it's true. There was anti-Catholic feeling in the USA, though very little of it remains today. My own experience is that CAF is a magnet attracting some who are virulently hostile to Protestantism.
As for the USA, 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were Protestants, and except for Kennedy, probably the most flagrant womanizer to ever occupy the White House, every president was a Protestant. Yet, millions of Catholics were welcomed to America. So, what was an overwhelming Protestant majority is now only about 2-1, Protestant to Catholic. That seems to speak reasonably well about the openness of Protestants to persons of others faiths over the years.
Protestant bigotry is bad, of course, as is Catholic or Orthodox bigotry. I know an Orthodox priest, a learned man and basically well-meaning, but he is not shy about indicating that his version of Christianity is the original and only valid one.
Frankly, we're all a bunch of sinners who should be careful of pride, whether about our religion or race or whatever. Then, again, I guess I do take pride in my country, though superpatriotism doesn't appeal to me. I always want my country to be better.
One experience. Years ago, when Franco was dictator of Spain, I visited that country. The fascist government there was in cahoots with the church and Protestants were not allowed to function openly. They had to worship underground. Franco, Mussolini and Hitler all were baptized Catholic, just as Lenin once thought of being an Orthodox priest. But that is irrelevant in 2009.
So, why do we waste time playing this game of one-upmanship? What Christians need to do is be less concerned about the superiority of one church over another and seek to work together, forgetting the past, as scripture advises, and going forward trusting in our one God and Redeemer. Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox all have soiled records, and we need to "let the dead bury the dead". As I recall, Jesus suggested that, too. It's when we try to justify horrendous sins of earlier times that we sound ridiculous. I need to resist that temptatuon myself, especially here in CAF where Protestantism seems to be a favorite whipping-boy and my impulse is to reply in kind.
May God forgive us all, and may He bless Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and people of every creed, race, color, vocation, tongue and language. We must work to make religion a bridge and not a barrier.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Good post!
Although I agree with the Orthodox priest you are right to call us on it. There is a point where certainty can verge on pride, which is a capital sin.
May God have mercy upon us, and bless us all.
Michael
H
Hesychios
Guest
Hi twf,
Modern Catholics like to read the modern papacy back into history and it is not there. In fact, not only were local bishops (outside of the Metropolitan See of Rome) appointed by local synods, but there were long periods when the Popes themselves were appointed by monarchs.
Of course you are free to post your evidence that Popes of the 16th century or earlier claimed universal jurisdiction.
Orthodox know that the whole concept is a fabrication, which is why we will have to find a different model for reunion than most Catholics are probably thinking of.
This is why the then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:
“Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than what had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium . . . Rome need not ask for more. "
Now that’s a smart guy.
Primacy is nothing new to Orthodox, it is operative at every church level. In fact one could say the Orthodox church has an expertise on the function of primacy that the Latin west has essentially forgotten.
What you are claiming for the bishops of Rome is not primacy, but a type of supremacy that has always been foreign to the church (in the east and the west), and this episode in French history is just one of very many examples of that fact.
Actually it does not matter what they claimed. They never had it.
Modern Catholics like to read the modern papacy back into history and it is not there. In fact, not only were local bishops (outside of the Metropolitan See of Rome) appointed by local synods, but there were long periods when the Popes themselves were appointed by monarchs.
Of course you are free to post your evidence that Popes of the 16th century or earlier claimed universal jurisdiction.
Nor anywhere else outside of central Italy until recent centuries.
Orthodox know that the whole concept is a fabrication, which is why we will have to find a different model for reunion than most Catholics are probably thinking of.
This is why the then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:
“Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than what had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium . . . Rome need not ask for more. "
Now that’s a smart guy.
Primacy is nothing new to Orthodox, it is operative at every church level. In fact one could say the Orthodox church has an expertise on the function of primacy that the Latin west has essentially forgotten.
What you are claiming for the bishops of Rome is not primacy, but a type of supremacy that has always been foreign to the church (in the east and the west), and this episode in French history is just one of very many examples of that fact.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
For a brief summary of Reformation religious violence, go to the following link. I’d better point out it’s a skeptic’s link, where he’s doing the usual skeptic function of blaming religion for all the world’s violence. In actual fact, religion is and has been a factor in a lot of it, as with Islam today for example, whether we like it or not.
geocities.com/paulntobin/war.html#ireland
My old Protesant pastor suspected Martin Luther was the “false prophet” of Revelation fame. In his opinion, it all went wrong when Luther holed up in the Wartburg. Instead of becoming a martyr for the faith, millions of others became martyrs instead, and religious war raged on for a century, with centuries of intolerance and cruelty more that followed on, all in the name of Christ.
But Luther willingly supported the incredible violence which surrounded the division of the church. And of course most of it was political.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Well put, I essentially agree with your old pastor.
That is to say, he was certainly a model or type of false prophet in that sense. There have been others…
True as well, in those matters he was terribly misguided.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Well put, I essentially agree with your old pastor.
That is to say, Father Martin Luther was certainly a model or type of false prophet in that sense. There have been others…
True as well, in those matters he was terribly misguided.
S
Seamus_L
Guest
French bishops protected many Huguenots from mob violence, and when one of the Massacre ringleaders appeared in Rome, the Pope told him he would not bless a murderer. The Te Deum was not sung to commemorate the Massacre, as some Protestants claim, but rather because the royal family escaped an assassination attempt.
H
Hesychios
Guest
L
Leonius
Guest
How do you know I am not using unbiased sources you have not even read the books I recommended, nor do you know the other books I have read?
The point I was making is that you cannot simply assume someone is biased because they are Catholic and that secular writers are without bias simply because they are not.
What you are revealing is that you are prejudiced against Catholics assuming as you do that they are all liars who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
While you have this prejudice it is a waste of time talking with you.
H
Hesychios
Guest
You don’t have to talk to me.
It is obvious you know nothing about me, and it is obvious you try to spin history for your own purposes, as evidenced by your answers here. Objectivity is not your style.
Have a great day.
S
Sword_Brethren
Guest
You should try other sites, because online I have heard protestant’s birgoty against the Holy Catholic Church
S
Sword_Brethren
Guest
Franco was no Hitler. In the Spanish Civil War one had the choice between Communist forces or those of Franco. Spanish communists forces murdered almost 7000 catholic nuns, priests, religious brothers, seminarians, and they murdered 13 Catholic bishops!
- Status